Replies

1. 
   jesse | Jul 03, 2007 07:30am | #1

   Do you really think sealing the grout will stop the problem? I would say you have a fundamental problem with your shower building.

   You need to tear it out and start over. Check out the numerous threads on Kerdi here and at johnbridge.com

2. 
   Mongo | Jul 03, 2007 07:47am | #2

   Sealing really has nothing to do with the "waterproofing" of a shower.

   Before you laid down the membrane on the floor, did you install a drypack preslope and then put the membrane down on top of that, or is the membrane on the flat subfloor?

   There are a couple of things that made your floor construction less than clear. If the membrane is not sloped, it's done incorrectly.

   On the walls, describe the construction from the framing to the tile.

   Although there are variations, the walls should be something like:
   -framing
   -drainage plane, either 6-mil poly or lapped #15 tar paper
   -cement board
   -thinset
   -tile and grout

   If you tiled over regular drywall, that's a no no, and it's always been a no no.

   If you tiled over greenboard, it's always been iffy, and greenboard as a tile backer in wet areas was banned by code over a year ago.

   If you tiled over cement board, that's good, but you still need a barrier between the cement board and the framing.

   Your shower sounds like it is toast.

   Forget about drying it out and sealing it, it's failed construction.

   You need to gut the thing to the framing, both the walls and pan, and start over.

   For grins, the floor should be something like this, from bottom to top:

   -subfloor
   -tar paper
   -diamond mesh
   -deck mud preslope
   -CPE or CPVC membrane
   -more deck mud
   -thinset
   -tile and grout

   If you want to see a "better way" to waterproof a tiled shower, look into Kerdi. See this thread for a primer:

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=86714.1

   Mongo

1. 
   gesang | Jul 03, 2007 08:00am | #3

   Mongo

   thanks for the response.

   I did build it right. 2x10 blocks between the studs,   sloped dry mud pack over a concrete slab, membrane up the wall as high as the 2x10 blocks and then the membrane  into the drain assembly, more sloped mud pack, thinset mortar, tile and grout. That is why I don't understand how it has leaked so badly.  I can't remember whether I used drywall, greenboard or what behind the tile. 

   I did find a few places where  the grout was missing high up on the wall. Could be the avenue for the water to get behind the tile.

   thanks

   Elliot

1. 
   JeffBuck | Jul 03, 2007 10:32am | #6

   "I did build it right."

   No U didn't ... half your bath is rotting away.

    

    

   "I can't remember whether I used drywall, greenboard or what behind the tile.  "

   How ... is that possible?

   Your own freaking house and U "can't remember"?

    

    

   anyways ... maybe U don't want to remember ... that neither drywall or greenboard should be used in a wet location ... like inside the freaking shower.

   Not remembering whihc brand of CBU U used ... sure ... I'll understand that one.

    

   but sounds like no CBU ... and ... in any case ... no vapor barier.

   U know ... the plastic or felt paper U forgot to line the studs with BEFORE U screwed up and build a freaking shower outta drywall ....

    

    

   probably mastic for the tiles too ...

    

   Good thing yer a GC.

   Jeff    Buck Construction

    Artistry In Carpentry

        Pittsburgh Pa

1. 
   andybuildz | Jul 04, 2007 05:33pm | #13

   I love reading your posts...LOLOLOL

    

   "Even if embryonic stem cells are absolutely good for nothing at all how can anyone in good conscience be against using them for research given that they are going to be destroyed anyway"?  J.Hayes

   http://www.john-lennon.com/imagine-neilyoung.ra

   http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM                                 

    

2. 
   Frankd479 | Jul 04, 2007 12:32am | #10

    I can't remember whether I used drywall, greenboard or what behind the tile. 

   I remember years ago, it was said that greenboard was suitable for wet locations. Seen it on many of the home improvement tv programs.

   I have never used greenboard in wet locations and here's why:

   Most homeowners let the caulking in the bathtub to tile deteriorate. Most often happens because some idiot uses latex caulk instead of silicone . Latex breaks down, shrinks and just doesn't bond like silicone. Plus if the old caulking isn't removed and all grease,oils removed the new caulking won't stick.

   So what happens if you used greenboard in this case?

   Quite simple, The greenboard wicks the water up from its exposed bottom edge because there is NO TAR ON THE EDGES TO PREVENT THE WATER FROM BEING ABSORBED INTO THE GREENBOARD.

   I can usually diagnose if someone used greenboard by seeing that oooky black stufff ooozing out the base of the shower wall.

   Now, if you live in an ideal world where every homeowner maintains and monitors their siliconized caulked bathtubs than greenboard would be PERRRRRRRFECT!!!!!!

   Cement board don't rot

   Frank 

2. 
   gesang | Jul 03, 2007 08:23am | #4

   Mongo

   I read a lot of your thread. Wow you have really served us all a blessing sharing what you know and do. I will have to look into the Kerdi and check with my supplier.  But one question.  My supplier, Cronin Company promotes a TEK product called Triple Flex which would create a complete waterproof membrane like the Kerdi but it is rolled on. I used it once to seal a leaking underground  concrete HVAC duct chase. Just rolled it on the floor and wall and it stopped the entire leak.  They say I can use it to build a shower instead of the membrane.  Please share your thoughts about this.

   thanks

   Elliot

1. 
   davidmeiland | Jul 03, 2007 08:50am | #5

   You may have done the pan correctly, but if you tile over ANY wall material without a proper moisture barrier behind, the water will get into the wall that way and eventually migrate down into the blocking and plates below. If your walls are greenboard or drywall with nothing behind, the framing is completely unprotected.

   If you are not using Kerdi or another surface waterproofing, you probably want to use cement board for the walls with 6 mil poly or felt behind (over the studs) that is lapped down well over the membrane on the blocking.

   Mongo said it, your install needs to come out completely. Read Michael Byrne's book and read up over at johnbridge.com, where there are at least a million shower threads.

2. 
   Sasquatch | Jul 03, 2007 05:01pm | #8

   This is a product from the Noble Co. My goal is always a shower that can be used continually without degradation.

   Start with a second layer of subfloor and then add blocking to lower walls. I like to Place a 1/2" Durock backerboard on the floor, without fasteners so the floor can move if it has to without moving the pan.  If the shower is larger than 3X5, I would use other methods, which I will not get into here.

   Then 30# paper on exterior & wet walls, Thinset, preslope, paper, membrane, backer on walls, 3" mud pan, and then the membrane on the walls, which you see in the pic.

   Notice the light blue line at the bottom. I like this method because the sealant at the bottom of the backerboard prevents wicking from the pan to the backerboard and on to the frame. The sealant joins the membrane on the wall to the membrane on the floor, making an impervious seal.

   Sealant and membranes are all from Noble.

   Don't forget the leak test.

   Note that an alternate method is to use the 30# felt paper around the entire shower frame, being sure to hang it over into the basin.  Rock goes on the felt.  What I don't like about this method is that there are numerous penetrations in the felt.  It is probably not a problem with the nails sealing the paper, but the screws into the backer will not seal as well.  When the backer gets wet, each screw hole will be a potential vapor leak, maybe even more.

   I'm sure someone Like Tom Meehan could give much better advice; however, since he doesn't seem to be weighing in on these shower discussions, I hope my opinion is helpful.  Disclaimer:  Like anyone posting here, my theories could be wrong.

3. 
   Mongo | Jul 05, 2007 04:16am | #15

   I've never used Triple Flex, but according tot eh manufacturer it can be used as a trowel on membrane.Personally, I prefer a sheet membrane like Kerdi over a trowel or roll on membrane. I just feel more confident that I'm getting a solid installation.No worries about popped air bubbles or missed spots in inside corners.Mongo

3. 
   pinko | Jul 03, 2007 03:47pm | #7

   Complete tear-out.

   And if you are indeed a "general contractor and have built a few of these for clients", I DAREsay you better figure out what you did wrong so you don't continue screwing up your customers' showers.

   I guarantee, if you used "drywall" as a tile backer, every one of the showers you've done IS failing in the exact same manner as yours...might be time to go and inspect some of these..probably some warrantee work is in order.

4. 
   pacificsbest | Jul 03, 2007 05:50pm | #9

   Perhaps leaking through openings of the plumbing fixtures?

   Well, Guess I have to learn how to do THAT, now!
5. 
   Jeff_Clarke | Jul 04, 2007 08:02am | #11

   What did you do in the corners?  (Should be 100% silicone).

   Jeff

6. 
   EricPaulson | Jul 04, 2007 02:57pm | #12

   And All,

   Shame on you all for bad detective work. You all need to pay close attention to what is being written. No milkbones for any of you!!

   His shower went south due to poor detailing at the curb. What does that tell you. Bad membrane wrap over curb that was done with sheetrock. It's screaming at me!

   "Recently I saw the evidence of moisture on the OUTSIDE of the shower in the drywall.  And the pieces of tile on the face of the curb were bulging as though there was moisture behind them.  So I cut open the wall, took the tiles down that were on the outside of the shower  and the ones on the curb, without disturbing the shower walls themselves.  Sure enough, soaking wet. And a hugh ant colony of little tiny ants too.  So I sprayed for the ants, removed their nest, pulled out all the insulation and exposed the curb. "

   [email protected]

    

    

    

    

1. 
   Mongo | Jul 05, 2007 04:06am | #14

   The walls and the curb are failing.I agree drywall is probably the culprit.Mongo

   Edited 7/4/2007 9:07 pm ET by Mongo