Replies

1. 
   UncleDunc | Mar 10, 2004 11:38pm | #1

   >> ... at a price much lower than the local lumber yard.

   Even including the shipping?

   >> ... can I be assured of the quality ...

   How do you define assurance? If the shingles don't match your expectations, how would you resolve the disagreement? If there's a problem with the local lumber yard, you can go there and have screaming fights with them as often as it takes till they decide buying back your shingles is cheaper than providing free entertainment for the other customers.

2. 
   EricPaulson | Mar 11, 2004 01:35am | #2

   So, how much, where ya gettin them and where are they being shipped to?

   I am curious. I am doing a 12+ square job right now. A box runs about $100.00 plus tax and covers 1 square at 14". A box is pretty heavy, I can't imagine UPS or FEDEX.

   Eric

1. 
   Lemur | Mar 11, 2004 04:53am | #3

   The company is woodroof.com in British Columbia. The price is $82 a bundle for 5" exposure. Delivery to northern Michigan near Traverse City is $250 for 50 bundles, about a pallet and a half. Hope this helps.

1. 
   Piffin | Mar 11, 2004 06:42am | #5

   I bet it would still be the same price per bundle if you laid them at 8" exposure....

   Is that price American Dollars?

   RE quality, I would suspect that blue labels are blue labels anywhere on the continent. My concern would be with shipping damage 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Davo304 | Mar 11, 2004 08:14am | #6

   This is an interesting thread....I know next to nothing about cedar siding shingles. Most definately is a regional thing. Here in the Ohio Valley region, homes are either bricked, stuccoed, or sided with clapboards or vinyl. Years ago, mainly brick or clapboards. Today...higher end homes receive brick...economy class gets vinyl siding, and "middle class" homes gets combination of brick (normally in front and rear) and vinyl siding (on sides and/or upper stories).

   I can practically count on my fingers the number of homes that are shingle sided, and most are old homes with asbestos shingles; not the cedar variety.

   I personally like the look of shingles, but have never worked with the product at all. I've heard mention before about "blue label" and "red label" and red cedar vs. white cedar.  My questions are:

                1. Which type (red cedar vs white cedar) holds up better in the long run to a cold climate?

                 2. A SQUARE in roofing terminology is 100S.F.  Normally, in asphalt shingles, 3 bundles = a square.  How many cedar shingle bundles (for siding) does it take to accomodate 1 square (100SF)?

                3. What is a good average cost for such a shingle?

                 4. How many hours labor  ( on average) does it take for 2 experienced shingle installers to install 10 Square ( 1,000 SF) ?

   Anyone care to answer?  Thank you.

   Davo

   Edited 3/11/2004 12:16 am ET by Davo

1. 
   Piffin | Mar 13, 2004 01:52am | #16

   Fun thread here, isn't it Davo?

   I'll try to answer your side questions here.

   >1. Which type (red cedar vs white cedar) holds up better in the long run to a cold climate?<

   I'm not sure that the cold is a determining factor really. Wind borne debirs, water, mildew, and UV light rays all take their toll. I replaced shingles on a large place in 1991-2 that had been built in 1896. it was obvious from the nails and pattern under them that they were the original shingles. places that had been sheltered from the sun and weather wqere nearly full original thickness. That appearred to have een slightly more than the typical 3/8" butts nowdays for 16" white cedars.

   This is Maine, right on the coast, so we see some fairly extreme weather.

   Red cedar is reputed better at resisting rot because it contains more oils in the wood cells. One might suppose that this natural oil would also help them tolerate cold weather better but since the oil is inside the cell, I doubt that it makes the difference. The only damage I would anticipate from cold weather is when a shingle gets saturated from rain and then freezes hard, in a rooftop application rather than in siding. The freeze would create expansion at a time when the wood is brittle, leading to splits.

   The best way to prevent splits is to pay close attention to the drawing from the cedar institute showing how deep to drive a shingle nail and where to place those nails.

   (Whew, that's only one question so far....)

   > 2. A SQUARE in roofing terminology is 100S.F. Normally, in asphalt shingles, 3 bundles = a square. How many cedar shingle bundles (for siding) does it take to accomodate 1 square (100SF)?<

   Maybe you've noticed lately, that in asphalt shingles, sometimes there are four bundles to a square?

   Typical white cedars are 16" long, lay with a 5" exposure and take four bundles to cover 100 sq ft. Change the exposure and you cahnge the coverage. Sometimes sidewalls get stretched out to 7" exposure. There are also 18" and 24" shingles. Low slope roofs need no more than 4" exposure. My opinion is that style of house should influence the exposure allowed on the siding. 4" can look very neat and trim or it can look too crowded. 7" will not last as long and will be more likely to curl.

   >3. What is a good average cost for such a shingle?<

   I've been seeing the price for my White R&Rs range from 200 to 250 for years now. Most come out of Canada.

   > 4. How many hours labor ( on average) does it take for 2 experienced shingle installers to install 10 Square ( 1,000 SF) ?<

   On sidewalls, I can lay from one half to three squares a day, working alone, depending on cuts and weaving corners. A decent average is a square a day for one man. Add for setting up staging on higher work.

   so it is likely to run you $600 - 800/square installed for good shingles and good work. I've heard of it going for $400 a couple years ago, but check the quality when the price goes down there.

    

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Davo304 | Mar 15, 2004 06:48am | #24

   Piffin,

   Thanks so much for answering my earlier questions. That info helps a lot.

   If I may, could you also be so kind to inform me of the "grading" system used in wood shingles...ie.... R&Rs (what does that mean?)  What is considered a good grade shingle and what would be a poor grade and also an average grade. I'm sure price will reflect grades as well (ie.. lower the price...the poorer the grade of shingle?)

   Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions...this construction material, though in use for years and years...is really a new topic to me.

   Thank you.

   Davo

3. 
   Davo304 | Mar 15, 2004 07:40am | #25

   Hi Piffin.

   Hey, I did get some info about grades from reviewing the earlier posted link...so now I understand a little about Blue label, Red Label, Black Label, Undercoursing Label and now know that R&R stands for "Rebutted and rejointed."

   So,... I guess in a perfect world, if I was shingling my house's sidewalls, I would try to get #1R&R Blue labels. I also reviewed the link concerning "cedar breather" which I undestand is used primarily for roofing applications. Just wondering if this product is now being used as a sort of "rain screen" in sidewall applications.

   Any comments on the subject is greatly appreciated.

   Thanks again.

   Davo

4. 
   Piffin | Mar 16, 2004 03:31am | #26

   I was going to recommend reviewing above posts to find the links about grading. Glad to see your initiative at work.

   You definitely want R&R for sidewalls. It makes for much neater looking work at eye level which is most of the wall. Shingles that have not been resquared and rebutted tend to run off lines and to not fit at edges. The butts look like something cut with a chainsaw without a crisp neat straight line to them. They are also faster to lay and leave fewer splinters under your fingernails.

   The same company that makes cedarbreather sells a product called Rain slicker or "house slicker". My old memory is failing me right now, but there is another thread recently about it. I am using it for the first time on a preprimed Cedar clapboard siding application so I'm not too sure how well it works under shingle siding. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   10D | May 25, 2004 06:24am | #28

   Hey, piffin - could you read my latest post in the discussion on "paint/cedar follow up question" and tell me what you think of the estimate I got for replacement shingles on the top half of my house? 

   Thanks.

   10D 

6. 
   Piffin | May 28, 2004 01:40am | #29

   sure, but I'm a bit tired after a couple of 16 HR days and would like a link to it, I don't see it in the current column and don't have timew to search for it. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

7. 
   EricPaulson | May 28, 2004 02:34am | #30

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=43478.1

   Piffin, I owe you one............

   Tenacious, you owe me one..........

   Eric

8. 
   10D | May 28, 2004 05:35am | #31

   I've visited the Cedar Bureau website and downloaded installation directions, and other helpful information.  Today, the siding contractor called to set up an appointment to tell me about his bid, but still did not send me the proposal, as I had asked.  I am not going to go with replacing the whole sidewall - just spot replacement for missing shingles, strip to bare wood, and paint.  I am not convinced that perforated styrofoam is an appropriate material to attach shingles to, especially since the Cedar Bureau does not recommend it, and this other website (from this thread? Or another?) out of the West coast specifically recommends against it.  Out here in the Chicago area it is almost impossible to find anyone to do a job properly - it's all about fast and loose.  I have a friend who had to get a contractor from North Carolina to come up here and live in a mobile home on the property to re-shingle a condo development because no one local would do the job properly! 

   I still have not measured the "squares" on my house, but I think I understand the concept how to do it.

   Thanks for all of your help - you saved me thousands of potential lost $$.  Back soon

   10D

         

9. 
   Sphere | May 28, 2004 03:26pm | #32

   Be aware..a lot of manufactures and suppliers have a min. order for shingles..mine are coming from Vancouver abd it was a 16 sq. min. order.

   And, they were ordered 3.5 WEEKS ago, and I found out yesterday..THEY HAVE NOT SHIPPED YET...AAARRRGGG

   They wait till a truck is headin this way..they said. BASTIDS never said that when we ordered them.. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

10. 
    10D | May 28, 2004 05:29pm | #33

    Now that's something I had not thought of - delay in materials!! Do you recommend any particular vendors for a small order?  Did you order through a regular supplier you use or someone you found on the net?  Thanks for the heads up.

    10D   

11. 
    Sphere | May 28, 2004 05:40pm | #34

    woodroof.com  they had the best price..130.00 a sq. plus shipping (560.00 in this case) ..another place was with in pennies but they had a 20 sq. min. order.

    Be sure to check on the lead time..I figured even with a truck only driving 10hrs a day..10 days is reasonable from Vancouver to Kentucky..wrong. They wait till they have a big enuf load to send this way..of course they never said that until the tenth call to see where the damn shingles were.. 

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

2. 
   andybuildz | Mar 11, 2004 03:21pm | #8

   Piff

        Read the letter below before you read their response.

   Be well

            andy

   Dear Andy,

    

   Thank you very much for your email.

   We would be happy to help in any way we can!Please note that we have trucks coming out to Long Island on a semi-regular basis - and in the coming weeks and months, we hope to be

   bringing a full truck with mixed orders every two weeks. This will help keep the shipping costs from British Columbia down to a reasonable level.

   All the shingles come from here any ways - so our goal is to get top quality shingles to our customers at extremely competitive pricing.

    

   Please find two PDF file attached introducing our "Confederate Brand" cedar shingles. These are very high quality shingles for roofs, and

   great value for the walls compared to the baxed Re-Butted & Re-Jointed Sidewall Shingles. Please find specifications, pricing and photos in the attached PDFs.

   We can offer lower cost shingles but these really are in the top 5% of the industry for quality and coverage in a bundle.

   We have been sending quite a few squares to Long Island, CT, NJ and CA over the past few months. We can give you the name of a customer in East Hampton

   who has received and is working with 75 squares now.

    

   ROOFING

   Please follow link below to view our on-line roofing guide, based on the info from the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau.

   http://www.woodroof.com/roofingmanual

    

   SIDING

   Please follow the link below to download a 1.5MB PDF file containing a 15 page color siding manual.

   http://www.woodroof.com/shinglesidingmanual.pdf

    

   CEDAR BREATHER

   The best source for info is the manufacturer's web site.

   http://www.cedarbreather.com

    

   I agree that the price can be quite high. Our delivered price will depend on the quantity you need. Please note that

   full pallet orders - 18 or more rolls, covering 3600 sq ft - will be shipped to you freight free. We can offer at a price of US$79.00 per roll for full pallet quantities.

    

   FREIGHT COSTS - this will depend on the quantity of shingles you need, and how we are ulimately able to ship to you.

    

   We look forward to discussing with you further on Thursday.

   Please feel free to call us Toll Free any time - we will be in the office about 7am Pacific Time tomorrow.

   Otherwise, I will call you on the number you have provided below.

    

   Thank you and best regards,

   Lloyd Clefstad

   President

   http://www.woodroof.com

   Toll Free - 1-866-419-0635

    

    

   -----Original Message-----From: andy clifford [mailto:[email protected]]Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 10:41 PMTo: [email protected]Subject: Inquiry for http://www.woodroof.com

   I'm a builder on the north shore of Long Island. Bought an historic house (circa:1680) and added on about 2000 sq ft. Pretty much doubled the existing size with the permission of the historic society.

   Going to rip the existing roof off of the skip sheathing and re roof over the CDX ply I'm putting on tomorrow of the additions.

   Thought about using lathe over the new ply to let the new cedar breath vs Cedar Breather which I wonder about and the cost is pretty high.

   Anyway.......I also have the walls to do as well.

   Wondering the cost and quality I'd get from you vs my lumberyard with all things considered.

   If you might have a chance to call me I'd appreciate it. soon.

   Andy Clifford

               631 659-3007

   My life is my passion!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   Piffin | Mar 13, 2004 01:58am | #17

   Not sure if I'm supposed to be responding or if youare just sharing info. I would have less concern about shipping damage since it is on their own truck.

   I'm saving the site link because they have some good tables and background links to explain stuff I'm always explaining here.

   But their prices sound competitive without being especially great. I still lean to buying locally myself. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   andybuildz | Mar 13, 2004 02:43am | #19

   Piff

       After much research on the internet and my local suppliers I find it less expense through BC(canada). BUT...I'm not done doing the research.

   Its pretty interesting though.

   I found yet another company from BC via Google that was even more interesting than the one I posted.

   Personally, I'd much rather deal with my rep here on LI BUT I aint paying over a grand more if thats the case.

   I have a lot to deal with here and a grand is a lot for me.

   I also recognize having my local rep/supplier to be real nice and accomidating.

   I'm trying to weigh it all out.

   One thing I never knew was as my yard rep explained to me.that he was just informed of... because of my questions, was that "green" perfections was the way to go for more reasons than my swollen fingers feel like typing right now..BAsically they won't be as brittle and are still #1's.

   Sorry about the broken thoughts but my small skull bone is reeling from all the info all the different suppliers speak about.

   I need about 40 sq for my house (the roof) at a 5 1/2 " exposure using 18" perfections.

   If you use Roylas (24" exposure) you can use according to the manufacturers spec a 7 ish " exposure which isnt what I want anyway....Hmmmm

   When I did that gig for that historical museum up the way a buncha months ago they asked me to use Roylas at 5 1/2" with the deck sheathed with 1/2" cdx and the entire area water and ice shield and cedar breather.

   But then again they were a buncha yenta's if ya ask me,,,,,,and oh yeh.the pitch was a bit better than a 2:12 which brings me to another questions....Forget it.My fingers are killin' me today and lets not talk about my back.

   BE well bro

                     aMy life is my passion!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

3. 
   junkhound | Mar 16, 2004 05:42am | #27

   DID not read all the posts, but did anybody  question how much nail holding power the inernet has, as in "shingles over internet":??

2. 
   EricPaulson | Mar 11, 2004 03:26pm | #9

   .........a bundle covers one square at 5"??

   That's gotta be one huge bundle and weigh close to 200lbs.

   The R&R's I get come in a box, at 14" exposure they cover one square. The box has to weigh 80lbs(+-).

   Eric

1. 
   Lemur | Mar 11, 2004 03:48pm | #10

   One carton covers 36 square feet at 5" exposure and weighs 65 pounds.

1. 
   Sphere | Mar 11, 2004 04:36pm | #11

   Why would we shingle over the internet? I like it the way it is..kinda like a pergola..open, airy..good view of the stars. shingles would take all that away.

   View Image

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

2. 
   davidmeiland | Mar 11, 2004 05:44pm | #12

   Their site says one bundle = one square at 14" exposure... but they're 18" shingles, which you could hardly install a 14". 5-6" exposure is more typical. One factor is the sales tax--will you pay sales tax if you buy locally and will you save it if you pay for shipping from BC?

3. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 11, 2004 06:09pm | #13

   "will you pay sales tax if you buy locally and will you save it if you pay for shipping from BC?"

   Not exactly.

   You will still "owe" the sale tax or the use tax, but the state collecting it is an other thing.

   However, if you have a business it is more likely that the state will find you.

4. 
   davidmeiland | Mar 11, 2004 11:25pm | #14

   If you're a consumer and they send you something from out of state with no sales tax collected, that's on them. I'm assuming the OP is in this category. Increasingly businesses from out of state are collecting the local tax where they ship to and sending it to that state.

   If you're a business and you buy something from wherever and pay no sales tax, that's fine as long as you resell it and collect tax on that sale. If you divert something for your own private use you're supposed to declare it on your resale tax return and pay the tax.

5. 
   Piffin | Mar 13, 2004 02:10am | #18

   And the fun keeps going on and on...

   Sales axe

   Most states charge that based on point of sale. Yes they build in that use tax and try to collect it too to cover other kinds of sales but that is another - if you get caught thing.

   So here is how it works for me, If I call to New Hampshire for a load of hardwood to be delivered here in Maine, the point of sale is in Maine, and they are supposed to collect sales tax at that time.

   If I drive to NH for the same purchase, the point of sale is in NH where there is no sales tax, so they don't add it on. I pay the use tax later.

    

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

6. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 13, 2004 04:15am | #20

   "If I call to New Hampshire for a load of hardwood to be delivered here in Maine, the point of sale is in Maine, and they are supposed to collect sales tax at that time. "

   Not exactly. If the company does not have any "connections" in Maine (it is called nexis) then they don't have to collect it. This might be a little tricky if they used their own trucks. But if it was shipped by a common carrier they would not have to collect it. For example ordering a tool from Amazon.

   But you are still responsible for seeing that it is paid.

   A lot of states are adding lines to the income tax forms "asking" people to pay it on any out of state purchases.

7. 
   Piffin | Mar 13, 2004 05:56am | #21

   On their trucks they have to collect the tax.

   Common carrier - it depends on the money exchange. If a COD order, tax should be added because the trucker is acting as their agent. If I prepay by Credit card or on my account with them, the point of sale is still in NH. The sale has already taken place before the common carrier is loaded.

   Out state income tax has a box where you either state exactly how much you purchased out of state and then figure tax on it, or they automatically assess you a use tax that is based on a cetain percentage of you income.

   or you can enter zero in the box to avoid any such tax which makes you guilty of making false statements if they can show that you did indeed make a mail order or internet purchase from elsewhere. Haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted. It is really a small piddly amount they add. Mine is 30-40 bucks I guess. Not worth losing any sleep over. It's just another extortion scheme... 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   EricPaulson | Mar 12, 2004 12:17am | #15

   You are paying $246.00 per sq. @ 5" plus delivery.

   I paid $245.00 per sq. @ 5" plus tax, free delivery and I bought them at my LOCAL supplier.

   Ya ain't gettin no great deal, plus your cutting out the local guy who you will eventuall need for something else.

   Maybe you're not getting "contractor" prices on these. It would be worth your while to have a talk with the owner or manager of where ever you can get them local, and mention quantity of course.

   One or two busted up bundles and your SOL. My R&R's come in nice boxes neatly cross stacked. Never seen R&R's bundled. Perfections yes, not R&R's though.

   Eric

   Edited 3/11/2004 4:18 pm ET by firebird

3. 
   Lateapex911 | Mar 11, 2004 06:30am | #4

   Michigan Prestain can sell you the same product dipped, if you like that idea.... same idea, ship a few pallets save some middle man charges.

   I like the idea of not having to finish them all....

   Jake Gulick

   [email protected]

   CarriageHouse Design

   Black Rock, CT

1. 
   Lemur | Mar 11, 2004 03:10pm | #7

   Actually I have given serious thought to Michigan Prestain. Have you dealt with them and have you been satisified?

1. 
   Lateapex911 | Mar 13, 2004 06:05am | #22

   I did buy a bunch, and they await me in the garage. The company was fine to deal with, and actually delivered before their promise date. As soon as my new nail gun arrives, I will begin THAT project. (thanks to those who contributed suggestions and advice when I asked for help with that purchase in another thread)

   Pricng was less then i would have spent for the same finished product, and the quality looks OK so far. Perhaps a little furry, but we'll see once they're on the wall. Sometimes staring at something from a distance of a foot is a little different than staring at from a house wide view!

   I will say that I like the dipping idea for longevity, and they are very aggresive in their claims of weathering control, due to their use of Sherwin Williams finishes. S/W seems to have a pretty good rep in the outside finish arena.

   We'll see, and i'll report back in a week or so.Jake Gulick

   [email protected]

   CarriageHouse Design

   Black Rock, CT

4. 
   sutton | Mar 13, 2004 06:06pm | #23

   One good thing about buying locally is you can check out the quality (or lack of )of the shingles @ your suppliers yard.

   When it comes to a bundle sporting a 'Blue Label'... First, it should be a genuine Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau Blue Label. They set the grading standards. I just received a notice from them regarding counterfeit 'Blue Labels' being used by an american mill to pass their product off as being certified CSSB. 

   Quality really differs from mill to mill and from bundle to bundle and a 'Blue Label' is just a starting point - you have to check the shingles yourself.   I've had problems when buying sight unseen. The broker swears up and down that his shingles are "The Best!" 9 times out of 10 they're not.  What's your recourse if you are unhappy with them? Some companies want your money before shipping.

   Regarding Western Red Cedar vs Eastern White...  It's been my experience that Red holds up better than White.  The edge-grain in Red weathers better, stays flatter and splits less over the years than the flat or face grain in White.