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Ceramic tile loosening after 9 years

BobHorne32547 | Posted in General Discussion on January 31, 2007 04:15am

I’ve run into an odd problem. I am in Northwest Florida, with a house built slab-on-grade. Within the last year, some of my ceramic tile has started sounding loose, with a gritty sound when I step on it.

There seems to be a pattern. There is a line down the hall, crossed by another line of loose tile crossing the first and running down the family room. I think I have read that when laying tile it is common to establish base lines to work out from, and these rows of tile may be them.

I contacted the flooring place that put it in, and he says he is willing to help me financially with replacing it, but otherwise doesn’t want to touch it. He thinks it is caused by bad materials that were common when the tile was installed, around Oct/Nov 1997. He says the materials used now cost five times as much.

Why would tile last years and then start to come up? There is no detectable moisture present, and no remodeling has been done near the affected areas within the last five years.

Today I noticed a new oddity. Just inside the door that leads from the house to the garage, a section of tiles has bowed up – about four, at a minimum. If I step on them, they go flat and then bow back up. Again , we are talking CERAMIC tiles.

Any ideas would be appreciated. I do anticipate replacing the tiles, but am hesitant to do so without having some idea of what is causing the problem. Also, the family room opens out onto a pool, so I am probably going to have to replace tile with tile – if I can convince myself it will stay down.

Bob Horne

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Replies

  1. calvin | Jan 31, 2007 04:45am | #1

    bob, have you pulled up one or two to see if there's a saw cut or other control joint in the concrete at these locations.  Or perhaps a crack in the slab?

    A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

    Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    http://www.quittintime.com/

     

    1. BobHorne32547 | Jan 31, 2007 04:48am | #2

      I haven't pulled any yet. I can see the edge of the slab from the garage at the place where the tiles have bowed up just inside the door, and the slab is not cracked. (There is a stepdown from the house into the garage, and the edge of the house slab is visible under the door jamb.)Bob Horne

  2. WayneL5 | Jan 31, 2007 05:02am | #3

    The symptoms you describe suggest the tile has not bonded to the concrete properly.  It may be aggravated in a line because there is a control joint underneath.

    There are a couple of possible causes that I know of, and others on this forum may know of more.  One is that there used to be other tile there before, such as vinyl tile, and the old adhesive was not removed.  The new tile adhesive, being cement based, won't stick to a vinyl adhesive.  Or it could be that a curing agent was applied to the wet concrete.  Some curing agents are waxy or water repellant, and thinset mortar won't stick to them well.

    You can likely reuse the same tiles.  You don't have to take up the whole floor, just the loose ones.  It may happen in the future in other areas, but I've seen where repairs last a good many years.

    1. brownbagg | Jan 31, 2007 06:23am | #4

      hell just blame it on hurricane damage, so next time you at Home depot you could honest say, Global warming made your tiles pop..

    2. BobHorne32547 | Jan 31, 2007 06:43am | #6

      Thanks for your comment. I think I'm going to learn more from this forum than anywhere else.You are correct in assuming there were some other type of tile there prior to this installation. When I bought the house in 1997 it was a fixer-upper. It still had all the original 1969 stuff - avocado green carpet, green sink, green cooktop, formica counters, and some sort of aprrox. 12x12 vinyl or something tiles. The flooring company took the old floors up, and I had the house painted and carpeted and tiled before I moved in. It's very possible that the crew didn't adequately clean the floor before tiling.Another suggestion was made about moisture, but I don't think so. I have had two different guys here that had different types of moisture meters,and no indication of moisture.So far, this is the most interesting idea yet. Thanks again.Bob Horne

      1. WayneL5 | Feb 01, 2007 03:18am | #15

        Bingo.  I'll bet when you take up the ceramic tile there'll be residue of vinyl tile adhesive underneath.

        1. BobHorne32547 | Feb 01, 2007 06:07am | #16

          I suspect the same thing. The part that was "tented" is now "pup-tented" as it has broken loose at the end and there are now four tiles, two on each side, with a joined edge up in the air about a half inch to an inch. I'm going to try to cut the grout with a Dremel. That should let me flatten them, and at the same time move them enough to see the floor underneath. From what I can see looking under the "pup-tent" there are no visible cracks or joints.Strange stuff. Well, I know I'll be replacing them, as the edges of two of the tiles spalled badly where the pup tent broke loose. I only have one tile, and they are no longer available in 12x12, only 14x14. By the time I get the rest of them up, there'll be more damage. Oh, well.I'm still hoping to find out what's causing it. I need to put down a new floor if I can't re-fasten this one, and I just can't see doing that until I know what's causing the problem.Bob Horne

          1. alanj | Feb 02, 2007 06:09am | #17

            See any sign of effloresence in any other concrete surfaces?This is usually seen as a white powdery substance, that is usually a salt or alkaly brought to the surface by a rising water table.It can cause spalling of a concrete surface.I also found it in a front step that I'm sure the original builder used beach gravel to construct it with. Popped the parging right off.Luck

          2. BobHorne32547 | Feb 02, 2007 06:24am | #18

            No sign of efflorescence yet - I'm going to wait until Saturday morning to cut the joint between the raised tiles. Once I take them out, I'll be able to see the surface clearly as well as the back of the removed tiles.I have noticed that since the "tented" tiles lifted, the others that were making grating noises when walked on are now silent when walked on, and also seem more solid.Strange.Bob Horne

          3. Billy | Feb 02, 2007 07:17am | #19

            It is difficult to think of a cause for tented tiles that is not related to the installation.  Like another poster said, it is usually the result of a failure to to put an expansion gap or joint around the perimeter, or an expansion joint in a long run of tile.  It is not caused by a bad batch of thinset, which would cause the tiles to break loose without tenting.

            Billy

          4. BobHorne32547 | Feb 03, 2007 09:30pm | #20

            I took up the tented tiles this morning, cut the grout with a grout saw.It looks as though they never removed the mastic from the previous vinyl (or whatever) tile - the whole surface under the removed tiles shows the mastic swirled perfectly, not removed.I will post pictures once I figure out how.Bob Horne

          5. BobHorne32547 | Feb 03, 2007 10:32pm | #21

            I think I have figured out how to include photos. We'll see.Bob Horne

          6. BryanKlakamp | Feb 04, 2007 12:10am | #22

            Well, that explains part of the reason they popped. Still, if there isn't any expansion joints around the edges, it will do that even if it is bonded well to the substrate.

            You will probably have more trouble with your floor later on, even after you reset those tiles.

            It's like one roof I have done repair on twice so far. The original roofer put the laminated shingles on wrong, nailing above the nailing line, not nailing through both layers of shingle. I told the homeowner that they will continue to have shingles blow off in the future.

            Lack of quality installation = years of problems.

            Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."

            Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio

          7. BobHorne32547 | Feb 04, 2007 05:22pm | #23

            Well, I pulled the quarter-round on the nearest wall, and there doesn't seem to be any butting problem. The tile ends in a ragged line not touching the baseboard, which makes sense since they didn't remove the baseboard. The quarter-round covers the ragged edge, and that's why they installed it.Overall, the sense of what I'm getting from this forum is that I need to take the tile up, clean the mastic up, and re-tile.How important is removing all traces of the mastic? And what's the best way to do it?Bob Horne

          8. User avater
            BarryE | Feb 04, 2007 05:26pm | #24

            Looking at the pics, it looks like the problem could be cutback adhesive.Do a google search on "cutback adhesive"

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          9. BryanKlakamp | Feb 04, 2007 11:46pm | #25

            There may be a bonding agent available to use for this. I'm sure someone else out there has encountered this before.

            I did one for a contractor who was remodeling a bathroom where tiles had been glued down, and I asked him to use a grinder to remove the glue as well as giving the concrete a rough texture to allow the thinset to bond or grab hold of the concrete better.

            Again I would suggest that you check over at johnbridge.com. They will no doubt be able to give you the right answer.

            Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."

            Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio

          10. User avater
            BarryE | Feb 05, 2007 12:45am | #26

            Before using a grinder, I would make sure if it's cutback or something else. Earlier cutback contained asbestos.Best to know before it starts flying

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

          11. Billy | Feb 05, 2007 03:28am | #27

            The tiles wouldn't tent unless there was some type of lateral pressure.  Are you sure there is a gap all the way around the room?  If it's not for lack of an expansion joint around the peimeter, perhaps there should have been one in the middle of the room or at the proper interval for a long stretch of tiles.

            Also, there is very poor coverage of the thinset on the tiles, certainly not enough for floor tiles.  That's the first thing that a friend of mine said over at http://www.johnbridge.com when he saw your photos.

            Billy

            Edited 2/4/2007 10:12 pm ET by Billy

          12. BobHorne32547 | Feb 06, 2007 02:10am | #28

            Well, I've been over on johnbridge.com and learned a lot. Thank you, whoever suggested that site. Very helpful and knowledgeable.What I get out of this is that I am screwed. What you see in the pictures is what I saw when I popped the tiles. I removed some grout and thinset by hand and put them aside and later swept it up with a dustpan and brush. It didn't amount to more than a handful.The consensus of advice here and at johnbridge.com is that the mastic is cutback adhesive, and that the way to remove it is with a four-inch scraper. It won't all come off, but to the point where it is gray rather than black. Quality thinset made to go over that stuff will be the other half of the answer. The overall view was that the floor is going to come up over time - I can fight it and patch it but it wasn't done right to begin with. One guy commented that I was lucky to get nine years out of it. Thanks for your help and advice. I appreciate it. At least now I have an idea of where I stand and what I can do.Bob Horne

  3. DanH | Jan 31, 2007 06:25am | #5

    I'm guessing the concrete's cracked under there.

    So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
  4. BryanKlakamp | Jan 31, 2007 07:01am | #7

    Where the tiles are bowing up can be called "tenting". This is where the substrate and the tile expand and contract at different rates. This will also happen when there are no expansion joints built into the tile installation. If the tile are laid tight between two walls, with thin set or grout around the edges and no where for the tile to expand to, they will "tent", that is, they will pop off of the floor.

    I remember reading one time where a homeowner went to remove one of his loose tiles that had tented, and his tile blew off the floor as soon as he relieved the tension by removing one tile.

    We have a fast food restaurant here in town that has to redo sections of their tile floor from time to time because the tile has been installed with base tile on the walls and the joint between them and the floor tile has been grouted solid. As you walk across the floor, you can feel and hear the loose tile. Yet, they keep doing it again and again.

    You might also check over at http://www.johnbridge.com. It is a very good forum for tile problems.

    Bryan

    "Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."

    Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio



    Edited 1/30/2007 11:29 pm ET by BryanKlakamp

  5. Catskinner | Jan 31, 2007 07:14am | #8

    Are they set in mastic or thinset?

    1. BobHorne32547 | Jan 31, 2007 04:30pm | #10

      They were set in thinset. It amazes me that a section of ceramic can bow like that and not pop - I stepped on the "bowed-up" section this morning, and it went flat - and then immediately popped back up into it's bow.Bob Horne

  6. Billy | Jan 31, 2007 07:14am | #9

    Bryan nailed it -- it is called tenting.  The guys at http://www.johnbridge.com will help you out.  You'll need to have it re-tiled correctly.

    Billy

    1. BobHorne32547 | Jan 31, 2007 04:36pm | #11

      Okay, thanks to all of you. I am going to try Johnbridge.com and see what I find there.Bob Horne

      1. User avater
        Jeff_Clarke | Jan 31, 2007 05:00pm | #12

        "bad materials that were common when the tile was installed, around Oct/Nov 1997"Exactly right - seen that several times, and some of the more reputable guys are redoing work at little or no charge.

         

        Jeff

        1. davidmeiland | Jan 31, 2007 07:36pm | #13

          Specifically what was bad? Was the market flooded with fake thinset? <g>

          1. User avater
            Jeff_Clarke | Jan 31, 2007 07:42pm | #14

            I don't know what it was about the grout that was bad, sorry - just that the time frame corresponds to some *problem* jobs about the same time and I was told the same thing.

            Jeff

             

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