we have a job going right now
owner walked through job with electrician when in rough framing
added lots of stuff, lots
I was not part of all the discussions, I was busy framing as we were behind schedule and they were there to wire
rough wire bill comes, ouch, owner says no way, they didnt knwo it was gonna cost so much, electricain didnt say anything to them
electricain never said anything to me about numbers, prices
electrican says , I dont care, it’s your ( me Isamemon) name on the contract, your the general, you pay for it all and collect from the owner
well if it was a few hundred, not worth the fight , owner would have paid.
were talking about 9k in changes on a 3200 sq ft house. And the changes only include changes in the walls as to number of plugs, and number of can lights
Im jsut a samll fish, the electrican, Ive used only them for years, is a big fish in the good old boys club. Have 2 more houses lined up for the year, was going to use them , but now,hmmmmm, getting new bids as we speak
so , Ive read a bunch of the archives, have a call into lawyer, but
who should pay the bill ??? yeah I know, probabally me
Replies
Your contract with the HO should have a written No CO no changes in it.
Your contract with the subs should have two clauses in it. No CO no changes and Only Directions from the GC.
Now knowing what agreement that you have had with the sub in the past or by contract.
But it sounds like you have a "contract" with him (via the orginal plans at least) to do ABC.
He arranged with the HO to do XYZ.
No I am a HO, not a contractor, but to me it seem that you only owe him the orginal amount and it is between him and the HO to figure out the rest.
First question(s), did the electrical sub make you aware of the changes prior to you recieving the bill? Did you notice the additional outlets etc before recieving the bill? Did the homeowner mention the changes to you?
second question.
Do you have a policy with your subs in regard to changes to job specs and how they should be processed?
Our is quite clear to the subs.
1) changes, decesions etc. all must run through this office, subs are not to make changes, home owner requested or not, to the job specs with out checking it through the office first. they are to complete exactly what the contract spells out unless given a change order or permission by us to do otherwise.
2) if a sub changes something, adds something, adds more to the job cost, with out telling us about it, it's on their dime. so sorry, so sad, but "they" know the rules.
along those lines, our customers are told the same thing, if they want to make a change, that's great, we want them to have exactly the final product they desire, but these changes must be made through a company rep and not simply through a sub-contractor. we can afford to give up that control and still maintain a grasp on the job.
I'm guessing you do not have a policy of sorts, great time to start one!
If it were me and my company, I'd try to have a sit down with all three parties and working something out, in the end I'd imagine it's going to cost you something, but to swallow 9k all on your own is not something I'd take laying down, but it's not my company, so take it for what it's worth.
the situation sucks, I'd be leaning hard on both the sub and the homeowner.
Well
What I have learned so far<!----><!---->
is that when a sub bids a job from a set of prints, I will have them sign a set that he bids from and get them back, so Ill get two sets or at least pages relevant to him, no biggy<!---->
Next I will be sending to all subs, real soon, that no change unless in writing and signed by whomever is paying for it. Im not sending out until the dust settles on this one, as I don’t want that sub freaking out YET. Unfortunately we have had a good relationship in the past, but this is the second time in two years in many projects that we have had this kind of issue....yeah should have learned the first time, but the last time was about 275 and owner paid it no problem<!---->
In our terms and conditions of our contracts it states this<!---->
#1........... Any deviation, written or verbal, from the original agreement or original drawings involving extra costs will become an extra charge over the agreed price set forth herein<!---->
#16... Changes and change orders that cause extra costs are the financial responsibility of the owner if costs exceed the particular line item budgeted within approved contract and line item budget submitted to lender<!---->
so I hope Ill get to walk from this,
or as they say
experience is expensive tuition
by the way, Im not putting this out for the old, oh poor guy factor, but for advice for me, and a gentle reminder to all of you/us GET THOSE CHANGES SIGNED
boy how many times have we heard that before
What's with the homeowner, is his head up his ####. Does he think he can go "shopping" and not have to pay for it. Make the homeowner pay. He was the big shot when he thought it was your dime.
Bear
I was not part of all the discussions, I was busy framing as we were behind schedule and they were there to wire
If you are the GC, you SHOULD have been part of the discussion. If you were not, then you were NOT doing your job. That is what the HO is paying you for, to contract! If you were too busy for what ever reason then you should have made other arrangements for the walk through with the electrician. Now you are on damage control.
rough wire bill comes, ouch, owner says no way, they didnt knwo it was gonna cost so much, electricain didnt say anything to them
Now it's the electrician who is not doing their job. He should have spoken to you BEFORE he did anything not on the plans, and should have made adjustments to the payments.
electricain never said anything to me about numbers, prices
Yeah well tough on him, he made the arrangements with someone he did NOT have a contract with. Who the hell did he think was gonna pay him??
You all screwed up except maybe the HO who is possibly manipulating the two of you. Perhaps you all should split the difference three ways after the electrician lowers the price to his cost.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Ill take plead the fith, or take a fith at this point
Eric, your first comment is harsh.....yet I DESERVE it, I agree, I should have been right there saying , wait a second
but for whatever reason I was not, I kind of see your point ( thats a leagal way of not syaing yes or no)
2nd point , I agree again. somone , if they are a sub who cares, like I said we have been using them for years, through thick and thin, should have come to me and said, hey bud do you know what she is asking us to do and what this will cost. I would have.
3) he clains he is trying to help me out and is going at cost. baloney. I think now he under bid it, thinking this job wasnt going to happen, and it was winter in the recession, and he now has lost his asp and is turning down good high dollar jobs because of us,
I woul dprefer for the owner to say yep I siad it , Ill pay it,
right now Id settle for a 3rd, thats probabally what the lawyer would cost anyway
boy I sure wish I could walk into a job and by the time I was finished ask double the price with nothing on paper to say it was approved, adn get paid for it
man I wouldnt be driving a pick up with 160k on it or working 7 days a week
maybe he has it right
shoot its a me me me world
I dont watch my asp enough , I trust others too much
rattle rattle, jar of rolaids almost empty
isa... i feel your pain, man..
but experience has taught me.... when the homeowner is cruisin, i'm bird doggin ... and any conversation between the owner and my subs involves me too..
my subs are good.. but they're the subs.. they often don't know what their decsions do to the rest of the job... and the owner certainly doesn't..
so.. it all goes thru me... including the pricing.... want to consider a change?... we discuss it.. i tell the homeowner i'll get the price change from the sub and prepare a change order..4 times out of 5 , they sign off.... but the 5th time when they balk at the price is the little reminder of why we get signed change orders
and that's what we do...
even then,it's hard to control the daily creep.. wanting to do things to make them better, but continually reminding myself that we only make them better if we get paid for itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Been there as an electrician.
HO walks in with their eyes full of stars. Walk up to the electrician and 'suggest' that it would be nice to have this added. Then that added. Over the course of a week or so the bills add up.
The electrician doesn't want to seen as uncooperative. He assumes that the HO, who is ultimately paying for everything, understands that the additions add to the cost. Albeit, if it is done right, while adding a lot to the value, comfort and amenities of the whole house.
In a perfect world the plans would include all these additions before the ground was broken and the entire electrical job would be specified, detailed, negotiated and finalized before the contract was signed.
Alternately all changes, even minor ones, would be written up as detailed change orders, agreed to and signed off by both the HO and the GC before any work was done. This works best where the HO is building the house as an investment, this limits the attachment and associated dream factor, and is seldom present.
Electrical work on these, as long as they remain only what was on the plan, can go very fast. Everything is known. All the supplies can be bought all at once, at considerable savings, and delivered in a single package. A good deal for remote sites. The HO also gets a very low price as the contractor can cut a lot of the fudge factor he adds to cover contingencies. Of course if it starts as a 'plan only' job and the HO starts interfering these jobs, because the contractors haven't included a cushion and the HO is expecting a low price, can go south fast. Conflict and recriminations are built in.
Of course in the real world I find the best thing to do with most plans is to toss them. Sure the plans were negotiated, drawn up and signed off on. Then the real question gets asked of, or the view asserted by, the HO: 'What do you really want?'.
Then the games begin. A non-bearing wall or two get moved. The kitchen gets completely redesigned when the lady of the house decides she really wants an island. The heat plant and water heater can no longer go into the garage because the man of the house wants the room for a workbench. The master bath grows to accommodate the whirlpool tub. The third bedroom is converter into a home office so it will need a few dedicated circuits, a couple of extra phone lines, DSL and provisions for updating all these with new technology.
On a 'happy-go-lucky' job, where the HOs are not shy with the money a casual can-you-add-Yes-maam-we-will relationship can work. Been on a few of those jobs. No documentation. Just a tacit understanding that the electrician is going to give them the highest value wiring job they can. I have been on a few of these jobs. Mostly a matter of trust and the availability or cavalier attitude to funds.
Not entirely without irony these happy jobs are often more efficient. Having to stop work, interview the HO to figure out what they want and how it can be accommodated, documenting this formally and getting estimates and signatures from the head electrical contractor, possibly his estimator, the GC and HO takes time. Time that has to be paid for. Ultimately by the HO.
None of this solves your problem but it goes some way in explaining how these things happen and the relative merits and costs of each method of doing business.
In this case your going to have to lean on all sides. You have to emphasize that the requests made by the HO, or their agent, are, in effect, verbal agreements to pay for work done. Point out that the work done, the work they asked for, is quality work done to keep them happy and deserves compensation. Point out that their adding things without a written change order was a matter of trust by the contractor. Trust that should not be snubbed.
The electrical contractor has to be pressured to give the absolute best price for the work done. Normal profit margins don't apply because there is no written agreement. He failed to get change orders so he bears some of the blame. Shrinking the bill for the additional work done will make it easier to swallow for the HO.
Then you need to swallow hard and pitch in some yourself. Your signature, and more importantly your reputation for taking care of the contractors working for you, is on the line. In some ways you let the job get away from you. Dig deep. If everyone bleeds a little none need receive a deep wound.
4lorn1
to you I also agree with hitch
a lot of the changes were recomended by the electrician, and he may have been right
you need more lights here, these vauted ceiling should really have slope cans instead of flat cans ( which he bid in the beginging). However the last house he did wiht vaults, he used standard cans and never brought it up
and the homeowner said that when she asked will this cost much, he siad not much ( I guess thats all realtive, not much to what , his new retirement home?, did I mention he is retireing after this summer)
shoot you have good points too , as did Eric
maybe I am being me me me too, I jsut dont think it should all come down to me, and I would take a third cut , but the whole bill, I dont know
my wife is terrified Illl eat it, to me , I jsut roll my eyes, take deep breaths, pray and eat rolaids
now that you've gotten the beating you deserve, some practical advice:
1. Legally, your sub contracted outside your contract for additions. It's between him and the HO since he didn't go through you. But that doesn't really help you except if there's a lawsuit.
2. This is the time you step in as mediator. From what you said, the HO didn't expect the changes for free, but 9k in a 3200 sq.ft. house sounds incredible. You don't mention whether you think the sub was reasonable, but it sure doesn't sound like it. You need to have a nice chat with the sub that he can't do changes without putting a number to it and come up with 9k at the end. If he was unreasonable to begin with in coming up with 9k, tell him so and use a reasonable number as his starting number. The fact that he's come up with 9k doesn't mean that anybody, HO or you, should accept that as real. A fair number is a fair number, and that doesn't change.
3. You then tell the sub that he screwed up by not giving a number. Without a price, there is no "meeting of the minds" between him and the HO. Since you weren't there, and he knew you weren't there, and he never went to you with the changes or prices, you certainly couldn't have known the damage. Tell him that not only will he not get this number, but he's screwing you up with the HO and creating a situation where everybody is going to walk away unhappy, at least partially unpaid, and with somebody speaking very poorly about him.
4. There's no point to all of this. Does he really want to sue the HO? Does he really want to pay a lawyer and then get his fee cut to shreds, and maybe lose most if not all of it, at the end of the day? What good does this do anyone.
5. Take the real number, whatever that may be, cut it in thirds. The sub eats a third, you eat a third and the HO eats a third. No money is lost to lawyers. Everybody walks away with something. The only thing lost for you and the sub is a little time, which happens. And you keep the customer. Everybody learns a lesson about understanding what they are doing before hand, and nobody gets hurt too badly.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I don't like the 'thirds' at all. Who says the $9K is justified? Yeah, I know we hate to talk about what's a fair price, and we hate to dissect people's pricing, but in this case it's gotta happen. If it's me, that $9K gets beat down to a lower number, because as Isa said the electrician is trying to make up for a lousy bid earlier and milk the snot out of the job on the first change. Funk that.
He wants to bill for a change, he shows me every single changed item in writing, what was changed to what, how many manhours, how much material, every item detailed... the much-feared line-item bid! Don't just throw a bill at me that says "C/O #1, changes by owner, $9K". Since the electrician is stupid enough to play this game with Isa then it has to get ugly.
Once that bill is at the right number, it goes to the homeowner. Although Isa blew it and did not referee the electrical meeting, he is the contractor and needs to get his client to pay the bill. How many times have we heard from homeowners that they didn't expect it to cost that much?? How many times has your dog eaten your homework?? The itemized electrical bill goes to the H/O as a GC change order and the job stops unless it gets paid. Isa skips his markup and profit on it as a gesture for failing to run the cost by the HO first, and the electrician goes home with a fat lip.
Isa... come on, dude... stop framing when it's time to run the job! If a sub is on the job, you are one step ahead of him. And if you do not have a written subcontract that specifies all changes in writing or no change at all, then go write one now. Your best play right now is a strong one, re-establish yourself as the guy calling the shots by spanking the other players. Sub gets raked over the coals, owner pays.
My subs are mostly like Jeff's, and this would not happen, but some owners are good at talking to the production guys and asking for extras. It must be made crystal clear to everyone that ALL direction comes from the GC and the HO is ignored if they ask for extras directly.
I'd agree with you, but for one thing. When you don't get approval on a change as to price, you take your chances. It does not mean it's a blank check, and it does not mean that Isa is going to get his butt in a sling with his customer to get the sub paid. I can just see the right where Isa is arguing with the HO on behalf of the sub. Why should he be in this position? And at the end of the day, is it really worth creating a war with the HO for this?
If this is going to be your only job in the world, then fight for every penny. If you plan to stay in the business, then everybody has to learn to eat their mistakes, whether it tastes good or not.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I wouldn't have a problem going to the HO for payment on this, IF (and these could be big IFs).... (1) the C/O cost was reasonable and I could demonstrate that, and (2) the HO was a reasonably upstanding person who agreed that he asked for the changes. I put just about 100% of my effort to make sure I work in circumstances where both are true.
If the HO is going to lie about what he asked for, and/or the electrician is trying to get $500 for every inch he moved a switch, then Isa's screwed and even the 1/3 thing won't work.
Times like this I'm glad I have a grumpy old electrician ... who ain't so old but is plenty grumpy. His last thought is pleasing yet another stary eyed home owner.
He'd pull me over fast as could be to ask Just who's paying for these new dreams?
Sometimes he even annoys me ... but I know full well he's covering all our butts.
Plus ... he just plain grumpy. But a fantastic electrician.
Jay'd never let this happen to me ... and for that ... I'm just plain lucky!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Guy sounds like me. Have we met?
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten!
What Mike Says!
What caught my eye was $9k in changes... Holy Ship! Whats the total bid before changes? For $9k in this neck of the Woods you could get a whole lot of electrical with all the Bells & Whistles in 3200 sq. ft.
Hope it all works out!
U gotta get a better system.
Read my reply to 4Lorn. This would never happen to me ... and not thru any of my doing! My guys all work together .. even when they don't know each other ...
and we all protect each other. Any deviation from the norm gets a big time tailgate discussion. I'm lucky, as everyones first motivation is money ... we all know the customer satisfaction will come later ... every sub bends over backwards to please ... but only after a direct chain of command to that money is first established.
Like I've said ... this would not happen to me ... thru no work of my own! My subs would know enough to protect me ... as I do them. U need a better plan of action. Big time sit downs ... straighten the battle plan out before facing the customer/enemy!
All subs on board. Everyone looks out for everyone else.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I. For the Future:
a) At the signing of the original contract I submit, to the HO, copies of my CO and Addendum To Contract forms. These serve to remind the HO that changes are expected and we have a process to deal with them. Within the forms, there is a clear line item for COST. Another reminder. Later, if a side arrangement is made with a sub (Big No No), I remind them of the process and its importance.
b) You should, from experience, whether intuitive or by discussion, have a pretty good per-point cost breakdown of the construction process. Example: each electrical point costs $40 (new construction) $120 (renovations) etc. This can then be compared to any and all up-charges from your subs.
II. For Now:
a) HOs aren’t dumb. Even though they may try to persuade you that they are paying for a packaged house/ addition/ renovation, they understand this package contains units of cost, which when added together, equals Project Cost. This became evident when they negotiated the contract price. For the HO to comment that all the changes should not affect cost is a bunch hooey. Do you think that if they thought it cost LESS they wouldn’t be asking for the reduction in price amount? However, the HO is within his rights to state that he didn’t know how MUCH more. That’s a legit claim but does not entitle the HO to a discount or freebies.
b) You haven’t explained why you were absent. Were you busy framing and therefore didn't know about the meeting or did you know about it but did not think it would lead to anything that wouldn't be run by you? That could lead to some liability, but all parties should have understood that at a minimum, as the GC you must be informed of all changes in the scope of work regardless of cost.
c) You have not mentioned your O&P as related to the $9K figure. When included, I am guessing that the true cost is probably more like $12K. So if you are going to divide the $9K figure into thirds, you’re actually taking a hit of $6K. NOT acceptable! Forget splitting this 3 ways, regardless.
d) The electrician knew he had a contract with you not the HO. This is why he is submitting a bill to YOU. He should have informed you of any side discussions and agreements with the HO. It’s time for you to remind him of that. This will serve you well in the future and will also inform the other subs that you are serious about your business and its practices. An establishing a precedent moment.
e) Tell the electrician and the HO they have 3 options:
i) The HO pays for all the changes and everything remains as is.
ii) The new work can be ripped out and returned to the original configuration at the electrician’s expense.
iii) The THREE of you walk the job and the HO tells you which points he wants to keep AND pay for. The rest gets ripped out at the electrician's expense. To simplify this, have the electrician give the HO an average per point cost. A basic fixture cost would also help.
Regardless of option, HO signs a CO form and you tack on your O&P fee. Don’t even think of waiving your fee, otherwise you will encourage the HO to believe your fee is negotiable and that by going behind your back, he is rewarded with a discount equal to your O&P. Another establishing a precedent moment.
What it boils down to is the electrician made a mistake by entering into an agreement with the HO, assumed the HO understood the added cost, and assumed your role didn't begin until the invoice was submitted. Or he just plain forgot to tell you of the additions. Regardless, he owns these errors and you shouldn't allow him to make you take any responsibility.
Oh, one last thing. Stop thinking in terms of lawyers. You are no where near that. You are, from what I gather, reasonable adults and have it within yourselves to resolve this.
I hope this helps,
Frankie
"To simplify this, have the electrician give the HO an average per point cost."
I definitely don't think pricing information should come from the sub to the HO. The GC is responsible for pricing everything and contracting with the HO. If the sub gives the info then the GC either looses his markup or he has to justify it, or both, neither good.
You are absolutely correct. My error. Instead, the sub should give the GC a fundemental unit price cost list. The GC can then adjust these costs to incorporate his costs. These end costs should be what is TOLD to the HO. Either way, I neglected to say that the final cost should not be determined at the time of the walk through. The unit costs only serve as a rough estimate tool for the HO to understand that those 5 additional outlets in this room cost 5 x $X and the 6 recessed lights in the cathedral ceiling of the livingroom costs 6 x $Y and involve an adjustment to the wallboarding cost...F
Edited 4/16/2005 1:38 pm ET by Frankie
All
So where was Isa??<!----><!---->
I was framing, yes wrong. I’ve used the electrician for years, I trusted him. In a discussion with the owner. We all decided that if a ceiling got reframed, it would look better and the lighting would work better (hard to explain, other then it was and still is not a flat ceiling). I said that it would take us about 20 minutes, and the guys were in that room wiring, so myself and two others hit it hard , to stay ahead of him, as he walked through with the owner and looked at other “stuffâ€<!---->
What was added about 22 more can lights and 40 plugs and 4 switches and a speaker system? Yes really, that much stuff.<!---->
I don’t argue that that all costs money. <!---->
My concerns right now, we have not stopped working, and he got us the bill after drywall, so it’s not getting ripped out now without a tremendous amount of costs to someone. We had to keep working or face penalties for not finishing by a deadline<!---->
He still has to do trim out on this job, so piss him off big time now, what happens at trim out.<!---->
Hess not going any further until paid and we are ready for trim out in a week<!---->
I thought in my contract lines 1 and 16 (listed in posts above) covered my butt and that’s the attack I’m taking with the homeowner, however someone else posted change orders not in writing don’t count in law<!---->
Boy have I learned big time<!---->
Got news for you Mon,
My electrician gets between $90 and 125.oo for each one of the 66 points you have then add the speaker system............your guys price aint that far off.
Good luck,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Well that's a horse of a different color!The HO knows this and realizes that what is there will stay. Therfore he thinks he has a barganing position. HA!Looks to me that he added 66 more points plus a speaker system - 5 or 10 more points. How many were there originally? %-Wise how does this unit cost compare to the original bid?Next, do I understand correctly? You were up against a deadline with penalties, if late, yet you layed out and installed 66+ more electrical points within the original time frame? I don't know whether to high-five you or give you a dope-slap! All my COs have a line item addressing how much time is affected by a change in the Scope of Work.When explaining the CO cost to the HO, be sure to point out - in no uncertain terms - that you did him a favor in staying within the original schedule, while doing x% more electrical work and not charging a rush fee. You need to tell him that though HE (along with the electrician) didn't follow the proper protocall, you took care of his wishes and got the work done. Now it's time for him to take care of/ pay you. You went above and beyond your job. Now it's time for him to do his.BTW - how you handle this, your professionalism, will define your relationship for the rest of the project and how you are thought of afterwards. Keep it professional, don't cave-in or even compromise. You could have done that if the HO asked you for a $ early on. He took you out of the loop and let you remain out of the loop. If the HO does not take full responsibility for the invoice, everything from now on will be renegotiated after the fact. The HO is testing you - maybe because money is getting tight, maybe for fun, maybe because he can't loose. For him the worst that can happen is that he pays the full bill. Anything he saves from that is considered a win.Stop blaming yourself. Be strong and resolute!Frankie
It's amazing that you've cast the HO as some scheming scam artist who's trying to steal from the sub. That's coming from you, not Isa. He hasn't said anything bad about his customer, and said that customer was willing to pay but was shocked by the bill after the sub told him it wouldn't be much.
Careful about that prejudice against HOs. Thems the people who pays the money.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
" ouch, owner says no way,"I went back and reread Isa's posts. That is the remark I took my cue from. However I don't see anything stating that the HO is willing to pay. I also noted that the HO is a woman not a man. Therefore I was incorrect referring to her as him.Regardless, since Isa's wife thinks he will give-in, I opted to take an agressive approach. It is easier to do this by coloring the HO as hostile. Considering it's $9K or $12K with O&P and someone, anyone, for any reason doesn't want to pay, well, I get a bit hot under the collar. As for the comment "it won't be much": Well, when building a house, I don't think $100 is much in the grand scheme. However, multiply that by 66 and you're starting to talk about real money! Now add the cost of 40 lighting fixtures - another $600 - $1,000 ($15 -$25@ cheap) + ... Cha-Ching! When was the "not much" comment made? Was it regarding add'l point #1 or #60? I dunno.Please do not interpret my comments as painting the HO as a schemer or scam artist - your words, not mine. I was just explaining what is at stake for her. She gave the verbal "go ahead" - nobody disputes that - and didn't ask that a cost be submitted prior to commencement of work - nobody disputes that either.I was trying to encourage Isa to be more firm and stop thinking in terms of "nice." Polite, yes. Professional, yes. Firm, yes, but nice has never served me well in these situations and thwarted subsequent collection efforts. Either/ both the E or the HO has to take responsibility and Isa is still due his %. THEY cut him out and that is unacceptable. The GC is there as the liason between the subs and the HO. When they bypass the GC, they have no grounds for the GC taking ANY responsibility other than help sort things out. This F'up has taken up his time and energies and will continue to.Frankie
I see your point. I think there's enough screw ups here to go around, but poor Isa's not getting anything good out of this no matter what he does.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
I still say he needs to present and explain the bill, and insist on payment. Why shouldn't he?? If he's like me he does not have any money that he wants to invest in his client's property. 66 openings (points) at between $75 and $200 each would easily run into $9K, so the price sounds appropriate. Isa needs to insist on payment.
A careful homeowner will not simply order the work done, they will ask for a price. It doesn't sound like she did that--she just went ahead and ordered the work done--so she needs to pay up.
no reason to argue the point with me. it's up to Isa. the only question is whether he takes responsible for his portion of the problem, or will he demand that the HO pay everything regardless of how he and the sub screwed up. chance are he won't get it, will blow the job and make an enemy if he refuses to take responsibility for his portion of the screw up. but it's his call, not mine.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
the way things are looking I wont be able to have pizza for a few weeks, Ill be eating copper wires and stuff
not giving up on it though and Ill let you all know.
but have to keep moving on, start another house in two weeks, and not enough of a profit in it to balance out that loss
such is life
I like donating time and building for habitat of humanity
just didnt know I was doing it for the rich and famous too
just didnt know I was doing it for the rich and famous too
sometime it sucks. but two thoughts to keep in mind. if the HO is a decent person, they may well make it up to you after seeing that you're a stand up guy and not wanting you to take a hit. maybe not, but karma has a way of doing that.
second, if they are the r&f, then you might want to say, in the course of your casual conversation, that the sub mistakenly believed that this was chump change to people in their circumstances. He hadn't realized that they had to watch their pennies, or he would have given them a full estimate. Sometimes, this reminds the r&f that when they want to play the part, they have to act the part.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
My immediate response was that the sparky contracted for work out of the defined parameters and without an approved change order. Thus... he contracted for the extra work on his own (his responsibility to collect).
I read what was ordered. I agree that it sounds WELL within costs.
Of course... it is easy to say... harder to execute... the concept of the electrician contracting for work on his own (and the HO creating an outside relationship with the electrician). The HO will look to you to fix it (you are a god), and the electrician will look to you to get paid (you are a bottomless pit of money). Both of them are wrong. The only person you are obligated to be a god for... and be a bottomless pit of money for... is your wife!! Neither of the others qualify for the job if it is already occupied!
You need to create the environment to resolve this. "Professional" is the optimal word here. You need to get the HO to understand that changes cost money (unique concept), and the cost of these changes are VERY reasonable (at least from what you have supplied for info). You need to hang your electrician from a beam for making changes without a signed change-order.
I disagree that you need to get the electrician, the HO, and you in a meeting to discuss. It will only degenerate into a shouting match. UNLESS both are able to conduct themselves in a very professional manner (which your HO has proven is not the case by making changes without you... and your electrician has proven by accepting changes without a signed change-order).
If it was my electrician and my job.... I fine my electrician 1.5k (in this case) for contracting for work outside of acceptable parameters (in my contract). I tell the HO that they made the changes without following protocol and you are being extremely generous for not putting your markup on the change-orders. You explain to BOTH of them that any further changes made without following protocol will NOT be acceptable and will not be collected (for the electrician)... and WILL be subject to your mark-up... no further discussion... no negotiation.
You have 1.5k to negotiate from the fine. If you get it all... pay it all to the electrician minus your administrative costs... plus a good old-fashioned buttock-chewing. If you have to negotiate down to the "new figure"... you pay the electrician the new figure... plus a REALLY good old-fashioned buttock chewing.
Send out a notice to all subs explaining that you will not honor any change order charges not processed through appropriate protocol. No exceptions, no negotiations, no sheit, and no crying on the job site.
Generically... it's great to say that you should be there for all changes. Great in theory... not always the case. In reality, you disrespected the HO by not being there for this walk-through (opting instead to work on the framing). Your electrician disrespected you by making the changes without informing you and following protocol. The HO disrespected you by not informing you of the changes they wanted made after discussions with the electrician. Everyone disrespected the value of money and time. Lots and lots of disrespect by everyone. It's up to you to re-establish the respect of ALL involved (including yourself). Professionalism is the ONLY way to do this.
Best wishes.
>Generically... it's great to say that you should be there for all changes. Great in theory... not always the case. In reality, you disrespected the HO by not being there for this walk-through (opting instead to work on the framing).Moving beyond the specifics of this example, the electrician could have just as easily done that walk-through when Isa was in the can, or at a doctor's appointment, or off getting materials, or 9 at night. While he shoulda/woulda/coulda been along, it easily coulda happened when he couldn't have been there. That doesn't give the electrician the license to contract changes that Isa gotta pay for. Isa needs to cover this situation in his contract and, as you said, read the riot act to his subs. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I gotta believe the electrician knows he was making a deal behind your back. My electrician would have given me a heads up early on. Its not like there was no GC on the job and the HO was the only consenting party.
I also gotta believe the electrician has been doing this for a very long time (if he's about to retire) and he knows better. Damn better!
Theres some top notch advice here, I like david meilands the best. I think you need to put the other two faces in a chair looking at each other and let them explain to you why it should cost you any additional sleep or money.
They negotiated additional scope of work without you, let them negotiate the bill for that work and leave you out of it.
How did 22 can lights and 40 plugs get ADDED to the original scope of work? Did the original plan not have any electrical? Did the sq ft triple?First, I would go over the original work order and tag every original fixture/wire/etc. Subtract out any that were not installed. Was this a reasonable amount of outlets and fixtures for the space? If it wasn't then both the GC and electrician are at fault for not pointing it out THEN.Now count up what is installed in total. How does the original scope of work compare to what was done in the end. Is it about double? If so, and I was the homeowner, I'd be ok with double the charge. But if the original electrical bid wasn't really for what was on the plans or even what is necessary (in a general sense) for the space, then I would be PO'd (as I am - I got a bill from the electrician for nearly 5 times the original amount).I really don't understand how this many lights and outlets could be added if the original plan was close to sufficient. Particularly the outlets, where code requirements already call for a lot. 40 MORE? I hardly have 40 in my whole house, and I have a big house.Something seems out of kilter here. I would certainly be comparing the original work order and the final product first, before anything else.
guys
if nothing else let this be a reminder to all of us
GET THOSE &*&%^%&^&%^ CHANGE ORDERS SIGNED
Also the suggestion about sending a note about change order "rules"change orders to subs
did it the other day
here is a new kicker, electricina had a change in office staff, did send out the state required lien notice information until last week. Job started in Novemeber.
They waited to bill me until after they sent out the notice of amount due. thata partially covers their asp
my last post , ( but Ill keep reading) my next time here at this thread will be for the final outcome
I agree with your assessment. 22 more cans and 40 more receps sounds outrageous.
If the drawings didn't include any lighting and electrical plans, this electrical sub should be shot for such a gross underbid. And the contractor should have questioned the lack of enough electrical details or specs to come up with a reasonable base bid.
I've got a 3000 sf high end house to do, with a total of 50 receps in the whole thing, and that is counting the ones behind major appliances, outside, etc. There are plenty of cans, and the total is 51, including the shower lights.
Sounds like someone went in lowballin'.
On a lot of the cost-plus-without-good-upfront-budget work I've seen, lighting, switching, and receps are all decided upon once the frame is up. Lighting designers, interior designers, and owners all parade through, and start to do the whole design from their visual sense of the space and needs.
That sounds like what happened here, on a smaller scale, although with a completely different expectation of cost, from the owner. Too bad. All three parties look bad, now.
ok
to address the last point. the inital bid , I did have another electricain bid it too and he was within 1k, so I stuck with the old tired and true good guy who never ever burned me before
NOW HERE THIS
as of about 10 minutes ago , we are done, in more ways then one
no baloney, the electrician refigured his price and came down over $4000
yes no bull
and the homeowner said SOLD
and there are details I left out, but it all hinges around the electrician blew it
during this house, the company left us twice for one of the good old boys, golfin buddies
his office/book keeper quit
they did not send out any lien nformation notices ( as required by law)
the electrican that wired the house walked off and quit
the mom and dad, whose business this is/was ( who I had delt with for years) had to come back out of retirement to fix this mess for their son
amd Ill end up eatin about 1500
but heck the lawyer would have been a whole lot more then that
everybody is happy for now
in the meantime
I have a new electrical sub who already started in on the next project
I have a somehat happier client
I supported the rolaids company for two weeks
I can swear I have a few more gray hairs and wrinkles
and maybe I can sleep tonight
and I want to thank all of you for your support and kind words and wisdom
so the last thing I want to say is
GET THOSE FRICKIN CHANGE ORDERS SIGNED
Edited 4/20/2005 9:57 pm ET by Isamemon
As Mel Allen would say
How about that!
Happy Days are here again
I'm happy for ya. Hope you get a good, deep sleep tonight.
All's well that ends well.
say goodnight, Gracie..................goodnight Gracie...................
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?It's a small revolver and any five cards."
I just hope your project is 100% (ie passed final electrical inspection). "The electrican that wiried the house walked off & quit" I could tell you many a story of what has happened after an angry electrican / plumber bailed.
just did a quick add/count in my head ...
did a 1600ft sq basement last year.
not counting under/in cabinet lighting ... or "nook accent lighting" ...
28 ceiling lights ... most cans ... some flush mount.
and roughly 40 recepticals. Counted the 4 gangs as 2 each.
Your house is severely under lit and doesn't sound as if the rec's would meet code spacing. Has to be bare minimum if they do. My electrician would never let that happen .. and my customers are forever happy he dosn't.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I don't think we'll be underlit. I did not count the strip lights, undercabs, strips above coves for indirect, surface mounts, sconces, vanity lighting, etc. Just the cans.
Nor the plugmold strips under all wall cab runs, which are extensive. We've got a lot of walls and alcoves loaded up with window seats and other built-ins, which precluded outlets there.
Clients and I did a two-hour walkthrough of the prototype house, of which this will be a knockoff, and it was lit and electrified just like the plans show, so I think we'll be OK. My sparkie added a few here and there, to be safe in the bid.
My remarks were directed at the sparkie and GC that bid the subject job, supposedly from plans, and how insufficient the plans and bid were to reflect the actual. The number of added fixtures and recep openings sounded outrageous, and it still sounds that way. Must be that the owner hadn't even looked at or had input for his electrical drawings.
I am glad everything turned out well for Isa and his client.
Ok <!----><!---->
Let me bend over and grab my ankles
Heartache, gray hairs, ulcers<!---->
We get this all worked out, everyone is OK, not great, just OK<!---->
Walk through today<!---->
Can we add a light here and …………………<!---->
Somebody shoot me<!---->
Please<!---->
<!----> <!---->
Bottom Line it
Did you add the light? LOL
Can we add a light here and Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…Â…
just say 'no'...
"there's enough for everyone"
:Can we add a light here and …………………"Sure, why not.Just get out the CO form and show him the price of $5,000.Say you will start as soon as you have the check.
And there will be more. That's the business were in. This time, get a price from the electrician (don't question it), add your other costs - supervision, laborer, GWB repair - and your O&P. Have the Change Order signed and get paid for it BEFORE any new work is begun.No more favors or Mr. Niceguy. Keep it business-like and professional. This will send a clear message to the client that she was getting preferred treatment before and didn't appreciate it. Her loss.Frankie
I live in Los Angeles where half the flakey customers wind up. Here's what I learned:
Bad clients meet a lot of contractors-because no one will work for them again. Good customers usually know one contractor because they'll always work together.I was advised, get a contract, get it all out in writing..... That's always wise, but real chiselers are always working it. Sometimes it helps to let a potential client know up front what you expect-even if you fear it might scare away business. If you have to beg for the job you might wind up begging for your check at the end.
After I had 'officially' retired from contracting I got a call to look at an old balloon framed house. I wanted to look at the house so I went. A beam was sagging in the living room. The 1x wall’s were bowing out (‘they don’t build them like they used to! Thank God) and the second floor was sagging on that side, lots of little stuff. I got my look and the homeowner (a great guy btw not a chiseler) asked How much?
I didn’t want the job, so I just shrugged. I don’t know. I can’t know until I find out what that beam is supposed to be doing. And it you jack up the sag and put in some framing, something else is going to shift and that’ll have to get fixed. Anybody else look at this?
Yes a couple of contractors.
What did they say?
One guy said about $5k.
Well that’s a start.
Finally I quoted an hourly rate, told him that I and anybody else would have to get paid every Thursday-so we can go to the bank on Friday. I just kept it up-after all I didn’t want the job, And you have to keep track of the job, anything you don’t like you let me know within 24 hours or its not my problem. Blah blah blah. He should have thrown me out.
A week later he calls. You want ME? How many contractors did you talk to?
14.
And you want ME?
You were the only one who sounded like he knew what was going on.
So I had to do the job. Came in about $35k he and his wife were very happy.
My point is, if you know what you’re doing—show your confidence up front. Hand the client a contract, or, if it’s a small job, just a letter stating what your conditions are. Underline that any changes are extra, any delays caused by unavailability of fancy light fixtures are extra, any time you spend collecting from the guy is extra (I like to say, this is my profession I love it and sometimes do it for free for charities and family, I don’t like collecting from deadbeats-so I make sure I get paid for that.)
Then when you’re on the job, stop swaggering, do great work, cut some slack on the bill-if it grows larger than the estimate-and point this out. But leave in a line saying if payment isn’t received in full in 10 days all discounts are void and they owe the whole amount.
You won’t scare away any good people, but you will scare away deadbeats. You don’t need THIS job, you just need honest work for honest people. Deadbeats can smell desperation and they will whine about how they are suffering but they don’t care if you and your family starve.
And if you’re young you need to hear this: If someone lies to you and you continue working with them, then the next time they lie to you—there will be a next time—the thing that will make you the angriest is that you saw it coming.
and this has what to do with Isa's thread? For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Hey all
its just keeps getting better and better
looks like we are heading for court
so me and the owner of the electrical company walke through the job site
it was one of those days when you wish you had not said anything
we found 8 more plugs and three more light openings that the electrician ( employee) misssed in his final count
so now , get this, the price goes up
Im just a small fry in Oregon, the owner is moving up from her house that overlooks the bay in san Fran
probablly selling 1200 sq feet and buying this biggin and still has a profit
and she now has her attorney wanting my attorneys # or so siad the ansering machine
does life stink
well kind of
in the mean time have to keep going
start a new house in 2 weeks, not enough profit to cover this one, and a low budget additin in july
so Im booked for months, and for that I shoudl be thankfull
I might not be rich
but I will not be broke
and I will be working
oh yeah, have a house to frame for habitat
sun is shining,
my son called lat night Im gonna be a grand dad........ again
my chevy still starts
my dog wags her tail when I come home
I have a canoe looking at me , saying lets go fishin
got to look at the good and positive
promise keepers is registering
fish are biting
gas prices,,,,,, nah they still suck.....that doesnt help
otherwise
what is the saying......... frick em if they cant take a joke
or
dont go away mad, just go away
if it wasnt for that.........Ill just die
Edited 4/19/2005 9:59 pm ET by Isamemon
Sorry to hear. Now may be the time to get into a defensive posture. If it's going south, you might take the position that this was a side deal with the electrician and the HO and get out of the middle altogether. If there's no way that this is going to end peacefully, then there's no benefit to you standing between the two when the shooting starts.
Wish I could do the telephone call for you.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
>>you might take the position that this was a side deal with the electrician and the HO and get out of the middle altogether<<
Seems to me that's exactly what he should do.
And the quicker the better.
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?It's a small revolver and any five cards."
Hope your electrician has his end well document, doubt he does! Don't think he has a strong case. I would 86 his punk a$$ just on princple.
$9k in extras without strong paper work, I wish him all the luck he's going to need it!
Willn, thanks for that beautiful post.
You basically outlined how I've done cost plus contract in the past. I didnt' do a lot of them, but when the conditions are right, they make sense and the buyers will understand.
In your little story, if you were pressed up against the wall to deliver a firm bid, you'd probably offer up a 100k number or maybe 200k. If you are allowed to do it by the hour, the number comes in at 35k. They save 65k!
I used to sell cost plus deals on the savings. Insted of focusing on the hourly rate, I simply focus on the worst case scenario and tell them I'm not going to be the one at risk.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Can you step back and let the owner and Ele. fight it out amoung themselves?
Seems like you should be able to since they left you out to start with.
It seems that the owner owes since he authorized the work but the ele should be collecting directly from him since the ele didn't involve you from the start.
Good luck!
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?
It's a small revolver and any five cards."