Have a thin shell concrete structure I designed for near Austin TX about a year ago. Owner been pulling financing and contractors together. He’s had interest and prices from a number of shell builders. The basic process is that an insulated concrete shell is built with an inflatable form and then all the other stuff–interior walls, elec, plumb, hvac, etc, etc–is done rather conventionally. In rough terms, the shell is about half the work and the rest of it the other half.
This owner swears he can’t find a single contractor to be GC and do the project. Says they all show interest and then back out be/c they don’t want to sub such a significant portion to a shell contractor they don’t know, but they don’t have the equipment/bkg to do that part themselves. He’s tired of trying to make it happen and ready to abandon this approach and go conventional. Asked if I’d redesign for this.
I’ve never seen this happen this way, and have a bunch of other projects that work successfully with the same setup. They haven’t had any obvious problems finding qualified contractors.
Is he just not looking in the right places? Is Austin different? Is he perhaps sending out other signals unique to him that would turn people away? I come from a philosophy that if something works one place and not another, we know it’s at least possible to work, and then gotta identify the meaningful differences. Wonder what he’s doing that other’s aren’t…
Wouldn’t y’all think that by working through the NAHB or other local org you’d be able to find someone for just about any legitimate project?
Replies
I'd assume that the shell construction requires specialized tools, equipment, and materials, and I'd locate the suppliers of those items and find out who their customers are... i.e. who makes the inflatable forms and who in Austin has bought one?
Shell construction isn't the hangup. We know the suppliers and he's received legit bids. The rest of the house doesn't require specialized tools, materials, or knowledge. Plumbing is plumbing. Wiring is wiring.
Cloud,
IIRC, Allen...Edwards(?) over at JLC is down Tejas way. If he won't do it, there's something weird with your client.
SamT
Sam, you have any further contact info? I went there and looked a bit, but didn't really know where to look. Have a further hint? Should we play a game of "getting warmer, getting colder"?Thanks!Jim
http://www.aedwards.com/
Almost any thread in the business section.Here is one.Page 4 he has a number of posts. Like BT click on the name and you can email him.http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25682
Edited 2/25/2005 10:21 am ET by Bill Hartmann
Jim-
Allan's actually in Houston, and works in a very small, defined area there. When I visited him, we saw four of his ongoing projects within a round-trip of around 3 miles. The chances of getting him to go to Austin are about the same as a snowball's chance in he$$.
The Woodlands, where my friend lives, is around 30 miles from where Allan builds, and he considers that an amazing commute- mentioned something about "all the way out there"....lol. So I'd say Austin is out oif the picture seeing as how its over a two-hour ride.
If you'd still like to try and reach him, let me know- I've got his cell number around here somewhere.
Bob
You would think. But people are strange creatures. You will never know about them.
Has the HO been in contact with any GC that have done this type of project before? If he has I would guess its the HO. If not it might be the GCs.
Kipherr
As I think through this, I'm heading in the same direction. Maybe people backed out be/c of him, and used the technology as a convenient excuse. He was a rather....particular....client. I had to "lecture" him occasionally about over-reaching on features and size, but he wanted what he wanted and got kinda insistent about it. I've always been concerned that he doesn't know how to compromise on features...that could be coming through with the contractors.Besides telling him that I won't do the design of a conventional structure for him (if he is really headed in that direction, I'd recommend a design-build firm so that the limits are clear from the get-go), I don't know what to say. It should be possible to find a contractor unless he's turning them off. The design is a nice one, if I do say so myself, and I'd hate to see it disappear...what a waste.
Tell him I'll do it. I want a check for 100k up front and another 50k for each month that I work on it. He can have anything he wants and he'll pay cost on it.
I (or my assistant) can only work 4 days per week on it.
Now you've found a contractor.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Well, I can see why a contractor wouldn't want to assume responsibility for a structural project as unusual as that, Jim, ESPECIALLY if I had to rely on a sub contractor I don't know for such a major part of it. You have complete faith in that forming system because you've used it, but for many of us it's a great unknown.
Why would a contractor put his reputation on the line for an unknown? It's hard enough pleasing every customer using building techniques that are familliar. The potential rewards would have to be pretty enticing.
What about this? Could the customer hire the sub to errect the shell, then hire a GC to complete the project? I know, I know, that leaves a lot of room for finger pointing later on, but really, that's what you're asking the GC to do isn't it? Take responsibility for something he's unfamilliar with?
I think you described the typical arrangement. It's been done many times that way. The GC isn't responsible for the shell contractor and doesn't usually hire them. But someone's gotta pull permits, arrange rough grading, cut in the road, bring in utilities, etc., so there's bound to be some overlap.If this was the first one ever, I'd understand difficulties. But given how many times it's been done successfully other places, I keep wondering what's unique here. Something's gotta be different...client, location, ???
How's the ecomony in Austin?If things are booming I can understand GC's choosing to make their eprofit on stick frames rather than domes. Fewer unknowns.I echo the advice to find if the HO can contract directly with a "domer" to erect the thin shell and then call in a contractor to finish it off. Could this work?
Jon Blakemore
"If this was the first one ever, I'd understand difficulties. But given how many times it's been done successfully other places, I keep wondering what's unique here."
Just because it's been done sucessfully other places doesn't mean I'd be able to do it sucessfully. Many unusual types of building have been done sucessfully - straw bale, thatched roof, earth sheltered, log cabin, SIP, timber frame, steel skinned, and on and on. But if I have no personal experience with something, I'm a lot less inclined to risk my reputation, or tie up a significant part of my schedule on it when there are other projects that I am more familliar with.
Maybe you're having trouble seeing it from this perspective because you are a risk taker by nature. Many of us live close enough to the edge performing what others consider mundane tasks. Heck, I saw a guy yesterday, about 40, who was totally over his head serving coffee to people at the Starbucks in our local Safeway. We are all comfortable with different levels of risk.
Certainly you recognize how rare a home like yours is when considered against the thousands of conventionally built homes on this continent every year. And even at that, I bet more people go under than succeed as full time home builders even. Serious businesspeople would probably laugh to know the number of sleepless nights a small time contractor spends, worrying about subs performances or if the roofer will show up on time, or about cash flow needed to pay help/suppliers.
I'm not surprised at all that you have trouble finding established contractors to take on an unusual project like that.
(I think it would be a pretty cool thing to work on, though!) <bfg>
jim.. if i was in Austen , i'd do it... but i'd charge a premium for the unknown..
and i'd get some tickets for Austen City LimitsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore