We are remodeling our home built in l978 – a cement slab. We pulled out all of the linoleum, ceramic tile (all adhered to cement VERY well), and part of the carpeting – planning on replacing it with new ceramic tile. They started this on Feb. l2 and we are still having problems and need HELP, and ideas. On the first laying of the tiles over 50% of them were hollow. They ended up having to pull the whole floor. Since then they have acid washed the floor at least 2 times and tried laying a sample strip (22 tiles). On the sample strip they used Hydroment PM thin set and they said? they added an adhesive additive. They checked it in 72+ hours and felt it was still not adhereing to the cement good enough. When they pulled 2 of the tiles and a lot of the thin set came off of the cement very smooth, however, the tiles do not sound hollow at this time. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make ceramic tiles stick to apparently “difficult cement”. I am truly running out of patience at this point.
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"Hollow" sounding or " drummy" tiles are the result of either not enough adhesive/ tile laid when adhesive has " skinned off"/ poor adheshion to substrate.
In your case it sounding like the latter.
I would
1. Check on the competence of the tile layers
2. Check on the adhesive suitability
3. Scabble the concrete slab with a needle gun/machine to ensure a good bond.
( there are companys that specialize in this and there are machines that have a dust extraction system attached that ensure virtually nil dust in your home)
Thanks for the suggestion of the scrabbling. We had heard that idea before, but thought it would be incredibly dusty and dirty - and goodness knows we have had a lot of that ! I will offer this suggestion to the tile installers. They are supposed to be professionals, and are licensed, however, at this point one has got to wonder! They say they have never had anything like this happen before. I do appreciate any suggestions.
I agree. Switch to a pro. A real pro that does the same thing every day and has been at the same address 15 yrs kinda thing. I know a tile man that has been doing it 25 yrs full time. One of those would be great for you right now. Sounds like the mud was too dry to me, and that is tested with one tile. So if your tile layer doesnt know that ....... Epoxy thinset will solve an adhesion problem. But Im not there and thats good !!!!!!!! Call a tile or thinset rep .
Tim Mooney
The people laying the tile were contracted through the carpet and tile store, so I presummed they were professionals. I have called both tile companies and thinset companies. Some of the suggestions we have received are: 1) roll on layer of quikcrete cement bonding agent, let it dry and they install tile using Versabond thinset 2) Use 2 gal. of Curelastic instead of water in the thinset mix and install tiles as usual 3) Use Ultracontact thinset. Does anyone have any other suggestions or a response to which of those might work best.
The installers are saying I may have to go to some kind of a floating floor, but I can't believe there isn't some way to make the tile work, especially since everything adhered so well when the house was originally done!!!
Again, any helpful hints would be appreciated. It seems to me the tile layers or the Store should be working on this problem, but since they don't seem to be and it has been ALMOST 5 months, I will pass on to them anything I find out.
Going to the reps was the right thing to do. I would however try to speed up the stores actions, its their baby .
I just have to ask, how much of the money has already changed hands? Don't know very much about tile problems, but always have believed that they only get two try's before I start looking elsewhere for some new thinking. This is a lot easier if you have still got the money! Is it possible there is a moisture problem under the slab, is the thinset sticking real well to the tiles and not the slab, or just not sticking to anything? Good luck, you are sure not having any so far.
Dan
So far no money has exchanged hands. They did the moisture test and that came back okay. The thinset sticks to the tiles, but not very well to the floor. Where the thinset comes up easy it is shiny and slick on the part that was on the concrete. Last night I tried putting little puddles of water on several trial areas throughout the house. There were a couple of places where it would soak in but mostly it just sat on the top of the concrete. The people from the store are being really good (but slow!) about this. They don't want to install another floor and have the same thing happen again! and trust me, neither do I. They have talked to some thinset reps that said we may have to sandblast or grind the floor (oh my goodness, what a mess that would be). Any other thoughts would certainly be appreciated!
>but mostly it just sat on the top of the concrete
Could someone have put a silicone sealer on the concrete?
or they cleaned off the tile with Thinset-B-Gone...if the old tiles were bonded so well, seems like it would have created some "tooth" when they were removed...after 5 months, no matter how good the supplier/installers intentions and attitudes, I would move on...sticking tile to concrete should not be a problem...
Sounds like there's some chemical that is interfering with the bond of the thinset. This chemical could have been used to remove the old thinset or adhesive, or it could be a curing compound that was applied to the slab when it was poured. However, if you have not had problems with the old tile I would suspect the first scenario. I think you will have to mechanically scarify the slab in order to get this installation to work.
Dont assume they are professionals just because they where contracted out by the flooring store. I had a floating floor installed by a flooring store's so called contractor and the installation was a mess. Glue left on the floor, and wide gaps at some of the joints (used his foot to kick the joints together). But the worse part was that they didnt leave a gap between the floor and the wall. Contractor told me that everybody liked it tight up against the wall. I told contractor that manufacturer would probably void warranty since it wasnt installed right, took an email and a phone call from the manufacture to convince the the contractor and store owner of this. They used a cir saw to cut the floor away from the wall, what a mess.
In the long run I could have done a better job myself and would have saved alot of money
Ceramic Tiles do not adhere very well to old carpet cement etc. If this was my project, I would probably install a membrane over the slab. Most slabs need it anyway because they crack, so the adhesion issue is a bonus.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
What kind of a membrane are you talking about? Any special recommendations?
This'll getcha started... http://floorstransformed.com/membrane.html
Most suppliers have their own membranes. I believe in single sourcing, so pick a product line and stay with it. I happen to like Custom Building Products, but a lot others like Laticrete.
Laticrete Blue 92 would be a good starting point. However, the bonding problems you have experienced may also be present with this membrane, e.g., the membrane might not stick either. I would want to have a clear understanding of the glue and remnants left on the floor, your efforts to remove the stuff, and then speak with a Laticret tech before committing to this membrane. It may not be right for you.
If there is a lot of junk left on the slab, you may have scarify the slab, and/or float a new mortar bed (which doesn't have to be bonded to the slab) and/or pour a Self Leveling Compound, like Custom Building Products Level Quick, over the slab. If you use an SLC I strongly recommend the use of a primer for it, and again, would want to speak with the techs at the manufacturer as to your particular condition and whether their SLC could bond to the slab.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
I ran into this same problem a few years ago on a basement floor. I was called to "replace a few tiles" that had come loose after the "fly by night" installer disappeared. I was able to remove tiles with a wide cold chisel and a single tap of the hammer. I explained to the customer that the slab was "steel troweled" for a shiny finish and that they should have scarred the surface before laying the tile.
The clients said they didn't really care for the pinkish grey tiles anyway so I (my helpers) pulled up the 600 sq. feet of tile in one day and scarred the surface the next day with 2 rotary hammers. We used an elastic type thinset, I don't recall the brand, that the tile supplier provided. No membrane - learned about that later.
I remodeled their bathroom last year and the basement tile shows no signs of any problems so far. I'd say, scar the slab via needle gun, grinder, rotary hammer, whatever works, and you should have no problem after that.
Ted W.
I was wrong once before, and it could happen again - But not likely.
Edited 7/1/2002 11:57:16 PM ET by WEBTROOPER