Replies

1. 
   Mike_Smith | Oct 05, 2000 09:33pm | #1

   *
   ain't there.. cain't say..

   cedar roof.. check for flashings.. remaining thickness of shingles .. especially just below the butt of the next shingle..

   missing .. broken..

   do they crumble when you squeeze them..

   what is the pitch.. steep is good.. low slope not so good..

1. 
   Mongo_ | Oct 05, 2000 10:00pm | #2

   *Are these white? Red are usually more stable, more suitable at least for the roof. The one or two problem roofs I've seen were white instead of red.Did the inspectors mention if there is adequate ventilation under the shakes? Were they laid directly on the sheathing?

1. 
   Qtrmeg_ | Oct 06, 2000 02:16am | #3

   *Tim, you ought to get a roof pro over there to look at this. Home inspectors don't do it for me, but all four had a problem and this re-roof is a substantial issue.Maybe all that is going on is that the shingles were installed too tight, but like Mike said, "ain't there.. cain't say."

1. 
   Timothy_Saja | Oct 08, 2000 01:38am | #4

   *they are installed on lath not sheathing. I believe that they are red cedar. The attic space is open and well ventilated.

1. 
   Timothy_Saja | Oct 08, 2000 01:45am | #5

   *I don't take possession of the house until 10/18 so I cant really get up there and take good look at the shakes; however, The shakes look quite thick from the ground. I don see any broken or missing shakes. The only thin I can see is a 5-8 inch wide 1/2 - 3/4 inch thick shakes are cupped by about 1 inch over the span of 5-8 inches in width. Other than the cupping the roof looks great. If all that is wrong is that they are cupped then what is the long term problem? will they fail in some way over time?

2. 
   Bob_Walker | Oct 08, 2000 02:53am | #6

   *Tim,How much experience do those HI's have with shake roofs? I see very few in NW Ohio (mostly in crummy shape because they wren't installed correctly) and when I see potential problems with a material I don't see often, I'll refer my clients to a specialist in the area.As an HI, I'm a generalist, and I try to keep within my areas of knowledge.Are there other houses nearby of similar (or greater age) with similar roofs? How do they look?What's the pitch?Bob

3. 
   Jon_Thompson | Oct 08, 2000 03:00am | #7

   *Tim,www.cedarbureau.orgJon

4. 
   Creature | Oct 08, 2000 04:41pm | #8

   *Tim:Unlike a cedar shingle roof, on a cedar shake roof the protection is the interlayment not the shake. You should have a layer of 30# felt inbetween each course. Shakes can absorb a tremendous amount of water. If it doesnt leak and the shakes are in decent shape like Mike said, then I wouldnt replace it.Dave

5. 
   Nick_Pitz | Oct 08, 2000 06:26pm | #9

   *Timothy - If you are interested, e-mail me an I can give the name and number of a roofer who can give you an objective (relatively) opinion in the Philly area.

6. 
   Ross_Elliott | Oct 08, 2000 08:55pm | #10

   *Timothy, just curious which way the cup goes on these shakes. A lot of people don't know "smiles up!". That is, when you look at the end grain of the butt of the shingle, the annular rings bow up, like a smile. This is the only way the shingle should be laid. Many installers are either too inexperienced or too careless to get it right. A shake installed "smiles up!" will always bow down, tighter into the roof, rather than bow up where the wind and the rain can catch the edges. Good luck with your roof.....Ross Elliott

7. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 08, 2000 10:07pm | #11

   *Ross....Never saw siding shakes smiling....May be a thing with roofing but its not part of the directons on the packages that I remember reading....near the stream not knowing another person checking for smiles...ajTim....check the smile factor out on this roof for us...

8. 
   Ross_Elliott | Oct 08, 2000 10:22pm | #12

   *ain't that always the problem, inadequate instructions on the package. I've never seen studs packaged with instructions that say crown all your wall studs the same way, I guess that's why so few people do that too! Okay, not all shingles have "smiles", the rings sometimes are just vertical or horizontal lines, but if you know how wood behaves when it dries you'll understand the reason for "smiles up". I do it, because it makes for a better roof... go ahead, install them upside down, nobody will notice....

9. 
   Jeff_Clarke_ | Oct 09, 2000 01:25am | #13

   *My bet would be a relatively low grade of shake. If so, 12 years might be a good portion of its life. You can get a lot longer life using good shakes.Jeff

10. 
    JAmie_Renshaw | Oct 09, 2000 03:52am | #14

    *Is it nessacery to stain red cedar shingles when using them for siding ?

11. 
    Jeff_Clarke_ | Oct 09, 2000 09:02pm | #15

    *i Is it necessary to stain red cedar shingles when using them for siding ? No, but depending upon localized climatic conditions they will weather from silver-grey (ocean, full sun) to brownish-black (shady cool moist areas).

12. 
    Mike_Smith | Oct 10, 2000 02:28pm | #16

    *all siding needs a ""weathering surface""if you stain or paint the siding you get a RENEWABLE weathering surface..if you leave the siding unfinished .. the wood becomes the ""weathering surface"" the sun wind and rain.. erodess teh wood surface to the point it no longer protects and must be replaced....colonial homes with the original siding still in place after 300 years had weathering surface of paint....take a lesson from that book...

13. 
    Tommy_B. | Oct 11, 2000 02:13am | #17

    *Back to the "smiles up" theory.Although this sounds like a good idea, having just taken delivery on 15 square of shakes, I don't see how this is possible. I don't have the tag in front of me but I believethese are 24" X 1/2" butt medium resawn handsplits. They vary in thickness from 3/8 to 3/4". One side is resawn and the other handsplit. I assume the manufacturer is sending both halves out as product so that even if the orientation of the growth rings could be determined, this installation method would result in a 50% cull rate ( check me on the math ).Am I missing something, or is this smiles up theory out of left field?Anyone care to comment?Tom

14. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 11, 2000 02:16am | #18

    *Tommy...smiles up theory was off the cuff as half the posts are...Not checking shingles for smiles near the stream,aj

15. 
    Mike_Smith | Oct 11, 2000 02:52am | #19

    *for resawns it's bs..for other shingles .. when you pick it up it may exhibit tendencies... or there may be a blemish...if there is nothing obvious we lay 'em as they come..

16. 
    The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Oct 11, 2000 03:19am | #20

    *First someone is telling me they smile...Now, they're exhibitionists!!??@@All righty then...here's to flaunting my shakes...near the stream, aj

17. 
    Tommy_B. | Oct 12, 2000 01:16am | #21

    *AJ, Mike,Well now I know what you guys think. I curious to how Ross would respond. His post comes off as serious at least to me.I like debunking myths, and this one has been applied to deck boards etc. I am well aware of how wood behaves, which coincidentally is why I would never use shakes on my house. The shakes I am replacing on my cliets house are 18 years old and the first inch up from the butt is mush, and many are worn almost through. I was not able to tie an addition roof into the existing and am therefore replacing half of the main part of the house. I would be curious to hear some of your thoughts on this roof. Existing is same type shake over solid sheathing with thirty pound felt interlayment on a ten pitch with 7-1/2 inches to the weather. The site conditions are wooded lot with midday sun only reaching the roof. I have recommended shingle breather but the client is reluctant to pay the additional cost. I am also recommending the installation of zinc strips to control fungus and regular maintenance, but will install the shakes to match the existing installation conditions.Any thoughts?Tom

18. 
    Mike_Smith | Oct 12, 2000 01:27am | #22

    *tommy... you're gonna charge an arm and a leg for resawn shakes , right ?and the main reason they're failing prematurely is because they get wet and stay wet long enough for fungi to thrive..they can't dry from the back..$80 for a two sq. roll of shingle breather is cheap .. compared to what they are already spending.... i wouldn't do a wood roof without shingle breather or skipped-sheathing.. even if they insisted...for that matter i would probably try to talk them into a factory dipped preservative.. again.. it's a marginal increase in cost compared to the labor.. and the benefits in longevity are great..plywood sheathing is not a good base for wood shingles... they get wet all the way thru..they just do..the shingle breather at least gives them a chance....without it ... they're toastb but hey , whadda i no ?

19. 
    Amy_Sw. | Oct 12, 2000 01:30am | #23

    *Tom, I'm not a roof expert, but everything I've read about shake (having replaced my own 30 yr old shake roof with arch. shingle last year), states that if you put it over solid sheathing you are just wasting you money. They need to have ample air circulation in order to dry out, which is why you will see them on open sheathing. If you need an argument that your client understands: a good shake roof can and should last 30-50 years (some last many times that, but we don't have that kind of heartwood available any more). They are lucky to have gotten 18 if it isn't properly installed. My 30 year old roof was in very good shape when I replaced it except for over the garage (a secondary outbuilding) where lighter felt had been used. If not for fire hazard and a desire to match all of my roofs, I would have kept it another 5-10 years easily. It is worth the extra money to at least put in the breather you suggested if they are going to pay for shakes.

20. 
    Ross_Elliott | Oct 12, 2000 02:09am | #24

    *.... hmmmm, I don't know how many of you actually work with wood for a living, but as you might know, there are always several facets to a piece of wood. "Smiles up" is just one factor to consider when laying a shingle or a shake, the appearance, grain, defects, width, etc. all make up part of your wisdom... obviously if they're sawn on one side and split on the other then one of the many facets of that particular piece of wood is that you don't get a choice, right? I didn't say throw out 50% of your shingles, just pay attention to how you lay them, smiles up is better. And yes, I have seen many roofs where people laid them any which way, and I can tell you for a fact that there's a lot more shingles waving in the air because they bowed upwards than on any of the roofs I've ever done... IMHO.Shingle breather, now there's an excellent new technology! No decent shingle or shake roof should be without it. As far as laying shingles on solid sheathing, I would never do it under any circumstances...So the bottom line to the question is that a properly installed cedar roof should last at least 30 years (longer for shakes), if it's installed right. If it's not lasting, then it was probably installed by an amateur.

21. 
    Timothy_Saja | Oct 12, 2000 03:54am | #25

    *I would just like thank everyone for their input. Just some comments. The shakes are bowing down meaning they are smiling not frowning. Here in Chester county a large number of houses have cedar shake roofs, from town houses to mufti million new construction to 250 year old homes. I have been comparing this roof with other roofs and there is only a 2-3 sq section of the roof that is much more cupped than the rest of the roofs that I have seen. Can I replace just this section or do I need to replace the whole deck. Oddly enough this is the south facing deck that and gets the most sun of all the roof.

22. 
    Stanley_Niemiec | Oct 12, 2000 06:42am | #26

    *Okay everybody -- I am really confused and since I wrote an Extension Publication entitled "Care and maintence of shingle and shake roofs" I should be at least to understand this thread. Sorry I don't!Is cupping really cupping or are we talking about curling (not bonspieling but what I would consider as bowing in lumber)?I am totally lost regarding this smiles up, smiles down hoha. Yes a flat sawn board will cup but I sure don't know how anybody could split a shake from flat sawn grain orientated wood and get anything that would vaguely resemble a shake. Ross Elliot is trying to get this across. I think that splitting has be more radially oriented than tangential.I commend everyone for omitting the obvious and worthless solution/suggestion of applying an oil to replenish the natural oils lost from the wood. It really restores my faith in the knowledge and skill level of those contributing their thoughts. In this regard oils are worthless.So what is it cupping or curling??

23. 
    Mike_Smith | Oct 12, 2000 02:28pm | #27

    *stanley.... i backed off this one.. first i don't think it has even been established that we're really talking about ((shakes)).. since the average person i talk to usually calls shingles = shakes..the behavior sounds like shingles, and NOT EXTRA grade...cupping occurs a lot in white cedar shingles.. and in the lower grades of red cedar.. but cupping is from side to side.. (fishmouths)..this sounds like curling, except again.. he's describing them curling UNDER.. not up.. so.. i'm confused.. b as i usually am

24. 
    Ross_Elliott | Oct 13, 2000 02:32am | #28

    *ummm... ya, I was confused too, all the "shakes' around here are actually sawn, not split, like shingles... ignore everything I said about "smiles up", it dawned on me today as I was compacting dirt (a great job for letting your mind wander, about as boring a job as you can find on a site) that a split shake couldn't possibly smile... :-)

2. 
   Timothy_Saja | Oct 15, 2000 09:38pm | #29

   *
   I am in the process of buying a 12 year old house that has about 40 SQ of Cedar Shake Roof. Over the course of 4 home inspectors 2 have said that the roof needs to be stripped and replaced and 2 have said it only needs to be repaired. Here in the Philly area there has been about 8" of rain in the month of September, I have visited the house after each major rain. There has not been any leaks; however, those who advocate replacing the roof said that the roof is severely cupped and therefore it needs to be replaced. What is the problem with a cupped roof if is does not leak currently. Will the cupping cause it to leak? help!