Replies

1. 
   rez | Jul 29, 2009 05:48pm | #1

   Greetings  non trad stu,

   This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again which will increase it's viewing.

   Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.

   Cheers

   94969.19  In the beginning there was Breaktime...

   94969.1  Photo Gallery Table of Contents

    

2. 
   rez | Jul 29, 2009 05:49pm | #2

   bump

    

3. 
   frenchy | Jul 30, 2009 01:44am | #3

   Building with SIP's is extremely easy but because it requires different steps from normal those who have no experience will often carve a fat hog in their bid.. The few SIP builders I talked to spoke about how much profit they were making not on how fast it is to build with. 

     Unlike stick framed homes it's extremely easy to drill through foam and place wires through them.. Often you can spec wire chases where you want them and you don't even need  to do that.. 

      I ordered my SIP's without the wire chases in them because I decided that I wanted to place them after the house was up. I used a simple spade bit with extensions in order to place the wire chases where I wanted..   I mean how long does it take to drill through foam really? 

    If you get outrageous numbers do it your self (run the wires)  hire an electrician to hook things up if it worries you. 

      Depending on where you live you should not put plumbing inside an outside wall for fear of freezing. If you're in warmer climates it won't be an issue but I would still tend to run plumbing through the floor for ease of maintinace rather than through the wall.

    Please tell me more..

    I mean what state are you in so I can maybe help you to an even better alternative..

1. 
   non trad stu | Jul 30, 2009 04:20pm | #4

   Thank you for responding to the "bumped up post".  Meanwhile I did find a prior thread on a simliar subject that you contributd to and it was helpful but anything you can add is apprecited.  I live in western NC and am contemplating buiding a 1300 - 1400 sq ft 2 bed Arts and Crafts style home for myself.  Since I'm a senior (73) and by myself my kids, who live in southern NH, are trying to get me to move back and I will investigate possibilities up there in a couple of weeks but the winters and cost of housing are not attractive.  I will be working with an architect although I am on a very restricted budget, max of $200K excluding land.  To that end I am reasonably handy, have done wiring and plumbing rough in before and a good woodworker, did all kitchen cabs, stair newels and balustrades (but not installation), mantles etc for my last house.  So I am seeking ways to invest some sweat equity.  Any comments/tips you have are welcomed.

1. 
   TomW | Jul 30, 2009 07:44pm | #5

   I built a 1600 sq ft SIP home in NH and your budget is easily doable, especially with you doing a portion of the work. My electruicians had no issues with te SIP's and the plumbing was all done on interior wall so it is a non-issue. I use less than 400gal propane/year for heat and hot water and I used radiant floor heat throughout. My budget was similiar to yours and I also have a 38'x10' screened in porch (with another 14' ell, and about 1200 sq ft drive under garage, also with radiant heat in the slab. There are several SIP builders in the NH area.

1. 
   non trad stu | Jul 31, 2009 12:13am | #7

   Tom, thank you that's encouraging.  I'll be looking at the Concord area anyone you would reccomend around there?  Also I will be visiting Benson Wood (the timber frame people) but more out of curiosity than hopes that will fit my budget.

2. 
   non trad stu | Aug 02, 2009 12:42am | #18

   Tom, I just contacted a realtor in Concord NH and he is telling me that there is no way I can do it for my budget! He's saying land alone would be$100k (land was not part of my $200k) and up for tha  area and house would be at least $250K.  Now that's Concord so where did you do yours for far less?

1. 
   TomW | Aug 02, 2009 07:02am | #20

   I built mine on Ossipee lake in Freedm, NH and the cost of the panel package was 30k. That was a precut package. I did a lot of the labor myself but I also did some expensive details over the "standard" builder grade type stuff. Anderson 400 windows and doors, (Brock's building materials in rochester was great to work with on those and had the best pricing around.)

   The house has a metal roof, and red cedar shingle siding. I did the radiant floor heat install myself so I probably saved a good bit on labor there, but my 200k price is probably actually pretty high. I just threw it out there. I have been working on the place for four years and I don't keep super accurate records, (though I do have all the receipts, just don't care to total it up).

   A realtor is not looking at what the cost to build is, but what the sale price would be after constructon. I did the majority of the materials purchase just after katrina and prices were sky high. A good bit of those material prices have come down some, and others have increased greatly but I don't think the budget is out of reach, especially if you keep the design relatively simple. No hip roofs, a minimum of structural beams etc...

   Hip roofs are a pain with sips  compared to a simple gable.

   IIRC Ford panel is one company over neare keene NH but I know there are several others. Winter panel is in vermont and are fairly well known in the sip biz. I like r-control panels since their foam is treated with borates so ants "should" be less of an issue.

2. 
   frenchy | Jul 30, 2009 08:43pm | #6

   with consideration of your age and your modest budget I'd forget the SIP's and build with ICF's 

    Whole lot easier, a zillion times lighter, and much, much, faster. Very definately a DIY project!

    Do you know about ICF's? 

1. 
   non trad stu | Jul 31, 2009 12:17am | #8

   Boy you know how to hurt a guy!! <lol>.  My age? Could you be falling into the trap of age profiling?  Hardly PC!!  But I jest.  No I do not know about ICF's so a tutorial is in order and why do you reccomend them as opposed to SIPs for someone of my advanced years and limited budget? (just kidding, but why).

1. 
   frenchy | Jul 31, 2009 01:02am | #10

   You got me, I admit to age bigotry. I'm a mere 61 to you  <grin>   

   SIPs are large big panels  with a block of foam between 2 sheets of OSB.They can weigh hundreds of pounds if they are big enough..

    An ICF on the other hand doesn't weigh hardly anything and they go together like a big foam leggo.  (they are 18 inches high and 4 feet long)

     The heaviest thing involved is a can of spray foam (I used Great Stuff)   Well I just lied.. actaully you need rebar and a 18 foot long piece might weigh 50#s.   But all you have to do is snap the rebar in place..  There are little plastic snaps where it goes.  But even my fat lazy butt can pick them up and put them in place..  So could my sister-in-law who had no experiance at all prior to finishing my foundation when I was bedridden. (And I've got 130#s on her)

    The main note is how simple they are to work with! More later!!!!!

        OK what a ICF is  is an Insulated Concrete Form.   Basically foam with a hollow center for concrete to be poured into.. It makes an extremely strong, safe, and durable wall/ foundation.  

     Depending on who's forms you get it may have an R 15 plus the concrete and then an R 15 techically it gives you an R 30  but it has been argued that you can get even better than that..  (complex subject and subject to a lot of debate and misinformation)

    But R 30 is what you will get with a 6" thick SIP. So it's not bad!

     It's much safer, faster to sheetrock, easy to wire and plumb if you must (altough I don't recommend you plumb in an outside wall in NH)  Ask if you have questions. 

     Buy from the right company and you get technical literature, a video on how to do it, and an expert to check out your work  prior to the pour. 

    I used Reward Forms and I really liked them and their service go to http://www.rewardwalls.com  to see them..

     I'm sure you have questions. ask away. I'll help as much as possible..

    Note,

    you still get to use SIP's on the roof because nothing else works better..

   Edited 7/30/2009 6:03 pm ET by frenchy

2. 
   non trad stu | Jul 31, 2009 03:36am | #12

   Ah!  So that's what they are.  I've seen the Superior Walls product being put in place as a foundation wall are they an ICF?  Of course they came preformed and custom measured.  It sounds as though you are saying that another approach to using ICFs can be on a DYI basis? If so then that raises a whole bunch of questions such as given their depth (I assume it's greater than 6") that must require jamb extensins to windows and doors, are these standard or do they have to be custom made? And is cutting out rough openings truly a DYI job? And I don't know what the protocol is at FH should we take this off line at our private e-mail addresses or is it OK here?  Llet me know.

3. 
   TomW | Jul 31, 2009 04:03am | #14

   Superior wals are not ICF's. I thought sips's were easy to work with, though I made the mistake of using a conventional framing crew rather than a crew that was familiar with SIP's. I thought the learning curve was really quick but I haven't done lot of conventional framing so i am not used to doing things a certain way. I wasted a lot of time showing the crew how to set the panels. Teaching an old dog new tricks etc...Rough openings for windows/doors were easy to cut in and I found the panels pretty easy to handle. Most wereI was able to lift most of them myself. Some required two people. I used r-control panels, 6" walls and 10" roof. purchased from branch river plastics in rhode island. The can sell raw panels or a whole pre-cut package to your plans.

4. 
   frenchy | Jul 31, 2009 06:14am | #16

   Here's fine.. what we share will be picked up by lurkers (& others) and might help them..

    Absolutely ICF's can be a a DIY job!

      OK, ICF's come standard in 9,11,13, & 15 inch thicknesses.. In addition you can get a brick ledge to add another 4 inches to any size..  

     Jam extensions are extremely easy to make.   I ordered standard sized windows/doors (Andersen) and whipped up my own.  If you want I'll talk you through that step.   

    You can, if interested, for very few dollars add timbers to it and make your own timberframe or post and beam. (ask for details if interested) 

    Yes cutting openings really is a Do-It-Yourself job.. so simple you won't believe it!

    You cut them before the concrete is poured so all you have to do is cut the foam, install a wood buck and then when you are ready pour the concrete.. (more details But I'll cover those issues later)..

    Maybe you should look at the pictures of my place.   Go over to the left, in advanced search enter 85891.1 And scroll through that  then go to 94941.1 and scroll through those.

    Also check out the website I gave you.  http://www.rewardwalls.com (just click on the blue print and it will take you there)

    Anyway the normal approach is to use the wider forms on the foundation and the 9 inch forms on the wall (6 inches of concrete)  the differance is the ledge you set the floor on.

     Or you can use brick ledge turned inside.  Lots of differant ways to achieve the same thing..  

    

    

5. 
   non trad stu | Aug 02, 2009 12:37am | #17

   Thanks again.  I did check out that web site plus one on SIPs that someone else gave me.  So now I know enough to be dangerous about these two approaches!  Do you  know of any cost comparison studies between these?  I can guess that it really depends on how familiar and confortable the GC  and his/her subs are with either.  Neither is something my time would allow for DYI.

6. 
   frenchy | Aug 02, 2009 01:02am | #19

   I don't have any real back to back comparisons between the two systems (in spite of having built with both).

    The trouble is I was able to buy my SIP's locally from a national manufacturer at wholesale prices and I was also able to haul them home myself for no real cost.

    On the other hand I bought ICF's and paid retail plus I was not able to save the cost of transportation.  (a major consideration because of their bulk)

    I fear with either system because there are few people with any real experiance doing it the costs will be monumental. No real competition!

    When contractors have no real experiance.. (less than 2% of new homes are built with anything other than stick framing) they increase price to cover that lack of knowledge plus they can increase it again because there is so little competition. Without that competition there is no drive to make their work efficent and cost worthy.

    All I can say is that having built with both if I were to build another house in the future It would be with all ICF walls and SIP's for the ceiling..

    By the way  by spending a few hundred dollars you could replicate the look of a true timberframe inside your SIP's or ICF's .

7. 
   Biff_Loman | Jul 31, 2009 03:36am | #13

   Frenchy's an ICF evangelist. Just so you know.

8. 
   frenchy | Jul 31, 2009 05:54am | #15

   Fair enough..

     I built my house on a foundation of ICF's I did myself.. however I used SIP's to panel and roof my  double timberframe.

    With that experiance I wish I had made the whole wall system out of ICF's  They are massively easier to do..

    

4. 
   ebeveridge | Jul 31, 2009 12:46am | #9

   check out WWW.sipschool.org I went to their sips school and am very impressed. lots of good information. I will break ground on my sips home next march. good luck.

    

    

1. 
   non trad stu | Jul 31, 2009 03:14am | #11

   Thanks for the link and I will certainally see if I can attend.  Godd luck with your project.