Hi,
I have a 7 x 20 porch with old t&g pine which is mostly rotted and warped and needs to come out. The porch roof does not have much overhang, and as a result, the rain blows into the porch quite often. The foundation is cinder block, so there is little ventilation / air movement under the porch. For these reasons, I plan to forgo the t&g flooring and use 1×4 or 1×6 boards spaced about the width of an 8d nail.
I was considering using cedar and I found some at Home Depot that is S1S2E. It’s 3/4″ actual thickness. One side and the edges are smooth and one side is rough sawn. The porch on my house is 1×6 syp painted and I have the same problem of rain blowing in and it gets quite slippery. So I was thinking about using this cedar with the rough sawn side up. It might be a hassle to sweep the porch, but it won’t be slippery..
I don’t yet know the joist spans on the porch (hopefully no more than 16 inches). I’m pretty sure this cedar is sold for use as trim boards, but I was wondering if it would work in this application. I’m mostly concered with the support aspect, I don’t know if it’s stronger or weaker than syp. One other thing, it’s about 20% cheaper.
I tried a little to find 5/4 inch boards, which I would be more comfortable with from a support perspective, but the few places I found on line had 1000+ sqft minimum orders and I need less than 200ft.
Here is a link to the material: http://www.homedepot.com/Lumber-Composites/h_d1/N-25ecodZ5yc1vZbqpg/R-202089034/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=cedar&storeId=10051
Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Jon
Replies
Definitely weaker, but...
Jon,
syp - southern yellow pine? The pine species vary somewhat in their strengths, but for comparison purposes, I'd consider the western red cedar to be 50 to 60 percent of mixed southern pine.
If the porch deck is rotting, I'd be sure to inspect the porch joists. If the joists need replacing, I'd consider spacing them at 12 in oc, which should give adequate support for the cedar boards.
Western Red cedar is soft. You'll notice wear fairly quickly on a porch, I would think. (On the other hand, see below) Tighter grain will help in this respect. Also, if you go this route, do not accept any sap wood (which is definitely lighter, possibly a yellowish white), as it does not contain the decay resistance of the heart wood.
Ten minutes later.... I just talked with a friend. He's bringing half a dozen cedar logs over for us to mill into 2x material. He has a cedar porch (second growth) which he says has worn well for the last eleven years, here in the Pacific northwet. your milage may vary.
Rough up will just make it absorb more water when i blows in and sits. A smooth surface will let it run off faster and dry quicker.
Cedar is mostly too soft for flooring. Better to use CVG Fir if you can get it, The resins make it somewhat rot resistant.
I have Port Orford cedar on mine. Much harder AND more rot resistant than any of the above. over a dozen years in open weather and snow and ice= now with no sign of rot and not slippery except when freshly oiled.
I did get under the porch and it looks like the joists are 16 inches oc. I emailed the western red cedar association and they said that even with 5/4 inch knotty, you needed 12 inches oc. So now I'm back to 5/4 pine and deciding whether to go with treated or untreated. They have 5/4 x 12 bullnose steps at 8 feet at Home Depot. I might rip off the bullnose and go with those. I was primarily hoping not to have to deal with the priming / painting. I could go with the composite, but that would double the price.
Thanks,
Jon
I could go with the composite, but that would double the price.
So, just use Ipe. ;)
jon
" I have a 7 x 20 porch with old t&g pine which is mostly rotted and warped and needs to come out. The porch roof does not have much overhang, and as a result, the rain blows into the porch quite often. The foundation is cinder block, so there is little ventilation / air movement under the porch. For these reasons, I plan to forgo the t&g flooring and use 1x4 or 1x6 boards spaced about the width of an 8d nail. "
A couple more thoughts on this application. If you use sq. edged and gap it, water will make its way under the porch. Now you've got damp, slow release soil underneath the flooring. Constant dampening of the flooring from the backside. Moisture situatioin like this might undue your work in short order.
Good point Calvin,
If I decided to go with the 5/4 pine, would a ship lap joint work? I could buy a tongue and groove router bit set (not sure my 1.5hp router is hefty enough for that), but I could use the table saw and run ship laps on them, I'm just not sure about the expansion / contraction. I suppose I could go back in with the t&g 4/4 pine, but I was hoping to go with 5/4 stock.
For the porch, the cost breakdown is as follows:
- 5/4 x 6 pressure treated premium decking: $225
- 5/4 x 6 composite decking, not t&g: $603
- 4/4 x 4 t&g pine: $450
- 5/4 x 12 bullnose steps: $305
- 4/4 x 4 pressure treated appearance grade pine: $205
- 4/4 x 6 s4s southern yellow pine, untreated: $450
One final option, the interior of the house was clad on the walls and ceilings with 4/4 t&g pine. I might have enough long sections harvested to use. The quality is good, but again, it's not 5/4.
Thanks,
Jon
Porch
Whatever you decide, make sure to use the right fasteners. Star-drive screws will like these offer optimal perfomance and ease of installation.
Stainless steel is recommended for use with cedar for protection against corrosion caused by the acids in the wood. Less expensive bronze coated are avialable for exterior use not in conjuncton with cedar/redwood. Specially designed fasteners are the best product for composite decks and come in many colors.
All of these fasteners are available @
http://SCREWSOLUTIONS.COM
Good luck!!
The right fastener is a nail
We do one or two porchs like this every year.
Vertical Grain Douglas Fir, Tongue and Groove flooring, painted all four sides, then installed just like any other tongue and groove flooring by toe-nailing through the tongues.
The whole thing gets painted once in place. We started adding an anti-skid addititive two years ago.
Typically they last twenty to thirty years.
Face screwing them would probably decrease the life. Because, the screw hole leaves an unprotected spot for water to pool then enter the wood. Plus, it just screams hack job on anything but a structural lumber deck.
Screws
Right, face-screwing tongue&groove flooring would obviously be "hackish". I was commenting on the installation of cedar decking and the original poster also brought up the choice of composite decking.
Thanks for the observation.
Thanks,
I haven't found t&g
Thanks,
I haven't found t&g flooring at the big boxes, I'll call the lumber yard tomorrow and see what they have. The house would not justify a big expense, however, it's the front porch and I do want it to look nice. I did decide against the cedar. Thanks again to all.
Jon
The lumberyard should have it.
The buildings we work on are historic, so we have no option but to replace in kind. So, we use 4/4 nominal vertical grain douglas fir. The joists are on 24-inch centers, and there isn't appreciable sag when you walk on it.
Your 1-1/2 hp router will handle the T&G bits if needed.
For a painted application - sticking with the original CVG Fir is not necessary, IMO. IPE is available in T&G too, I havve not painted it yet though.
I have been replacing fir with IPE here at not much more cost, because the fir got expensive and the quality went down to where I was getting a minimum 15% waste, but I have almost no culls with the IPE. Labor is more though, because of predrilling requirements
Historic Sturcutres with Archeologists involved.
The buildings I work on are owned by the Fedral Government. And the material chioces have to be original if possible. Unfortunately, even with the budget cuts over the last 20-years, cost is not an argument for not replacing in kind.
If I had my druthers, I'd install HDO plywood, and put nonskid additive in the porch paint.
And there you have it!
Your ads are beginning to get a little monotonous.
And just because it's a "star drive" screw does not mean it's in any way superior to other styles. The composition of the screw is much more important, but all of your screws are no-name look-alikes that could be made of pot metal, for all we can tell.
I recommend that folks run in the other direction.
Screw Products, Inc. Screws
Dan,
I would be more than happy to send you some Star Drive Screws of mine that I purchse from Screw Products, Inc. I have been using these for years and can tell you from first hand experience that these are not knock offs. These are the real deal. For you to steer people from this product that you have not personally used is doing the industry an injustice. These screws have made me money for the reasons of always working, never breaking and never stripping. I fine that their recess is the deepest on the market. If you suggest another star drive that you feel will out perform Screw Products, Inc. screws Let me know. I think I have tried all them and have found these to be the best. Sure willing to try something that you suggest though.
I hope your project works out on your porch.
gb
Oooo, I can see you're really hurt!! So sorry to have offended your sensibiltiies! Obviously I trust your "first hand experience" immensely!
Now go peddle your screws somewhere else.
gb
I'm a happy user of GRK's star drive finish, "deck" and structural. I'd be happy to check out what you have to offer. Unlike Dan, I don't take your posts to be ad-mongering.
Contrary to some of these con artists that can't spell "dog", you at least offer some information on the subject.
Are you a part of this screw company or a user?
Check out what he's posted -- four different threads, and all have been thinly-veiled ads for his screw business.
Like I said, he's posting ads.
Thank-you for your open-mindedness. Screw Products has been a supporter of Fine Homebuilding for a long time. I am affiliated with SCREWSOLUTIONS.COM, the site that I mentioned in my original post, I was hoping that my original post to this thread was going to help the originator with a decision, I am not hiding under any "thin veils". If you will shoot an e-mail to info@screwsolutons.com, we will get some samples out to you for your consideration.
Thanks again
If you are acting as part of a comercial entity, and offering "advice" that may lead you to profit, you are obligated to disclose your interest.
I think we've all come to accept commerial posts here with some certain stipulations on those posts.
Every post you must have a signature line that contains:
Your companies name.
Your actual NAME, and position.
A link to your company.
Think of it as a business card attached to every post. There are a few commercial posters here who do this correctly - Ted White is the name I can easily remember off the top of my head. Do a quick search of his posts to see what I'm talking about.
BTW, I like Screw Products too - I'm on their mailing list. They are one of three suppliers I will rattle off for people looking for good stuff. You need to add your affiliation to them, otherwise your posts come up as tarnished, and you tarnish the reputation of that company.
Thank-you for the "heads-up. I put my site/company name on my first post, will add the rest when I post again. Yes, Screw Products sells excellent goods, or they wouldn't be in business for 13+.
Are these rules posted on the forums somewhere, for contributors to follow??
Thanks Again,
Screwsolutions
Gary- Research and Development
Screwsolutions.com
Gary
I doubt there's a place to read the rules and regs.......................hell, there's an FAQ tab that takes you to the answers stuck there a couple yrs ago when the software was changed.
But it is something that evolved in response to some goofballs that just had to have their link or whatever on the screen free. They were too cheap to pay for an ad and usually too dumb to even write in some form of english in order to disquise the spamming.
Still, you can't keep knowledgable folks of certain products from membership-or you'd lose a ton of potential information. So I guess the real rule is something like this-say who you are and add to the discussion. If all you want to do is get a link up for free-go elsewhere.
Best of luck.
I just started a discussion of this in Forum suggestions - please help me hammer it out... You too gbaune, I'd like your input as well!
http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/help-and-feedback/forum-suggestions/rules-commercial-entities-posting-here
VERY TRUE
on that point. I love the GRK Torx head screws for almost all my screw needs. Akmost never have one break. But I let a salesman talk me into trying another brand once. Had so many snappiong off that we wasted ten times the labour compared to the matl savings. I think I still have half that biox in the shop because we switched back mid job. I only use the brand X for temporary jigs and such now.