I’m remodeling a house that was previously remodeled 25 years ago after partial fire damage. I’m doing a complete remodel and have gutted the entire interior. After removing the wallcoverings, I found several charred/scorched studs and plates throughout the living room, kitchen, and hallway. The damage to them is minimal and does not appear to have affected the structural integrity of the framing.
My wife inherited this house when her parents passed away and we’ll be moving in when the project is completed (In other words, I’ll be literally living with the results of this renovation).
Replacing every “blemished” stud would be both costly and time consuming, so I’m inclined to leave well enough alone if it meets the specs. I plan to have the local codes inspector come out this week for a formal opinion on the matter. In the meantime, I’d appreciate your thoughts on this. If the inspector says the wood is ok by him, should I let it stay..or replace it anyway?
Thanks,
Michael
Darlington, SC
Replies
Michael
I've had one experience with something similar, hopefully others will chime in here with their experiences.
The one time that I was doing a remodel on a house that had caught fire we had to remove any wood that had charring, or if the wood was still structuraly sound we had to remove the charring itself.
We were able to sand blast any charring off and that satisfied the BI. We were careful to not blast the hell out of the wood and the BI came back and gave us the thumbs up!
Doug
In my area, the rule of thumb is 1/10 of the wood thickness can be cgarred - e.g., 1/4" on a 2x4
Removing the charred wood and sealing with a stain blocking primer is a good idea.
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
Minor point: conventional wisdom is that "the smell never goes away."FWIW, after several decades it seems to go away - I've inspected a number of older homes with charred rafters and no discernable smell.But who wants to wait several decades?
"Law reflects but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society. The values of a reasonably just society will reflect themselves in a reasonably just law. The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb. The values of an unjust society will reflect themselves in an unjust law. The worse the society, the more law there will be, In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed." Grant Gilmore "Ages of American Law"
IF it is not touched or disturbed again, there is minimal smell, but as soon as it is disturbed, the stench is released. I've worked on several where the charring was so extremely old that at first there seemed no smell. These were suprises encountered in remo work where probably nobody ever knew there had been a smolderer going on that eventually dioed on its own. Usually in walls nbear chimneys , attics same, or under old wood stoves, in the floor.As soon as we dug into it, the stench comes up. It is a curious thing, given that charcoal is used to clean water and air.
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The answer is, it depends. Is it in a bearing wall? What are you calling scorched/charred? How prolonged was the fire? Can you still smell anything?
Are they really charred or just discolored? lumber that is discolored by smoke damage but not charred is usually considered acceptable after it has been cleaned. Some will allow up to 1/16" to a 1/4" char depth on the assumption that it will not reduce the strength depending on other factors.
Most times in walls they are just easier to replace, but if they are in floors or ceilings or other hard to replace spots and the char is deemed acceptable, we will clean out the char clean with a wirebrush and smoke sponge, spray with a ulv solution let that dry and spray with bin.
Seeing as yours has set for 25 yrs and assuming there is no smell and the "char" is within acceptable limits I would probably still at least bin, especially if we are talking discoloration and not actual char. Again, sometimes interior walls are just faster to replace.
Like I said, it depends. <g>
Breaktime disclaimer: If these are load bearing walls you may need an engineer and can not use my words in a court of law
Edited 12/31/2006 11:23 am by BarryE
I've been involved in 2 fire jobs.
On both of them, we replaced the badly damaged wood, but had the mildly charred lumber sprayed with a silvery sealant. If you don't seal the char, you WILL be smelling smoke, especially on damp days.
Unfortunately, it's been over 20 years, so I don't remember the name of the product.
The wood is more than discolored in some locations; they're actually burnt somewhat. This damge can be found on both interior and exterior walls. The exterior walls are particularly troublesome because this house has brick veneer siding that will have masonry straps attached to the outside of the studs.
Most of the replies thus far have indicated that up to a 1/4" of damage is acceptable and I haven't seen any wood yet that has exceeded that limit. However, the burnt smell is still present even after 25 years. But I'm hoping I can treat the wood with something that will eliminate that. The smell is actually strongest in the attic, where there was no fire but a lot of smoke. I have no idea whether I'll ever find a way to get rid of that odor.
Does anyone here happen to know what the IRC manual says about using charred lumber? I can certainly understand why some structural members are important enough to mandate replacement, but it seems to me that even when damage exceeds the limit, that a sister stud (where needed) would suffice for most wall studs, even in load bearing walls. Nevertheless, I'm not a contractor or engineer. Just a hard core DIY'er.
Thanks for the feedback you've been providing.
Michael
I used to do some insurance reno 25 years ago. So this info maybe dated.Back then, the standard was to remove and replace anything with charring more than 1/4" deep.You will never get rid of the smell totally, though it can be sealed and hidden so the house smells better than one with a cigarette smoker living in it. For those of us who don't smoke, the smell always reeks. For tobacco addicts, the smell doesn't exist.The best way to seal the smell into framing lumber is to use Kilz, IMO, but that can mean alot of spraying.
Where surface charring leaves alligatoring fractures into the wood, it can take even more, leaving you with a judgement call whether to replace, scrape and paint over, or ignore.You can also design your insulation/ventilation package so as to seal in the smells or seal them out of the house.The first would mean using a spray urethene foam to seal them in while insulating. The latter would involve use of a plastic VB on the inside of the studs top keep air from carrying that smell to the interior. since you have not filled in your profile, I don't know where you are and can't comment on the appropriatness of either for you.
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<I used to do some insurance reno 25 years ago. So this info maybe dated.>Just a little there's been a few advancements in 25 yrs. <g>
Barry E-Remodeler
What advancements?
I re-read your first reply and see no difference in the substance of what either of us said. No charring more tha 1/4", clean and seal. You use bin and I use Kilz. What did I miss?
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There are some other steps there. But I don't know how much I can tell ya before I have to kill ya. <g> It's a tough marketI don't know how much is new, but there are many formulas that are used before BIN, thermofoggers and ozone scrubbers out there that are being used now.Half of our work comes from Ins. restoration and we have a "No Smell Guarantee" which we have yet to go back on. You bet we do everything possible during restoration to keep from going back.Also, we prefer BIN over Kilz because BIN is alcohol based.
Barry E-Remodeler
Ozone scrubbers, ehzounds new age!;)Be the proprietary dude!
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we do a bit of fire restoration...Ozone generators are the very first thing we throw into a house, the sooner the better...we let them run 24/7 if we aren't on site...they are a little overpowering during work hours so we turn them off during the day and run them all night.
regards
Markhttp://www.quittintime.com
Take this with a grain (or two) of salt. But last year I was researching on getting ride of cigarrte smoke smells.Most of what I found was on fire damage.But Bin's claims that they are better as it they will seal in one coat and Kilz can take two.Of course Kilzs is mute on that subject..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Shellac has traditionally been a better sealer than oil in these and other situations
Barry E-Remodeler
Theoreticly, that makes sense, becauise microscopicly, shellac lays down flakes of solids that scents would not pass through, in an evaporative manner, while oil "cures" to a film surface that eventually hardens and would be more permeable meanwhile.
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I'll stay mute on preference between the two then. I used Kilz 25 years ago and havene't done any comparatives myself on it. I don't even recal wghether bin was available back then.If I had a big job like this now, I'd research some more, even to looking at the SW recommended. SW is right on the forfront of the newest chemistry AFAIK. They are also the ones with the best sealer for calcimite too.
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Do you smell any smoke? Do you see any problems due to the charing? It's been 25 years, I'd leave well enough alone myself, unless there are poblems other than the looks of the studs. You may want to paint them with a odor blocking primer.
if you are a hard core diy.... then I guess you know which studs are still doing their job... if you want more work & expense rip em all out and replace em... i'm sure you can find someone to say thats the ONLY WAY.... i might sister a few if i saw the need... but other than that i wouldn't ask the BI squat... i do what i thought needed doing and be on my way... yes even if it was my house... more so if it was my house... I've torn down stuff i had no idea why it would even still be standing and had a hard time make'n it fall... so if yours is standing... not sag'n and things can go back to an acceptable finish... i'd say you are fine...
people love to tell others the "right way" which usually means "let me spend your money for you"
p
"i might sister a few if i saw the need... but other than that i wouldn't ask the BI squat"
Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately, permits are required here...along with the associated inspections. I want an offical okey-dokey from the codes guy before I rough in the electrical, etc.
Michael
i understand.... as far as the smell.... guys around here use a paint product from SW thats for that purpose.... ask a professional paint store chances are they will know... most i've seen is sprayed and dry fall
p
After the char is removed, Kilz is a good choice to white wash the lumber but you might want to try DRY-LOK. It' a basemeny weterproffer and thicker than KILZ.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much.