Replies

1. 
   davidmeiland | Oct 13, 2006 07:45pm | #1

   I'm not sure what you mean by 'A' frame... but does the existing room have a structural ridge beam?

1. 
   leincarp | Oct 14, 2006 03:22am | #5

   Yes, I believe the room has a structural ridge beam, but the gable end wall on the one side is full of windows.

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 14, 2006 06:19pm | #14

   IF it is a structural ridge, it HAS to be supported somehow. if there are windows under it directly, then the header spanning that openning MUST have been designed to support the load and transfer that load to foundation.Adding a second structural ridge for a larger load to the same header is not a safe practice without getting it designed by a competant engineer 

    

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2. 
   Framer | Oct 13, 2006 08:13pm | #2

   There are a few options here.

   The outside of the wall that you’re adding on to has to have a post in there supporting a structural ridge since there are no collar ties. If you want to add 20' to that room and then take out the whole wall and have a 34' room, you will have a problem. Or you can get a 34' I-beam to span both rooms to support both roofs. Big money!

   If you are going to leave some of the wall where the center of the structural ridge is, you would either have to butt the new structural ridge and make sure you have enough width to post underneath both of them down to the foundation or put it underneath.

   Can you see the structural ridge in the existing room?

   Joe Carola
1. 
   leincarp | Oct 14, 2006 03:24am | #6

   As if yet, I can't see the ridge, but I believe it is structural.  Also, the one gable end wall is full if windows right down the center. Could there be a header detail that supports this end?

   Thanks for your help.

1. 
   Hainesportwoodworker | Oct 14, 2006 03:58am | #9

   Yes, the load can be transfered down over the windows - see my other post and picture

2. 
   Framer | Oct 14, 2006 04:27am | #10

   >> Also, the one gable end wall is full if windows right down the center. Could there be a header detail that supports this end? <<Yes there can. We do this all the time. Is that wall going to stay wher the center is or will the whole wall be gone?Joe Carola

1. 
   leincarp | Oct 17, 2006 02:47am | #30

   The whole wall will be gone.

3. 
   Tomrocks21212 | Oct 13, 2006 10:49pm | #3

   Some years back, I bid a cathedral ceiling without ties. The archy specced a double 2x12, flat, to replace the 2x6 top plates. His reasoning was that the horizontal beam this created would resist the thrust of the rafters. THere may have been a steel flitch in there too, can't recall. It does make sense, but for your peace of mind and the inspector's satisfaction, I'd get an architect or engineer to size the beam and detail its construction.
   Structurally, it seems like a workable idea, but it'll wreak havoc on your rafter tails.

1. 
   leincarp | Oct 14, 2006 03:26am | #7

   Thanks for your help.  It is an interesting idea, I'll see if I can get my architect to give it a shot.

4. 
   Piffin | Oct 13, 2006 11:02pm | #4

   An engineered ridge beam, rafter ties, or scissors trusses are the three ways of holding a package up and together.

   Collar ties is a term that gets misused.

    

    

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1. 
   Brian | Oct 17, 2006 02:56am | #31

   ... and the engineered beam can be an lvl - I did a 12/12 roof and the 18" ridge beam (lvl - 3 ply) spanned 14'  Rafters spanned 16'  Not big money at all.  Scaffolding to carry the beam up by hand...

    Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!

5. 
   Hainesportwoodworker | Oct 14, 2006 03:56am | #8

   We just did a cathedral ceiling - no collar ties - I think the span is about 20' or so. The ridge beam is a 5 1/2" x 11 1/2" Paralam. The post supports are unique in that the load on the back one is transfered down through another horizontal paralam in the wall. The front post rests on an angled beam built up of 2x10's. See picture

1. 
   grahammay | Oct 14, 2006 01:53pm | #12

   What kind of lift are you using to lift the ridge into place?

1. 
   Stilletto | Oct 14, 2006 01:58pm | #13

   I call them vermettis,  they are telescoping lifts.  Operated by a hand cranked  cable winch type deal.  Great tool for the job.  I used one to lift a 24' long by 16" 2 ply lvl into place on an addition,  the beam carried a cross vaulted ceiling.   

    

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 14, 2006 06:45pm | #16

   Do you have a better name? A Google search didn't go far with that one 

    

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1. 
   Stilletto | Oct 14, 2006 07:11pm | #17

   No I don't,  I know that I borrow them from a local union iron worker shop.  They use them for setting I beams and other commercial applications. 

   They are nice but they take two or three guys to get into and back out of the house. 

     

    

2. 
   KirkpatrickFramer | Oct 14, 2006 07:49pm | #18

   I've used those lifts before several times also. Always check the cable, and use two. I had a cable snap while hoisting a 7x14x20 paralam and stupid me had a nailgun directly under the beam.Got it up to 10' of the slab when the cable broke, the beam came crashing down and shattered the brand new Hitachi. I brought them back to the shop where I rented them along with an invoice for the nailgun. They apologized and admitted they hadn't checked them over since the last guy returned them and refunded my money.My Dad was at the job when this happened, and had walked under the beam as we cranked, while we yelled "get out from under there !" Maybe 5 seconds later the beam was on the floor above a shattered nailgun where Dad was standing......

3. 
   Piffin | Oct 14, 2006 08:27pm | #19

   so much for the reputation of Hitachi for making near indestructable nailers...but tell dear Dad that incontinence in this case was probably a temporary condition and not to worry that he needs to choose his nursing home yet 

    

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4. 
   Stilletto | Oct 14, 2006 11:57pm | #20

   I agree use two,  the job I am talking about I only could borrow one.  The iron workers had the other 3 in Kelloggs putting beams in for a few weeks. 

   I had told my guys to put the LVL's in one at a time,  while I started gang cutting rafters.  After I finished my rafters they had both GRK'ed together and just about in the gable end pockets.   

    

5. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 15, 2006 12:25am | #21

   Wrong spellin.VERMETTEhttp://www.vermettlifts.com/main.htmGoogle suggested it right away.This one has prices.http://www.industrialladder.com/products/Vermette_Lifts.htm

   Edited 10/14/2006 5:26 pm by BillHartmann

6. 
   Stilletto | Oct 15, 2006 01:07am | #22

   Sorry about the spelling error. 

   The 758T is the model I used.  Weighs a ton.   

    

7. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 01:37am | #23

   shipping weight 388#Because of it's balanced design and folding base it can
   be loaded into a Van or Pick-up truck with ease.sure that is the one? LOL 

    

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8. 
   Stilletto | Oct 15, 2006 02:00am | #25

   Thats the one,  took two of us to put it into the back of a pickup. 

   It has wheels on the back of the pole so you can lift it by the legs until the wheels hit the bed and push it in.  But its awkward and heavy. 

     

    

9. 
   Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 02:24am | #26

   Just kidding you.
   I can imagine.
   I love a good paradox lie Andy loves a good pun.
   I had this picture in mind - I buy a lift so I don't have to lift a one ton beam and then have to lift a one ton lift...four times, to get in and out of the truck, to the job and back home 

    

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10. 
    Piffin | Oct 15, 2006 01:39am | #24

    Bookmark that industrial supply one. They have all the diffeent brands of high work stuff. Thanks Bill 

     

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11. 
    Hainesportwoodworker | Oct 15, 2006 03:27am | #28

    Call United Rentals, that's where we got ours - they have branches all over the country I think.

12. 
    KirkpatrickFramer | Oct 15, 2006 06:54am | #29

    That's where I got mine, too. United Rentals must be everywhere. NationRents has them also. They sure beat muscles as long as they're in good shape.

2. 
   Hainesportwoodworker | Oct 15, 2006 03:26am | #27

   I forgot what is the exact name of them. They can go to 24' and we were at about 23' I think. In that application they were really our only option - we couldn't get a crane back to the building without taking out 20 or 30 large trees and even then it might have been iffy. A forklift wouldn't have fit into the structure without some modifications. Those lifts are typically used for setting ductwork as they will fit through a door folded up. They are portable but you need at least two people to manhandle them and thats rough going uphill. Someone mentioned the cable - I didn't really look it over too good but for sure if that broke it would have been all over - guess my next of kin could sue United Rentals. Seriously though we put the beam on the lifts and raised each one a few inches at a time. Once we got it up there we realized we should have attached some sort of bracing to the beam so it couldnt tip over. It didnt happen but if it had I think it might have slipped off the forks or tipped the whole assembly. We figured that the top plates would possibly slow down the falling beam. Also - I wasn't giving dimension for someone else to use, simply just what we used per the architect and structural engineer.

2. 
   Piffin | Oct 14, 2006 06:41pm | #15

   I'm curious what sort of lift poles those are you used to get that bugger up there and if they are powered or hand operated.BTW, I would be carefull offering half the specs on that beam with out all of them. The OP can get the idea that he could use the same since the span is similar. Other variables can be the span of rafters, the length of the beam, the required live loads for wind and snow, and the types of fasteneing used to hold it all in place. 

    

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6. 
   Mongo | Oct 14, 2006 08:04am | #11

   Yet another option...

   A steel "inverted "V" flitch sandwiched between the rafters.

   See this link to an article a few issues ago:

   Flitch plate.