i am going to replace my “roll-up” garage door with carriage doors, hung from hinges.
what type/how many hinges will i need to hold a door made of 8/4 cedar with lites, 7′ tall by 4′ wide….i figure between 100 and 200 lbs. each? also, should i somehow beef up the existing doubled up 2 x 4 posts on either side?
thanks all
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Replies
R U hanging them from the posts or from a trim jamb?
U could add stability by using wall board on the inside as well as the exterior.
My guess is that these will be more like 240# or more - each
Four four inch butt hinges could do it, but in some situations a T-hinge is the better choice. If close tolerances and heavy useage is anticipated, look for bearing butt hinges
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thanks piffin,do you mean "strap" hinges?....i'm going to hang the doors from a 3/4" trim attatched to the studs.
Use screws long enbough to get thru to the studding then.No, I meant T hinges or butt hinges. A strap hinge is halfway similar to a T - on the one side. The other side of a T hinge is like the butt hinge.http://www.stainless-hinges.com/look halfway down the page. picture of piano, then strap, then T
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You are going to have a ton of weight on those hinges. Over time I think you'll have problems with them sagging. Also they won't be the best at sealing out the weather, don't know if that matters where you live.
I have not seen any true carriage house doors for a long time. You can replicate the carriage house look but do them as over head doors. Most do a carriage house style but leave off the faux hinges and handles, some do them though.
"...they won't be the best at sealing out the weather..."
I don't understand your thinking. Seems to me that you can build carriage doors just like house doors, with full weatherstripping. I don't have experience with weather-sealed overhead doors but I haven't been able to find anything to sufficiently seal mine (granted - old & funky & in an area where garage insulation is not critical - Nor Cal).
Regarding hinges - I think these will do the job without sagging:
View Image
(The one on the left - 5"x4.25", supports a 1,000# door - the one on the right is a bit of overkill at 20,000# capacity - LOL.)
I am planning to do the same thing on my garage. The incentives are first & foremost to get rid of the *&%# door rails. My space is too small and the rails make it really hard to access some of my sood stock storage. Second I get an extra foot of door height (long story). Third, I'll get better insulation & weatherstripping. That's why I've been researching heavy duty hinges and am interested in your comments about weathersealing.
Edited 1/22/2006 12:18 am by wrudiger
check out the straps in the Photo Gallery thread "stonework worth seeing"...on an outhouse up at Camp Muir on Mt Rainier
I hung those doors, so i could give you a little info about the hinges- I can't remember the manufacturer right now, but the strap part was about 24" long, and the pin in the hinge was about 1/2" diameter. the other side of the hinge was like a standard butt hinge, mortised into the door. that door weighed about 200 lbs (it was about 2" thick, with all thread reinforcements in several places). But the doors we put in last year with those hinges had sagged when we got back this year, and had to be planed and mortised deeper.
Whatever you do, attach the stationary part of the hinge to the post as securely as you possibly can. Bolts would be better than screws, but if you use screws, use long, high quality ones.
zak
wrudiger....where'd you find these?
thanks for you input
http://www.brookfieldindustries.com/wpage.htm
"For use on lead filled radiation doors, vault doors and heavy architectural gates. Also any door application where the hinges will be subjected to severe loads from a blast pressure, seismic event, or high wind velocities."
They go up to a 738# hinge that will support a 75,000# door. Like I said, a bit of overkill, but pretty cool. The item in the picture is the W500-HD, the only one that looks like it makes sense for residential.
wow!they are $225/each...they have a non-vertical adjustment hinge for $125/each....maybe too expensive at this point. any other ideas?
D Day,
Was the arch top garage door and jamb in your picture retrofit to a square opening? I was asked whether it is possible to convert three standard square garage doors to arch garage doors and jambs and I was trying to think of way to do it without having to raise the header. The obvious issues is if I fabricate an eyebrow arch jamb using the existing header, the sides would fall below the current top and may be too low for the cars to pass.
Thanks
Frank R.
I'm gonna do the same thing on my shop, upcoming. A pair of 3-6 doors, probably using strap hinges. There's a new visitor center in the state park here and they used some very cool old-timey straps on the doors. I'll git a pic' later today and post it.
For a customer I hung a 4-0 x 7-0 door that weighed about 250 pounds. He had already bought 4 butt hinges (actually, they were supplied by the door maker, I think). There is deflection in any butt hinge when the load is heavy enough, and those were no exception. I think he was able to buy some commercial grade butts to replace the originals, and maybe that fixed it. If you're using butts get them as heavy as possible, and use an 8/4 jamb.
merlvern.......I did the same thing you are talkin about . There was a meat packing plant near that was being torn down and for $5.00 each I bought the hinges off of walk in refers best thirty dollars I ever spent . One fo the greatest compliments I ever had was over hearing two women in a grocery store produce isle one saying to the other " I'am going to have my husbnd drive by and look at those doors they are beautiful." and she told the other women the address and it was mine.
thanks everyone.....i'm really exited to get rid of the "rails"....
looking forward to getting this done.
Not sure where you are located as your profile was not filled out. Here in New England we have a problem with Carrige House Doors...snow. So you get 12-14" of snow. snow stops the doors from opening. Go to get the snowblower out. Snow stops the doors from opening. Hmmm now what.
I have seen roll up type doors tha look EXACTLY like carrige house doors. FWIW
Also if there is a car parked outside in the driweway in close proximity, you have to move it to fully open the doors.
In all fairness these things may not be considerations for you. Just food for thought is all. I have personally never found them to be practical.
Good luck with your project
Edited 1/23/2006 12:44 pm ET by xosder11
and they (roll-up) doors look great, it's the "head" room in the garage/shop that i need. i only have a 10'x20' space and need the overhead room for storage.i'm in new jersey....yes, lots of snow, just have to remember to keep a shovel in the house....hadn't thought of that, thanks, you make a good point.
also see my edit about car parked. Not sure how big you driveway is or how many cars typically parked. Good luck.BTW don't mean to be mr. negativity. There is great advantages in terms of head height and I like to swing them open. It's different and looks cool when they are left open.
Edited 1/23/2006 12:50 pm ET by xosder11
I live in an older neighborhood where there are still some garages (and even a few carriage houses) with the original doors. Most of the ones I've seen are sort of a bifold design, where each side is made of two sections that are supported by a horizontal track along the top of the opening. They'd be more work to build, and would have more joints to let the weather in, but they'd be easier to open and close and wouldn't take up so much room when they are standing open.
In your application, assuming you also have a regular passage door into the garage that you normally use to go in and out, I can imagine the big doors won't be used that often - only when you have to move big things in and out - so the extra complexity may not be worth it.
Our first house had the bifold doors – two doors with two 4ft panels, 16 foot opening in total. After 75 years of use, they didn't open so smoothly. I converted them to carriage type doors, with a 3-inch caster on each to take the weight. Worked very well, except for when there was snow.
Edited 1/23/2006 2:57 pm ET by SCaseria
merlvern,
Glad I found your post. I'm also from NJ (Medford and am planning to build carrage doors too.
I am converting my garage to a game room and need to get rid of the rails. Also the doors will allow me to keep two feet of storage space right behind the doors. I have talked to several garage door subs and they all say we cannot just run the rails vertically up to the 11 foot ceiling to shorten the run into the room.
Where did you get your plans? Are they the same as in FineHomebuilding? Would love to pics of your project.
Good luck!
Larry
larry,the basic plan i'm using is based on what i saw on the "concord cottage" project on TOH. the only issue that still remains is the hinges. these doors are going to be extremely heavy.....i imagine for you, you might even want to sandwich some rigid insulation where you can, this being a game room for you. are you going to include "lites"? basically, the doors are cedar and most of the joinery consists of broad/long mortise and tenon joints in the rails and stiles, with vertical boards for the field....sort of a wainscott look.http://www.realcarriagedoors.com/images/gallery/CT-Corte-Madera.jpgmine will be painted. these folks do good work, but want about $4500 for these doors.....not installed.anyhow, the hingeshttp://www.stainless-hinges.com/stainless_butt_hinges.htmlthe person i spoke with says to use 4 hinges/side, and suggests bolts rather that screws (#14...i think these are 1/4" shaft).another post suggested http://www.brookfieldindustries.com/wpage.htm, these would definately handle the weight, but they suggested making a "fletch" post in the framing to secure, and the hinges are $223/each.lastly, i can suggest
http://www.monteath.com/lumber.html
great lumber, 8/4 if you want and they'll work with you.let me know if this helpsjohn
Our home was built in 1937. Bought the house in 2002 and replaced the original outswing (carriage??) doors in 2004. Here is a picture of the finished product. This is a detached garage.
I bought the doors through Lowes from a company called Madawaska Doors. They cost around $1100 for both (7 feet tall, 8 feet wide each including the astrigal). They look just like the originals. I purchased some 5"x5" stainless steel ball bearing butt hinges. The door installer said the originiall door jam was probably old growth douglas fir and was still in great shape.
The picture was taken when we were having the white painted removed from our home. If you want to learn more about that...let me know. It was well worth the time/effort/money!
--Matt
matt,thanks for writing.couple of questions
1)what are the doors made of
2)how heavy are they
3)have the sagged/deflected
4)what's the door jam?...double up 2x? for instance
5)any reason you hung the hinges with the hinge "plates" mortised into the door rather than on the exterior of the jam/door
6)what did you fasten the hinges withthanks
I should preface my answers by saying that the door installer has been installing doors since 1956. So, I trusted a lot of what he said. I am no expert and there may be some differences in opinion.
1)what are the doors made of--The doors are mad out of cedar.
2)how heavy are they--I don't know an exact weight, but I was able to move them by myself, though they were a bit heavy and awkward. I would estimate around 150#
3)have the sagged/deflected--No. That was a concern of mine, but the door installer looked at the jam and said I wouldn't have a problem, that the wood they used back in 1937 was typically old growth and there was no signs of rotting or deterioriation of any kind. The only problem I have had was last winter when it snowed it melted and then refrooze and some ice developed between the door and the threshold. A hair dryer took care of it. I think snow in general is a reason not to install doors like this since you'll have to shovel them in order to open them.
4)what's the door jam?...double up 2x? for instance--The door jam is original to the garage. It's 5/4 x 8" x 7' tall. It secured to the block/brick wall with screws and masonry nails. I seriously tried to remove it and it wouldn't budge. It is solid. I did reinforce the header between the jams to make sure the weight of the doors wouldn't pull them down...if that makes sense.
5)any reason you hung the hinges with the hinge "plates" mortised into the door rather than on the exterior of the jam/door--The original doors had strap hinges and there were mortises for those hinges in the jam. The door installer used the mortises in the jam that were already there and went ahead and did the doors as well. No reason that I know of. I bought the hinges from this place: http://gatelatchusa.com/s-cart/bearing_hinges.phtml The hinges I have include 4 bearings, not 2 as mentioned. They are solid.
6)what did you fasten the hinges with--Used some 1" screws for the jam and 1.5" scres for the door.
John,
My fine wood working skills are very limited. Are your plans available from TOH? There were some interesting plans in the Jan '05 FHB. The article was a little too short. The author planned 3/4 and possibly 5/4 down to 11/16 to have a total thickness of the three layers for the door of 2.25". I wonder why he didn't just use three layers of 3/4. Was it to give better gluing surfaces? Once I find the right plans I might build just one and then I'll either have some nice looking firewood or the courage to make the other three.
Thanks, Larry
larry,no, no plans, i'm just winging it....but it's starting to look great.the 3 layers probably is for the core (1 layer) sandwiched by the outer 2 layers of rail and stile. this is done either for insulation...i've seen the "core" with a layer of rigid, or to add rigidity. the biggest thing to look out for is the "racking" of the door or "parallelogramming" of the door over time. it must be kept square. probably the best way to avoid this is to make REALLY beefy mortises, or if you're design allows, a diagonal board (corner to corner). when you "layer the construction", it gives you the opportunity to have grains at right angles, contributing to the stability. keep in mind though, you cant really glue "field" boards, as you wouldn't for a frame and panel door, otherwise you get restrictions on contraction.larry, e-mail me your address if you want,....i think i'm going to whip up some plans, and i'll send you a copy. i'll let you know when i get the "most" satisfactory idea for hinges....
I only had an 8'w x 7'h single garage door opening to my shop. Cars weren't going to go in there except to be worked on, so my primary need was leak-tightness and insulation. Having no door rails was a bonus.
My insulated carriage doors were dead easy, using a "stressed skin" design:
-dry 2x6s jointed flat to use as "casing", basically just to shim the rough opening plumb. Shimmed and attached with screws to the RO.
-2x6 jointed and ripped down to 4" for the hinge-side of each door box frame
-1x6s jointed and ripped to 4" for the top, bottom and side opposite the hinge
-3/8" CDX ply as the inside skin and a 1/2" pre-finished OSB "siding" 4x8 panel for the front, lapping over the frame on both front and back
- 2 layers of 2" EPS foam sheets in the middle, cut carefully to fit, then glued to all edges, to the front and back panel and to each other with canned foam
- all joints polyurethane glued and screwed
- panels attached to the frame with PU glue and nails (nail heads to be hidden later by applied trim)
- a 2x6 for an "astragal", mounted to one of the doors
- "door stop" ripped from 2x stock, with a simple kerf to hold the weatherstripping. I included a doorstop strip made from 5/4 ACQ-treated lumber, Tapcon'd to the floor slab
- the "stationary" door (w/astragal) is pinned at the bottom onlyon the inside using gate bolt hardware. A similar centre-mounted gate bolt holds the 2nd door to the first. I added a similar bottom pin on the inside of the 2nd door in case it was needed, but it wasn't: the doors seal fine without it.
The doors are lightweight, stiff and swing nicely on three ordinary hinges, and seal tight. I threw them together one night after work, and had them hung and weatherstripped the next night.
Given what I've experienced with mine, I wouldn't be surprised if the same concept worked for a larger door. You'd need to splice the panels though, and you'd have to do that carefully to maintain adequate stiffness.
A sloped apron at the entrance to the garage will make snow less of a problem. I also made sure my garage roof overhang was large to shelter the door. No windows as it faces north anyway.
I built out-swinging doors for my new garage. The RO for the doors wa 8' hi x 9' wide. Used 5 or 6" (can't remember) steel butt hinges. I had a steel fab shop weld one leaf of each hinge (3 per door) to a rectagular angle-iron frame, and punch 1/4" holes in that frame all the way around. Also had a corner-to-corner strap to prevent the frame from lozenging under the weight.
I mountd the frame to the garage, screwing through to the studs backing the opening. I applied mahogany flooring to the angle-iron frame, on the diagonal, and put trim pieces (rails and stile) over the top.
Looks great, hasn't sagged.
i live in NJ so get a bit of snow. i had the garage built with an equipment door at the side. So when it snows, i bring the blower out the side and across the front of the garage -- then can swing the doors open.
I also put on automatic door opener/closer: mount the thing with the electric motor end closer to the doors, and use some angle-iron push-rods to move the doors in/out. Works perfectly, and very easily since the openers aren't having to lift the wieght of the doors.
Bob Chapman
John,
Sorry it's taken so long to find the issue. It was the Dec 2005 FHB page 86-89. You should look at it as he also uses three layers but dosen't't have to make any mortises.
I don't know why he plans the stock down as opposed to using standard 3/4 or 5/4. Email me your fax and I'll send you the plans.
-Larry
i faxed the plans to you.....get them?
yes and they lookj good. email me fax number and I'll send you the plans from the dec 2005 fhb. they were designed with three layers too but no mortises.
Hi Merlvern,
Did you finish the doors? How did they turn out?
Hi there!
I am remodeling and wish to do the swing out carriage style garage door . . . . . from the posts it looks like you may some plans for these? Would it be at all possible for you to email them? I would love to, but can't afford the 5-6K the big companies want to build these doors and I'm hoping to have a carpenter friend build them for me. He's never done one before so I told him I'd try to find some info on it. Thanks so much for any help!
Janette
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