Do most GC charge for estimates? I dont charge. I give alot of estimates
and most are a waste of time. I dont mind doing it…but I talk to the customer for over an hour giving them ideas,etc. Just today I met with a couple who want a Master bedroom,Master Bath and a basement below.
They told me the other contractors never talked about alot of the details involved. Someone told them that he could turn there existing
bathroom into a bathroom/laundry room. They were to remove the tub,install a small shower,move the toilet,put in a smaller vanity. I
told them that I didnt think the inspector would alow the small shower.
I think there is code about the shower base size….anyway Im off subject..sorry.
Rob Teed
Dream Builders
Haslett,Mi
517-648-0628
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man I feel ya. Im about to start 2 additions in a week or so, waiting on the foundation guy to finish so I can get going, and someone called me about adding a small porch to the front of their house. I figured I had the time so I quoted them a very fair price, wife says ok and tells me we'll get together tomorrow night when her husband is home to go over a sketch. I call them the next day before going and talk to him, he has me on the phone for 20 minutes explaining what he wants, even gives me the address to someones house local saying he wanted something similar, only to end the conversation saying he cant afford it now, he gotta save some more money. I was cool with that, what else can you do, but got me thinking about maybe charging something small like $25 for something like that. But, free estimates seems like the way it is.
You guys are about a week (or 2) late and a dollar...........
Do an advance search for words like what you are looking for in the bus folder.
Just came off of some real good discussions recently.
Proposals, paid proposals, bid, paid for bids. charging for estimate, etc, etc.......
Good luck,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
On my First set of Business cards were the words " FREE ESTIMATES".
But, they weren't really. If you tally up all the hours spent on estimates for jobs not done ( By any one, Tire kicker/can we really afford it types) I suspect it cost me about $5,000 the first year.
Won't happen again.
rob .. you posted this in the wrong folder.. check the business folder..
click on and look at this link
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=47320.1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No such thing as "free est."--at least not to the person who buys the job from you---they are only free to those who just shop and never buy- Do you not roll your time into overhead? Does the newest client pay overhead? then they are paying for someone elses "free est." Nuff said--Mike
We've been charging for estimates for about 5-6 years now, we deduct the cost from the job cost if they hire us, has really weeded out most of the people just fishing for prices, no more wasted time, and we end up doing about 90% of the jobs.
SUGARLOAF WOODWORKING
Architectural Woodworking & Quality Restoration of Older Homes
"Anything is Possible"
What is your average charge for you estimates Woodwolf?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
My average charge is somewhere between 3-500.00 depending on the complexity of the job (we specialize in renovating older houses) and it includes itemized costs, we usually get the job because of the clear specs. and detail we provide. It is credited towards the job cost if we are selected for the job. If its a full work up with drawings it has been as much as $1200.00, depends on wether we do the "designing " too. If it is a job that requires extensive design services I refer it to one of several Architects we use and do not estimate it until we get drawings from them.SUGARLOAF WOODWORKING
Architectural Woodworking & Quality Restoration of Older Homes
"Anything is Possible"
I just had a plumber try that on me.
The next one didn't try...
Guess who got the work?
Not sure how big your job was, but when a contractor has to put 5 hours into a bid for a client it can be a big hit when they decide that all the contractors are to much and they will try to do it themselves or hire the guy down the street with no tools.
Actually thats just one of my numbers, some of these contractors have a lot more invested then that.
When you add up all the bids you dont get, that is a ton of time that others have taken from you. Then everyone complains about rates?
-zen
probably the cheaper plumber who needed the work because he has no reputation to build on.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In this case, apparently the opposite.
I called the first guy first cause he did work for me in the past. Not the cheapest, but good.
But after decribing my need (and not as a stupid homeowner, but with specific detail) the secretary told me of this $50 quote fee. When reminded of the thousand dollar job they just did a year earlier, they decided to waive the fee. But then proceeded to fall down on performance by never coming to do the job.
Price was never an issue. But I got the impression they were morphing the business into selling quotes rather than plumbing services.
But I suppose I should have been more clear in my earlier post...
"Price was never an issue."
Yes it was!
"When reminded of the thousand dollar job they just did a year earlier"
Pretty much right then ....
"But then proceeded to fall down on performance by never coming to do the job."
They didn't fall down ... you got bumped down the list behind paying customers they have no problem following the rules.
U can always insist on a bargain ... just don't complain after you get bargain rate service.
by the way ... I love that logic.
"When reminded of the thousand dollar job they just did a year earlier"
Just love when people try to pull it on me. Like that earns ya something special.
Hey ... Thanks Big Spender! Don't know how I got thru life without ya!
Lucky for me ... U did me a big favor ...
why all I did was quote a price and give you the best job you ever got ...
but lucky me ... I "got" to work for "you" ...
and now ... if I drop my standard rates ... I get to do it again!
Next time is it gonna cost $100 to get the chance?
Not that the idea bugs me or anything ...
sensitive ... not me?
think about it ... $50 and ya lost a good plumber ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, normally you have a decent read on issues.
But in this case, someone must of turned your monitor upside down cause you've interpreted this butt side up!
Don't know where you got the points you're talking about. They never happened in this case.
After the fact, I found the plumber in question was fired for lack of performance. The business changed it's name cause they were changing their focus from all plumbing services to just water heaters.
Tell me, when a sub falls down on your expectations, how long do you beat yourself up for mishandling the situation? Apparently not long enough...
jeff's read was what he though of the reality of the situation..
when you called.. they told you of the $50 fee..
you responded negatively..
they reacted negatively..
perhaps there was a cause & effect.. perhaps not
maybe........ if you had said , ok..... when can you be here ?.. the outcome might have been different.. then you could remind them of your previous relationship...
me..
i do everything in my power to make it easy for my subs to decide that today is my turn in the barrel instead of someone else
you do remember the story about the brain surgeon and the plumber , don't you ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The brain surgeon and plumber, huh?
You know, that is an excellent analogy to prove the point I'm attempting to get across.
What's the difference between the two?
Besides the usual lines of drivel, they differ by whom they are working for.
The brain surgeon is working for his CLIENT. The plumber is working for HIMSELF.
In fact, one could argue that's true for all construction trades. You guys are in this business because it's the best source of income for you to do the things you personally enjoy.
Perhaps the same could be said about the surgeon, but he wouldn't have gotten thru the selection process unless he demonstrated a compassion and concern for his patients well being.
As many of you are aware, I'm a Certified Financial Planner working for a major brokerage firm. I chose to become this CFP even though the process specifically included ethics issues emphasizing the primary directive is "What's in the client's best interest."
Everything I recommend to a client HAS to be based upon his best interest and needs. It is required that I search for the best performing, lowest cost, least risky investment for the client.
Then, everything I recommend within this job is based on the come. If my presentation and recommendation doesn't make the client satisfied that it will solve their problem, they can walk without obligation. Sure it sucks. But it makes me better prepared for the next one. Failure is what makes us improve.
And it's happened too many times to me.
But the prices of the service have been formulated for the expectation of those occurances.
I hold the opinion that if I'm going to work with someone, we need to share the same ethic. If I expect to be treated with respect, I damn well better treat that person with respect. By extension, when I come across a tradesman that says he has to charge me for a quote, I recognize that he's not working for me. He is making the issue of the importance of his time without the corresponding concern about mine.
My opinion of these business practices of which we quibble are that they fall in one of two catagories:
A. A very successful and talented artist that creates something unusual and highly coveted. In such cases, he has to control his market to balance his capacity to supply the demand. Perhaps this may justify why you are able to get your quote fees.
B. A very disorganized business unaware of their costs, unable to perform the expectations of the marketplace, or simply mismanaged.
Let's remember about what trade I'm speaking - a plumber!
Now I've had the pleasure of employing some very talented and truely exceptional plumbers. There are times that their work can come within the definition of art, but come on, I'm speaking of a freakin' floor drain. The only art coming with that is to place it at the lowest point in the floor.
On the other hand, I've happily paid a $5000 consultant fee when I wanted to build in a new state to which I had just moved. That fee was simply to help me understand all factors involved with my plan. And the result was not to build at all. But I was happy to write the check because the knowledge gained was worth many times it's cost.
I can understand why some trades feel it's necessary to charge considering the compentency of the average homeowner. But I'm not the average homeowner. And when treated as such, I get offended. A good businessman can make that determination over the phone. When he puts some young girl on the phone making interpretations and the arrangements for his workmen, then shame on him for putting an incompentent in a position of importance. He deserves the consequences. (Remember how I mentioned he was changing his business focus as well as the business's name? Now why would he do that?)
If you guys are able to get your quote fees out of a prospect, good for you. But we can now assume that I will never be one of your clients nor will you ever be one of mine.
"As many of you are aware, I'm a Certified Financial Planner working for a major brokerage firm."
Ok .. so first off .. yer a cheap bastard that bases everything in life on money .. namely "your money" ... my wife works for a financial planner ... in an office ... and I cast that wide net fully believing every word. (much as U do with the opinions of plumbers)
"Let's remember about what trade I'm speaking - a plumber! "
With that attitude are we still even trying to figure out why ya can't find one?
"Now I've had the pleasure of employing some very talented and truely exceptional plumbers. "
So ... I see you don't simply "hire" a tradesman ... U "employ" them! U offer a retirement plan too?
"But I'm not the average homeowner. And when treated as such, I get offended.'
Oh no .... yer special .... just like everyone else! All my customers have money and big fancy houses ... just what makes U so special? btw .... a busy GC keeps a plumbing company way more busy than any 10 "above average homeowners" ...
"But we can now assume that I will never be one of your clients nor will you ever be one of mine.'
Ya lost me on that one ... I can see how I'd never wanna work for you ....
but why would I never be "one of mine"?
btw .... U do all that work for the customer for free, right?
No charging for trades and transactions ... especially for your "special" customers .. U know .. those that aren't your "average investors" ....
What's the deal ... after 10 years or $500K all your services are free ... or at least discounted ... customer loyality ... that sorta thing?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
stone.. so ... you haven't heard the one about the brain surgeon & the plumber
do you work on a fee basis or a percentage basis ?
one of the things you don't seem to realize..
it's easier to book a brain surgeon than it is to book a plumber..
plumbers start their day performing triage..
when they wake up ...their answering machine is clogged with calls:
all of the ones i know do the same thing ( the "good" ones )..
1st up: no water, or home damaging leaks, or no heat in winter
2d up: work in progress, contractual
3d up : everyone else who calls..
most plumbers have way more in each category than they can handle
so... if you want to make it into the 2d category.. you have to get thru their screening process.... you didn't make the cut
now ... another little ditty.. which may .. or may not prove both our points..
the fastest growing business in RI right now is a 2d generation company called Gem Plumbers.. ( which used to be called Anthony Gemma Plumbing )...
they are hiring all of the master plumbers who no longer want to deal with the business.. and they have a huge stable of apprentices ..
they will answer your call.... but .. i ain't calling them... i will not get the hand holding i need from my plumber.. and .. that "johnny -on-the-spot " is gonna cost the consumer dearly... it takes a lot of money to set up a response company like that.. so their fees are amazing
BTW..
the surgeon says .." but my fees are not as high as yours.... and the plumber responds... yeah, i know........ when i used to be a brain surgeon, my fees weren't this high either "
anyways , stone..... as in anything else.. it's all supply & demand... think about that the next time you call a plumber.. i certainly do
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well, Jeff and Mike,
You've described quite well your feelings about a broke d*ck plumber that his employer found necessary to fire.
I'll be sure to pass the word on that you's guys would love to work with such a competent craftsman. What's your phone numbers so I can pass them on to him?
Too bad, Jeff, that you've chosen to discriminate against ALL financial planners (I note that your "big time" financial planner was never identified as a CFP). Just because your wife didn't have the ability to differentiate between the different types, you've lost perspective. You'll note that I never responded to your posts about the issue when you made them a coupla of years ago. Frankly, I have a very low opinion about the type of guys you described she's working for. They have no supervision, skirt regulations, and take advantage of clients. They work for THEMSELVES. And they commonly take advantage of their employees. How's your wife liking this job today?
Stay with your own career. You know NOTHING about me or how I run mine. But I will say after 20 years in this business, I have no blemishes on my record - no complaints, no nothing. Can you say the same?
And Mike, you're right about supply and demand. The new plumber came by last night and set me up with what I was looking for. Got it done in two hours and was out the door with his $600 check (which by the way was more than he asked for - just as I ALWAYS do for tradesmen that provide the service I'm looking for).
Supply and demand work both ways. Right now, you got plenty of demand. When interest rates climb in a couple of years and Jeff and others are whining about business being slow, think of me. I'll most likely be on another project keeping my friends busy. The pr*cks I've met along the way will most likely be asking their wives if they know of any work.
I don't need to fool with someone playing games (similar to Jeff's wild tangent he's gone off on!). There are many others out there looking for me as a client.
Why do I say they're looking for me? The guys I've hired in the past have primarily become good friends. They get paid immediately, usually for more than they ask, lunch on Fridays (and Saturdays if they work - ribs are well received) and many times an extra tool is given to them upon the projects completion. (One guy who particularly did an impressive job for me walked away with a radial arm saw, 10" miter saw, cement mixer, as well as a Hitichi 44 lb demo hammer.)
There's always the ones out there working for THEMSELVES that felt it necessary to cook the golden goose. (Such as the guy who charged me $1600 for one 15 x 20 room to be orange peeled textured - he got his check on the spot and spent the next month trying to get more work out of me. The other workers on the job brought his performance to my attention, as well as this guys out and out rudeness to the rest of the staff.) They were never invited back.
But I still get calls from guys who worked for me 7 to 8 years ago 1000 miles away asking, "You got anything for me?" They've learned when things get slow, they can come back and I'll find something for them. I'll make up something to keep a friend going.
Maybe this is an extreme, but I had a great roofer do me a very complicated job that no one else would touch. We did our deal and he got his money. People would stop on the street and come up to the door to tell me what an impressive job it was. However, 3 months later he comes back as a friend and tells me he lost his license because of the big roofing supplier filing a lien on his license with the state. He needed 15 grand to get things clear. I helped him negotiate with the supplier, getting the bill down to 5 G's. Then I had him bring our contract out and redid it with a 5 grand price increase. I then paid him the 5 and he got his license out of hock.
Stupid? Maybe. But he's out there working again, making his customers happy. The 5 didn't matter in the bigger picture. But I helped a friend out who did me a great job. And I'd do it again for him.
Mike, I'm sure that you understand that a business that finds it necessary to change it's name, business focus, as well as not able to keep their staff has some serious internal problems. Do you work with such guys changing their spots?
Sorry if you don't like it, but as I said, I interpret the request for a paid price quote as a sign of the business having other problems it can't deal with.
gee, stone... i guess i won't be working for you then....
rats Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nothing I like better than a client with a paternalistic attitude who considers himself in every way my superior. At least this fellow has had the decency to prequalify himself -- at length.
ya know , steel... i usually don't get to work for those guys... somehow or other we don't seem to jibe
have done some fine work when all three were on the same team... architect, owner, & builder...
but somehow, i don't think my input would be valued working for stone
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Man, I read stone's post, took a quick break to put on my flame retardent underwear/safety goggles/fireproof hood and come back to read some more. I thought for sure the flames were gonna be so big and so hot that I'd need all the extra protection that I could get on....
And then ya'll hold out a Bic lighter... what is this? No real flaming going on anymore? (heh heh)
Ya'll ain't no fun....
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
yeah, yeah, it's all a big f*ckin joke with you , ain't it ?
hah, hah,hah.. i'll see what i can do .... mebbe i get off my meds, i can be more entertainingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think we've all mellowed a bit in our old age. Maybe it's the Metamucil or something, I don't know.
I was just envisioning in my mind some of the old flamers that would have taken the guy apart. Everyone seems so mild mannered now. It's a bit easier now to get the point across without incinerating everyone, and everything in sight. Keeps the blood pressure a bit lower too.
Kind of a good thing really... raising of the blood pressure and heart attacks kinda go hand in hand for us old folks.
Just keep thinking Mellow.... Mellow.... Mellow.... Meowwwww... Meowwww.... (oops, sorry about that - cat got in) Mellow.... Mellow....Mellow.... (medication helps a lot too, especially with a beer or two - heh heh)James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
you musta missed the polictical threads....
those posters are still trying to catch their breath and nurse bruised fingers back to usability...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Let's sum up the situation:
I'm supposed to willingly pay someone a quote fee so they can tell me they don't perform the service I specifically asked for in the first call?
As a famous man once said: "Bite Me!"
If it was a design build or something involving time, etc. for information I was unable to provide or didn't have the time to research myself, I'll be the first to pull out the checkbook. And I've already given examples of such.
Now if I'm such a d*ck, why did I have no problem with the ceement guy coming tomorrow?
I called him and said I need a pad poured on top of my existing garage floor to serve as a curb. Can he stop by and see if this is the type of job he does?
He comes out the next day and says, yeah, I can do it. Any special details?
I told him I'll have my carps do the forms and prepare the rods for him. I ask for a nice color and his finest finishing techniques for the application. He says great, and I'll come back to be sure everything is OK the day before the pour.
So he comes by today and says he's never seen forms put together so sweet. So after 45 years of ceement experience, my carps passed on a new trick to him today.
Like Mike says, when you have open communication with everyone, the jobs become nice.
Hmmm, I just got a call from him. Says his bid was $300 too high and he'll be here first thing in the AM.
Nice guy. I figure I'll split the difference with him.
One last question,
Do I owe you's guys some form of "education fee" for all of your valuable time enlightening me on this subject?
Edited 1/26/2005 10:25 pm ET by stonefever
hey, you're awful defensive for someone who ain't a d!ck ?
can you just give it up ?
really.... i won't try to talk you into hiring me
hah, hah, hah
'sides you're upsetting the kids.. look at how agitated james is Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Frankly, I have a very low opinion about the type of guys you described she's working for. They have no supervision, skirt regulations, and take advantage of clients. They work for THEMSELVES. And they commonly take advantage of their employees. How's your wife liking this job today?'
Uhh ... he's a vice president at PNC Bank.
far from ... well ... everything ya just said.
That ... and she's his marketing chick ....
U got a marketing chick?
what's her salery/commission package?
U couldn't be more off base if ya tried ....
seriously ... imagine that ... a broker with a marketing staff? Techinically she's a PNC Bank employee ... except her giver her "free will" ... she can ignore the bank "employee" policy at will .. and often!
He also has a full time broker assistant ... or what ever you call the lady that actually knows how the paperwork works ...assistant broker, maybe? Don't know.
U might have one of them ...
But trust me ... yer way too angry to be able to afford the cash this dude is kicking out monthly ....
Very much like the rest of the office that hates him and his team!
Ahh ha ha ha ...
btw ... the dude could be a cfp ... or a bmc ... I dunno ... don't care.
I do know he's a VP ... of PNC ... that's alot of initials ... too many for me.
"But I will say after 20 years in this business, I have no blemishes on my record - no complaints, no nothing. Can you say the same?"
Just like the guy that told me once ... after 20 years .. I never had a call back on one door I hung ...
to wit I replied ... so ... Ya only hung that one?
Ahh ha ha ha ...
No complains my a$$ ... ya got one now!
so wadda ya say ... Harry Dent ... right or wrong?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
>>But I'm not the average homeowner
Hmmmn? That's what all the homeowners say. It's pretty average to hear that.
>>doesn't make the client satisfied that it will solve their problem, they can walk without obligation
So you don't charge you prospective clients for your proposals/"estimates." bt you do roll those costs into your overhead, so the clients that do accept your proposals pay for the unsuccessful attempts.
Charging for quotes means that everybody pays for what they get and only what they get.
$50 probably doesn't cover 1/4 of their 'quote' based overhead per job, however it does cut it way down at the end of the year simply by eliminating all the Looky Lou's and that means that all their clients are paying less.
And just like you, no fee, no obligation. But, if they decided not to take you on as a client, ethically, they should have said something. If they just shuffled you to the end of the list, they still shoud have said something out of courtesy.
You, my friend, got what you paid for, just not what you wheeled and dealed your way out of paying for.
SamT
20 years and ya don't have a contractor/client you can trust to handle these things?
Odd ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
just had an example of "charging for an estimate"
lady called up this morning.. has a hundred year old house..
with exposed beams.. wants to insulate between the beams ( probably with sheet foam ).. then apply drywall/ skim-coat plaster
it'd be done say two rooms at a time.. moving the furniture in and out...
so.. i said , it's just what we do.. when do you want to do the work? "early spring"
well, we're booked.. how about mid-summer ?
ok..
i'll come over and meet with you and your husband tomorrow , look at the work, and tell you how much i will charge to prepare a Proposal. If you like my Proposal , we can schedule the work.
there will be no charge for our first meeting.
when could the three of us meet ? " tomorrow ?".. fine, how about 9 am?
"great"
calls back an hour later.. "my husband doesn't want to waste your time, adn he won't pay for a Proposal."
Ok, thank you for calling.
point is... maybe i'd get the job, maybe i wouldn't... but either way , i'm going to spend say 5 hours minimum , putting a price on something...
now .. i won't be using up two hours on that call..
so... there's an example of "charging for an estimate"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't know what plumbers charge in your area...But if you think the company is trying to "sell quotes rather than plumbing services" I would compare the quote charge to a trip charge. Most plumbers around here get $50 just to show up plus their $70-100 hourly rate.
Jon Blakemore
Some contractors are in the position where they can charge for estimates, others are not. It all depends on the market conditions in your locality. If a contractor tried charging for estimates in my area they would go out of business, no question.
John
True it does depend on the economics of your location. We had found ourselves in the position of being overrun with jobs and did not have the time to estimate them all so charging helped make the requests for estimates more manageable also we still do a large percentage of our work what I would call budgeted T&M.SUGARLOAF WOODWORKING
Architectural Woodworking & Quality Restoration of Older Homes
"Anything is Possible"
we charge for Proposals.... since we are giving a Fixed Fee Contract Proposal.. the word "estimate" only muddies the water
our fees have been as low as $200 and as high as $3000
last week i took fees of $200, $500, & $400..... none of them will be credited to the cost of the job... if i did that ..i'd have to add it in on oine end and take it out the other
design fees are not included.. we give a seterate Proposal for design.. which will also INCLUDE a fixed fee Proposal at e the end of the design phase
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
last week i took fees of $200, $500, & $400..... none of them will be credited to the cost of the job...
This is why you continue to be one of my all-time favorite builders...
"last week i took fees of $200, $500, & $400..... "
didn't know there were that many Steeler fans up there?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
" none of them will be credited to the cost of the job."I don't know why I would want to give it back after I HAD ALREADY EARNED IT
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!