Replies

1. 
   Ralph_Wicklund | Jan 24, 2001 04:53am | #1

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   Why is it that your contractor wants to use shims behind the hinges of prehungs? Unless something happened during the factory build that they (manufacturer) didn't catch, those doors come nicely hung and square in their jambs. Personally, I think a little more care in the installation, plumb, level and properly SHIMMED behind the jambs would take care of the problem.

1. 
   Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Jan 24, 2001 05:20am | #2

   *About the only time I've done this is if I have accidently cut the hinge mortise too deep. Gary Katz had a better solution when this happens. He fills the mortise with sawdust. I tried this and I like it better than cardboard.

1. 
   B_Novick | Jan 24, 2001 05:36am | #3

   *Mad Dog,How do you fill it with saw dust. Doesn't just fall out before you get the hinge butt installed?Barry

1. 
   David_Taylor | Jan 24, 2001 07:32am | #4

   *I agree that proper shimming is needed behind the jamb not the hinge. One thing I see all the time is an improperly shimmed door with a 3" screw in the jamb side of each hinge. If the screws are overtightened then the door becomes hingebound. Essencially the door likes to rest at 2" open. Proper shimming is the solution to improper framing. Getting the hingeside door openings plumb is key. Or you go the sloppy shim, cranking screw, shimming hinge, hammering lockside jamb so the door closes route.Either way.David

1. 
   Jim_Walters | Jan 24, 2001 01:05pm | #5

   *Visable cardboard behind a prehung hinge would tell me two things. one..the hinge was ok in the first place. ( I'm visulizing the hinge standing proud of it's inset) Two.. being a double door, the guy didn't know how to set it properly as they are a bit more difficult than a normal single door. I've had to manipulate a bit from time to time, but cardboard?I would wonder about the rest of the house and the unseen things.

2. 
   Ryan_C | Jan 24, 2001 02:20pm | #6

   *Agreed, if it's a new house, the door could have been hung better. But I've seen shims used in new construction alot. Usually can't see them though. That's why the hing pins are bigger than the rest of the hinge right? To hide the shims?But if he's trying to fix a sticking door for you, a cardboard shim is right on. Maybe a magic marker on the exposed edge would pretty it up for you.

3. 
   Dave_Richeson | Jan 25, 2001 12:09am | #7

   *Sounds like the doors were improperly installed and were hing bound as mentioned above. If they are alredy cased inside, try removing the cassing. Loosen the long hing screws and properly shim the jamb behind the hinges. If a newer exterior door is severly hinge bound it will also pinch or pull on the vinyl weather strip on the exterior hing side of the jamb. Whatever the case, have it corrected now while your buider is still on site. Everybody hates call backs. Dave

4. 
   MGray | Jan 25, 2001 05:05am | #8

   *Allow me to add some information . . .This problem was found on walk-through. The door trim is painted, and we are within a week (hopefully) of closing on this house. Jim is right-the hinges (all three) are standing proud of their inset. The cardboard fills the mortise (is that the correct term?) and the hinges are flush with the door jamb. That isn't the only problem with this door. Daylight can be seen between the door and weatherstrip from the top down about 24". From my experience with this contractor, I expect him to patch in a 24" length of weatherstrip to fill the void. Should we allow a patch job on this door, or insist on door casing being removed so that the jamb can be shimmed properly? Thanks for your input.

5. 
   GACC_DAllas | Jan 25, 2001 05:18am | #9

   *Sounds like the doors are too narrrow for the jamb. If the shim is flush with the jamb and the back of the hinge is sitting on top of the jamb you probably have at least a quarter inch reveal between the door and the jamb. That's way too much. You should be able to slide a nickel in the gap of an exterior jamb and door, but no more than that. And no less than that either or you may have trouble with your doors sticking later.I've seen it before with prehung doors. Most that I have seen in the last few years are garbage. Not the doors themselves or the jambs, but the way they hang the doors. It's like they hired a bunch of kids and set them loose in the factory. Manufacturing has really gone down hill.This is a new home. Don't accept a "patch and repair". There will be enough of that after normal wear and tear years down the line.To save the time and cost of replacing the entire thing, you might suggest that the builder have the manufacturer send out a wider t-astrigel (that vertical piece of wood between the two doors). Then he can remove the cardboard, get the reveals proper and take up the gap with the wider t-astrigel. Just a suggestion.By the way......cardboard shims have been used behind hinges since doors were first hung on hinges. I've taken apart 80 year old doors and jambs during remodels and found cardboard behind the hinges. The cardboard is always cut flush with the edge of the jamb and then caulked during painting. The cardboard by itself is not a red flag.Ed. Williams

6. 
   Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Jan 25, 2001 05:53am | #10

   *B,I usually find out that the mortise is too deep right after I cut it while the door is still resting on its side in my door bench. I just grab a handfull of sawdust and layer it in the mortise, then I attach my hinge.

7. 
   Dave_Otto | Jan 25, 2001 06:16am | #11

   *Do not allow him to fill that void with more weatherstripping. It definitely sounds like an improper installation. If the builder claims that the door is faulty, have him deal with the manufacturer. This will either call his bluff or it may be that the door was manufactured out of square.

8. 
   lonecat | Jan 25, 2001 07:53am | #12

   *I've always felt that the exterior doors should exhibit the best workmanship in the whole place. Your contractor doesn't feel the same way. He should tear it out and start over if he has to to get it right. Otherwise, like others have said, butts have been shimmed with cardboard since cardboard was invented. Tradition was to use the box they came in for the shim stock.

9. 
   Jim_Walters | Jan 25, 2001 12:25pm | #13

   *I agree with Dallas about the manufacturing part, but to see a brand new exterior double door with cardboard pushing the hinges proud would agrevate most homeowners I've delt with.I use Anderson or Peachtree, and never buy a cheepy exterior door.Some of these guys come knocked down in a box, the carpenter puts it together before he hangs it. If so, he may have goofed putting it together. If he set it in the opening and noticed the gap was too wide, he should have cut the header piece back a bit until the thing worked. Either way, knocked down or pre-hung it should have been fixed long before you layed eyes on it. If you can see light between the doors, I hope you live in a warm climate. I would not let this pass. Sometimes a homeowner will pick a job to pieces and drive everyone nuts, but in this instance you've got a righteous complaint. IMO http://www.jjwalters.com

10. 
    calvin_ | Jan 25, 2001 01:37pm | #14

    *Who was the manufacturer of the door? If you get no satisfaction from the builder, some of the distributors have service crews which will troubleshoot the problem. Get it right, paint or closing aside.

11. 
    Ryan_C | Jan 25, 2001 01:49pm | #15

    *If all three hinges are shimmed, it sounds like Ed's got it right. The door must be too narrow, or the jamb header is too long or not tight against one of the side jambs. I bought several interior hollow core doors once that came from the factory with cardboard shims behind some of the hinges. Maybe this isn't something the contractor did to fix a bad door.And Ed's idea of an oversized astrigal is one I never would have thought of.

12. 
    Art_B | Jan 25, 2001 04:26pm | #16

    *I've built and installed a number of 200# carved doors with 2x6 or 3x6 oak jambs (planed on site to correct thickness to fit to framing), and do not shim between the jamb and framing, so occasionally shim the hinges for better finish fit if I ran the planer 1/16 too thin. What I use for hinge shims is formica cut to the size of the hinge with finished edges. No complaints.

13. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Jan 25, 2001 06:06pm | #17

    *MD, What, if, after the door is hung, someone has to take the hinge off, like the painter maybe? I like cardboard for interior doors, tar paper for exterior.Does sound like this particular door was not hung quite right, though.

14. 
    J_Goolsby | Jan 25, 2001 10:07pm | #18

    *MGray, If you can see daylight & there's shims behind the hinges this guy (the contractor) does NOT know how to install a pre-hung, there's a problem somewhere else (wall or door out of plumb), or the lack of his presence on the job contributed to this happening. I would insist it be corrected (whatever it takes- new door or resetting that one if it's not boogered up on reset). By the way, take this advice if no other, do a THOROUGH walk-thru (and demand any repairs) before payment! GET A WARRANTY IN WRITING!

15. 
    Joe_Hennessey | Jan 26, 2001 04:00am | #19

    *Good spot for your business card too.....so someone some day will know who dunit. Joe H

16. 
    Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Jan 26, 2001 04:18am | #20

    *Good point BB.

17. 
    Pro-Dek | Jan 26, 2001 09:03pm | #21

    *"Daylight can be seen between the door and the weatherstrip" Tell that hacker to remove the door and install it properly.It is definitely out of plumb in two directions.If he can't do it have him hire someone that can. Bob

18. 
    MGray | Jan 28, 2001 03:49am | #22

    *Thanks to all who responded. We'll follow your advice. This web-site has been invaluable to us while our house was under construction.

19. 
    M._Gray | Feb 15, 2001 11:33pm | #23

    *Thought I'd let all of you know the resolution to this problem.The company that sold this door to our contractor put in a wider t-astrigel. The young man who did the work told me that it was hung wrong. There was a sizable gap between the threshold and jamb, and the door was hung out of plumb. He said that his company gets called to all the houses that our contractor builds--to correct the doors. You'd think they would tell him to take his business elsewhere.Thanks, again, for all your help.

2. 
   MGray | Feb 15, 2001 11:33pm | #24

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   I would like to know what you experts think of using cardboard to shim exterior door hinges. My contractor says this is standard practice and will be a permanent fix for my pre-hung double doors. The cardboard can be easily seen--it appears to be about 1/8" thick. This is our retirement home, and I don't want to have to fix these doors a few years down the road. But, I also don't want to be overly picky about this. What do you think?