Slate-look, laminated tab shingle – not architectural. Trusses @ 16″oc. 5/8″ cdx fastened with Paslode 2-3/8 ring shank. Ice and water over entire deck. Installed in late September in upstate NY. What do you think? The ridges are so straight I thought the sheathing popped at joints but climbing around up there doesn’t reveal any such symptom. Roof bracket placement? I’m stumped. I built the house but did not lay the shingles – thought a crew could do a more efficient job than my crew of one! BTW, the rdiges were not visible after completion. I noticed them when the snow left and Spring warmth arrived.
Replies
I think that the angle of the sun accentuates this problem, but I have no idea what is causing it. I suggest you climb up and take a few shingles off at the site of one of the ridges. This will tell you if it is a problem with the underlayment or the sheathing.
BillD60,
It looks like it could be wrinkles in the felt underneath.
Fz
that's what it looks like to me too, but I've never seen itlike that under heavy archy shingles.They must have done a darn sloppy job of stretching the felt tight and used heavy 30#
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Did you lay the roof sheathing? Were the sheets butted tightly together or were they spaced apart slightly?
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
CAN't be teh butt joints in teh sheathing! The problme is EVERY STINKEN 16 inches!!
Ok means your work is for Free! Need some of that free labor here in California to compete with the high priced illegal imigrintants,can you do fence/gates, and doors?
Rick Nimms Simi valley,93065 Kalifornia 805-522-2130
Depends....how close are ya to Disneyland?
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
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Beware. RFID is coming.
It's obvious to me you have snakes sleeping under your shingles.=-)
Not being a roof guy but I have seen that very thing before. It was caused, as said above, by the felt being wrinkled underneath and the shingles laid over it thinking it would never show. DanT
The others have it right-felt not laid properly.
Some people who shingle don't realize how gritical it is to roll it flat and straight.
Teh shield can explain the bubbbles but not the symetrical verticle lines!
Is it like that on both sides of the roof?
Is that the southern exposure side?
Can u see the osb from below in the attic?
How long from time osb was laid and fire and ice installed?
Really be pertinent to know if its the shingles bulged or shingles and underlayment.
Call a factory rep. on both items.These guys see all kinds of stuff that people blame thier products on.
Any siimilar jobs around using same materials?
Something about the similar angle thing going on is very intriging.
Sorry..a lot of questions but way of getting alot info on table .
This little situation exists only on the south side - the other side is flawless and beautiful.
I can see the sheathing by climbing up into the trusses and I see no indication of raised sheathing.
Sheathing to Grace was no more than 10 days and pretty dry. The roofers who were "good guys" never mentioned any sheathing problems and I believe they would have.
Nobody around has used these shingles and Grace is used by most only aloong the bottom edge of the roof. This is a very rural area so not a lot of work like this is going on. Not many skilled, knowledgeable contractors either.
The similar angle thing is what stumps me. At this point I think I'll tear off the small section nearest the ridge and see what I find. I have a lot of time and, money goes without saying, in this project. I don't think I can live with the form regardless of the function.
Thanks.
"This little situation exists only on the south side - the other side is flawless and beautiful."
Does the other side get any sun at all? If it doesn't, I think your problem is with the I & W and the heat expanding some type of air bubbles. You don't have it but felt could never show through shingles like that unless it was a MAJOR Hack job, same with ripples in the I & W from laying it poorly.
Since you did not see the problem in the winter, when the snow was not there, the increased sun and temperature is what is causing the problem. The other side might not be getting as hot so you cannot see the problem.
If it is some bubbles in the I & W, you might be able to use some type of large roller and press them out. It wouldn't be fun on a roof but might be better than anything else
Good choice Bill...... it would also be a good idea to check and make sure baffles were put in the attic and that they are not blocked by insulation at the eves
Did anyone say if this roof is vented or not theres alot of posts here. Lets say you had no venting, from the top or the bottom. Increase the heat in the attic two or three times what outside might be. Normally Ice and water sheild is only first two rows or potential problem areas, on this roof...everywhere. IF it was hot enough could air push this stuff up. It has to go somewhere. Normally with tar paper there is an out. Maybee the roof isn't breathing properly.
Overdriven ring shanks, sheets butted tight, moisture in house trying to escape from paint, drywall compound, curing concrete from foundation and slabs, and the seams finally swelled.
No way is that felt. Felt butts are 3'.....that's 4'....hey, the same as plywood, and even centered over the rafters I bet. Keith
I'm not a builder, so please excuse my ignorance. Wouldn't the moisture just go out the holes in the walls where there are no windows or doors yet? The picture looks to me like moisture has ample opportunities to escape (and enter) before forcing its way up through the roof.
The op said nothing of felt on his roof
<Ice and water over entire deck.>
You're right!I just re-read the first post,Grace over the whole roof.
Must be they didn't roll it out perfectly flat then-the ridges are not uniform to coincide with lifted sheathing.
Great ideas re: Grace wrinkled. Hadn't thought of that. What's the fix if that's the deal? I'm not a roof guy either. Not sure how to go about removing and replacing shingles in the center of the roof. Anybody want a job?!
It's a pain in the a## type of job.
Remove shingles in the affected areas,cut out Grace humps,patch over those cut out areas-then reshingle.A lot of effort for so little gain.
My knowledge ends where shingle replacement requires getting new shingles under existing shingles for the right over lap and coverage. Suggestions or articles about this process?
Lift the lower edge of the shingle to expose nails on the course below. Use a flat bar and hammer to dig out the nails. You will have to do this with the course above the one you want to take out. This is an irritating procedure but not difficult. You will spend more time getting to the bad area and staging it.
You need to do this in cool weather so that the tar is not too sticky. When renailing the shingles(or replacements), it helps if it is a little warmer so that the bottoms of the shingles can be bent up to let you nail.
If this was my own house I would probably leave it alone.
What is the I & W, Grace? Grace does not have the granulars.
One thing I've seen with grace I & W is that you can sometime lay it and get air pockets. You have a lot of grooves for something like that.
You're right. The I & W is not Grace by name.
Ice and water over entire deck. Installed in late September in upstate NY
Did the Ice & water shield have a granular surface?
Could be that since that shield, and the shingles were installed when cold, they are not able to move against each other to allow for expansion due to warmer wether now.
Ice and water is granular.
say what!!!never seeen that kind
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here in my little corner of the Catskill Mountains, the granular is all I've ever seen. It is a tight grain not like shingles but it certainly isn't smooth.
Granular is all I've even seen in IL, SC, and now VA. The only time I've seen smooth I&W shield is when it's in the form of window & door flashing.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am going to offer a different possibility. I would check to see if the roofer butted adjacent seems of shingles to one another and did not leave the proper gap. I would also check the nailing schedule the roofer used to attach the shingles to the roof.
mcfr: The seems between shingles would have been staggered. The lines on the roof are solid verticle lines over every stinken rafter.
Clearly , from all the posts, this is a mystery to EVERYONE!
maybe the nails in the decking popped, created an air pocket, and the heat from the sun expnaded the air in the pocket...
i guess you need to dig into it and see what is really happening.
Not always. You can get smooth, as well. Maybe not at your supplier, but it's out there.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Sorry, was away for a week.
Have read most of the posts here, and still feel that the culprit it a combination of circumstances.
Gaanular ice & water shield is not as "stretchy" as the smooth (neither in expansion or contraction). I would not advise it's use for the entire roof.
Even if you have installed the sheathing w/ the proper spacing at the butt joints, the I&W shield spans over this "gap". When the roof is heated up, the plywood expands to close the gaps, and the I&W shield also expands at this location, but the ice & water shield cannot "slide" since it is stuck fast to the ply, and the granular surface is also sticking to the bottom of the shingles. The only place for the ice & water shield to go is upwards, in a wrinkle. This wrinkle will appear at all butt joints of the ply, and might also appear at rafter locations (due to the temperature differential....same as frost patterns in the winter) since the added thermal mass of the rafter creates a different temperature than the mid span area.
Sorry to say.....but if this is indeed your problem, tough fix. You will have to remove the shingles, cut out the wrinkles, and cut out additional "expansion slots" for the I&W shield, then tar paper over the entire roof, and re-shingle. Without some kind of fix, you shingle life will suffer.
Just my 2 cents, good luck.
I would 2nd this notion
WOW!!! Looks bad.
You have two problems. The verticle lines and the BUBBLES!!!!
As for the verticle lines, is there frost on the roof? Sometimes I see lines over a few of my rafter lines in the cold spring, but they don't last long.
Bubbles? WOW!! Blister ice shield? Shield put down on a dirty deck and it did not seal tight?
I'm wondering what the roofer did with all the shingle wrappers!?
WOW! That hurts! I picked up all their piles... shudder to think they miseed making a pile that should have been picked up. What I need is some younger buck to run around on my 7/12 and fix this for me!
im thinking maverick is wonderin if your ruffer putthe wrappers under the shingleshence the lumps
I'm sorry if it hurts but theres something under those shingles that should'nt be there, the only way to know is a biopsy
and for what its worth, the chimney is'nt tall enough. cant tell from the picture if its just unfinished
i have one question to those suggesting its the I & W.
since that is run horizontally, how you the defect net symmetrical and straight ridges?
i think you are way off and a sheething or shingle defect is the root cause.
Were those shingles low grade (cheap)?
Exactly the opposite. Very high end. Certainteed, Slate look. Pricey.
Gents,
I am not a roofer but have laid a lot of asphalt shingles in my life.I think, looking at the lines that the I&W shield is bubbling up. The length of the bubble looks to be about the width of I&W. The spacing of were tab shingles are nailed seem to also correspond. Just a thought, but could you pick one of the bad spots and lift a shingle and pop an air hole and see if you can flatten out?? 20 min. time and you could maybe find your answer.
Your shingles appear to be Grand Manors which weigh about 450 lbs/sq. They'll lay wrinkly felt (edit: or I&WS) down. I did some measuring using the shingle tabs and I'm willing to bet it's a sheathing problem. The lines are 4' tall and two of them are 8' apart. The two that are close together looks like a 2' wide sheet of plywood wedged in. The remedy is pull the shingles in the affected areas (test one first), run a saw set at the sheathing thickness up the joint between the two pieces of ply (might have to renail), refelt and re-install the shingles.
I'd call back whoever did the sheathing. Good luck.
Can I get that Little Debbie snack cracker out from under the heel of your pointy boot?..
http://grantlogan.net/
Edited 5/27/2006 8:58 am ET by seeyou
You said Ice & Watershield over the entire deck not felt right? Those look like big bubbles in the ice and water that they didnt cut out. Either that or your plywood is doing some strage de-laminating
Bill,
If you take this problem roof apart and discover the root cause,I'll hope you'll be kind enough to let us all know what you've found-so we can add that info to our memory banks.
Good luck and here's hoping for a relatively easy fix for you.
Walter
Pretty amazing thread.
People focus on teh bubbles and not the lines.
People focus on the lines and not the bubbles.
Other people forget that the line are top to bottom and obviusly not just at 4' x 8' spacing.
And all of us are clueless.
LOL!
So what is your point? That you have all the answers and the rest of us are clueless?
Are you a full time roof person or what is your expertise in?
Too bad neither of us lives next door. It'd take every bit of 5 mins to find out the cause.
Can I get that Little Debbie snack cracker out from under the heel of your pointy boot?..
http://grantlogan.net/
theslate, no need to be a horse's ...
My point was obvious to a small child. No one has an answer and some people only focus on one of the two or more problems present.
Where did you get the impression that I had an answer? Or where you just enjoying being an ...
I don't think Slateman was being an azz. He asked the guy if and when he finds the problem if he would post the results. Your the one that got all giddy.
He also happens to be a roofer who has maybe seen the problem before. What's your background?
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Read his post.
I did.
Read yours.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Edited 6/5/2006 6:16 pm ET by Gunner
doit bares a strong resemblance to a formerly chastised poster with it's argumentative and small mind banter.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
LOL. Don't get me started.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
why not?
warren zevon wouldn't pull any punches.
and neither would that karate guy you like to emulate.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
LOL I'm not an emulater.
Chuck Norris would potato sack him.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
well, didn't look up the definition.
it just sounded good.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
LOL I did before I replied. Didn't want to look stupid............er.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Hey how's the knee doing? What kind of pain killers do they give you to wash down with the beer for a cut up knee?
My left knee has gone to heck all of a sudden. Don't know what the deal is. I could hardly walk yesterday. Today is a little better.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Here in Ohio we bite down on rawhide.
or frontal nudity.
Mind over matter you know. At least from this educated corner of the state.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
So your stock piling them? ;) Smart move.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
OK - What happened to your knee?I only wanna know 'cause if frontal nudity is the cure...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Quick full force contact with an immovable concrete object, non alcohol related.
I find the frontal nudity is a real organic medicine in alot of cases.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
may you scars be decorative ones
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I find the frontal nudity is a real organic medicine in alot of cases"
Calvin - I wouldn't do this for just anyone, but since it's you I'll try to help out.
Send me your address. I'll send you some good pictures of me nude. Maybe some of the other guys here can help out too. I suspect that will help get you up and running - for cover maybe?
Don K.
I expect to be misinterpreted in the gay community.
But here, didn't see it coming.
Please change the frontal nudity medicine to FEMALE frontal nudity.
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
We need pics..
and NOT of your knee, the cure will suffice.
Um, Hi JOY, never mind, it was , uh, just me..sm***och.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Even in Little League, didn't take many strikes.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
You guys enjoy it. Admit it. Apparently don't ahve anything better to do.
Read it again.
I did. You should read yours if you want to judge, judge yourself first.
Your doing the same as everyone else. Giving advice that the poster asked for.Then you want to chastise others for doing the same thing.
Pretty weird little fella if you ask me.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Gunner, you are wacked. I have never chastised anyone! You think I'm pretty weird? Not half as your sensitive ....
I was mearly laughing at the irony of now well over one hundred posts on what is obviously a mystery wiht fifty plus guesses.
Relax man!
Gunner you really think posting "That you have all the answers and the rest of us are clueless?" is a friendly remark?
Please don't respond wiht a lie in an attempt to save face. Just be honest.
He asked you if you thought you had all the answers and were saying that the rest were clueless.
Take the question in context. You can't make a case for yourself if you pull amateur jackass stunts like that. You look stupid when you try to make a case out of, out of context statements. Your dealing with grown men we see right through it.
P.S. the louder you whine the worse you look.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
snick snick snick
You said "jackass".
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Still dont understand why they havent gotten any factory reps . out there to check it out.These guys are usually a wealth of information and have seen alot of diffrent situations.
Plus how long does it take to pop a shingle off there and really see. I would of been up there the first morning i saw Eyegores humps. Or is that EEgore?
Yeah, as I said before, if I lived nearby I could figger it out in less time than it would take to set the ladder up.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
......snort.....
you're right ... he did say "jackass"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"If anybody slams me against the boards, I'm going to pee all over myself."
Suzannes a dyke! I know I slept with her!
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Edited 6/6/2006 10:19 pm ET by Gunner
I don't normally let others fight my battles-but you're doing a much finer job with this than I could do!
Like I said last nite I appreciate the backup even though I'm relatively new here.
The tone of his posts I thought made it sound like he was saying most of us were clueless.
Thanks again for the help-it's nice to see others felt as I did in regards to asking him what his point was.
I hope I get to back you up one of these days.
Walter
>>>>>>>>I hope I get to back you up one of these days.Better make your reservations for TIPIFEST then. I've got his back, but I'm only one man..............
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
I'm glad you've got it, you're good sized. I stand in that wide ride's shadow.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
How's the knee? I just heard.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Big, stiff and sore.
Kind of like Gunner in a bad mood.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
"I stand in that wide ride's shadow."
HEY!
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Edited 6/6/2006 10:15 pm ET by Gunner
No problem. When your, right your right. And nobody can argue with that.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Grown man? Really. Well I will take your word for it.
I never took you out of context. I suggest you read your post. You were the horse who accused me of claiming to have the answers, which I NEVER EVER CAME CLOSE TOO. Show me my post to that effect if think otherwise. But you will not find one. I rest my case. You were teh one to accuse me of claiming everyone was clueless. I never did and you will not find one post to show otherwise.
If you can, put up or ...
What's your story? Where do you come from? What are you after? Have you always exhibited this behavior?
Give your head a shake. It might help.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
LMFAO...!!!!!!!!
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Gun,
Ever since your knee has been acting up you have been acting b*tchey. Have a hot dog. Have a beer. Call a friend. Oh, you have none. :-)
The guy is a nut case with no where to go with the argument. No one agrees with him but him and he thinks its enough. Have a hot dog. Have a beer. I would lol. DanT
Well, all if everyone thinks the comment directed at me was a friendly one, and my commet prior to the nasty retort was anything but an obvious jest, they you are all horses. Glad I don't personally know any of you. You can all have your littel grade school click fest and ignore normal civility and common sense. Fine by me.
Growing old is a requirement, growing old is an option. I suggest teh later.
"Glad I don't personally know any of you."
Oh man, I am hurt. Really. You mean this ends the oppurtunity to live without another argumentative know it all. I can't stand the pain.
" You can all have your littel grade school click fest and ignore normal civility and common sense."
Cold moment of reality I guess. Grade school clicks don't end in grade school. Knowing someone for a period of time, liking them and believing in their character usually over rules a one shot meeting with someone who feels the need to sound superior. Just something that you might put in your "get along with others" file. DanT
NAh it's got nothing to do with the knee. I get riled up by goofs like this sometimes. All self important. Typing away like he's on a mission to prove wrong. Head twitching, fingers tripping.
Aint no biggie.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Have the beer and hot dog anyway. Relaxing is good. We are heading to Colorado Friday morning on the bike. About 10 days. So I am in a mellow mood I guess. But I knew your point......and you were right! DanT
Good deal. What part of Colorado?
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Southwest of Denver, Buena Vista area. I like ghost towns and that area is centrally located to a few of them. Doing the cabin thing for a few days and will base out of there. Should be a nice time. DanT
Glad to see we are on topic and anxious to learn the root cause of the roof/shingle failure.
I certainly wouldn't blane the OP for not wanting to go back to this thread and enlighten us.
This has taken some detours no doubt.
Very cool. I love that area. Good luck. And take lots of pictures.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Man this thread wasnt just hijacked it was thrown in the trunk bound and gagged.
Ahh nothing to do but wait and see what the real cause of the problem is anyway.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Edited 6/8/2006 7:39 pm ET by Gunner
Yeah this is entertainment for us ....b ut with the liabilitiy and culpability clock ticking ; Id be climbing a ladder.
Yea I would be too.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
Read Mr. Dudley Dorights response to Txlandlords post on framing the tall wall -where he says the 1.2 million dollar house is "very very boring"
I'm sure Dud has built whole subdivisions of million+ homes.
Actually I find him very very boring.He's the one who has been calling everyone horses---.
Almost didn't want to post anymore cause I bet I know what will happen.
you mean you might get in trouble if he finds out you've been chasing Nel?
Beware. RFID is coming.
heh heh If I was at my puter I'd post a pic of Dudley and Snidely Whiplash.
be living a cartoon
but actually seeing the number of new posts listed I was hoping to find out what the problem was on the roof.
Beware. RFID is coming.
Edited 6/7/2006 6:37 pm ET by rez
Ok...fill me in. IF you are NOT at your computer, are you posting from your Capn Crunch watch or WHAT?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
I'm gigging in NH and using someone's dial-up. Man, is it slow.
I mean it has two speeds, slow and slower.
Sometimes it even stops.
Forget opening attachments as it's not worth the wait.
In the future have pity and compassion on those that attempt the cyber area of their lives on dial-up.
be rain, friggin' rain. Work in the rain.
Beware. RFID is coming.
" I rest my case. "Please do
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"You were teh one to accuse me of claiming everyone was clueless. I never did and you will not find one post to show otherwise."
AHEM!!...put up or shut up U asked? >>>74227.48
The last line, right above your 'LOL'
Maybe you had a memory lapse?
Edited 6/9/2006 6:44 am ET by caveman
Excuse me. I might have been some other horses who made the statements. Ones the same as the ohter I guess.
Thanks for the back up.Maybe I read DoRights post wrong,thought he was being uppity.
Thanks again,Walter
He is. I'm not trying to cause a flame war here. But the guy is out of line.
"Enjoy every sandwich." Warren Zevon.
background?
we don't need no stinkin' background.
be thinkin' Dudley
Beware. RFID is coming.
I certainly will post the findings when they are... found! Thanks to all for the ideas and discussion. At this point, I'm looking for a roofer who will attack this reasonably small, PIA job when I'm sure there are more lucrative opportunities this time of year. I climbed around the trusses again today and see absolutely no evidence of the sheathing having lifted from the trusses and maybe 6 nail misses on the entire roof... both sides. If this is a sheathing problem then it must be a drastic curling occurring at the joints. Until resolution is posted,and until I encounter my next dilemna (soon I'm sure), I'mm off to call every roofing contractor I can find.
As i said before, there could be a lack of nails along the seem, if you look close in the picture to the lower left a couple of the ripples appear to be vertical and 8ft apart. The only way to correct it is open it back up and inspect the roof sheating or perhaps just the ice and water barrier.
Wow, all this discussion! All these opinions! So many seem so certain about the cause!
I went back and looked, and only found one photo. Not very clear, but we ran it through our sophisticated supercomputer programs and simulations, had all our analysts exhaustively review all the results, and reached this conclusion:
It's a mobile weapons lab! The ridges we see are under-shingle storage caches of chemical agents!
But maybe not.
May we please have a better photo, preferably a whole bunch of them, shot from various angles, in various light conditions?
my 2 cents
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/roofs/unvented_roof.pdf
In vented roofs, this is often manifested in the buckling of shingles early in the
morning as the moisture migrates in to the roof deck sheathing and the joints close. This
is followed by relaxation and opening up of the roof sheathing later in the day—the
buckling disappears. With unvented roof assemblies, this inwardly driven moisture must
be addressed. The preferred method is to prevent the moisture from entering the roof
deck material via the installation of a vapor barrier.
Gee, I wonder if the roof was...
...vented or unvented?
Beware. RFID is coming.
I might as well toss my two cents in:
I think everyone is searching for only one right answer, and I suspect there are more than one reason.
I'm seeing some bubbles that aren't precisely vertical. I'm seeing some sharp bubbles that could indeed be joint swelling at the butt joints. I'm seeing long vertical gentle bubbles that probably are elevated rafters. The two close ones appear to be rafters, but it could a small section of osb. A lot of crews leave a place like that to enter and exit the roof when they are sheathing it. It could be buckling becasue the shingles weren't spaced properly. It could be osb not spaced properly.
I think it's a little of this and a little of that.
I'd get the roofing crew back to investigate and/or fix the problem. I wouldn't let them pass the buck on the framers becasue if the roof wasn't flat enough to meet the manufactur's recommendations, they shouldn't have covered it up. They are the ones laying the high end shingles and they should be a little more dilligent checking things out before they lay a flat type shingle like that. If the subsurface is deficient, I'd get the framers back to fix the subsurface, but I'd still expect the roofers to eat their share.
If you can get into the attic, I'd bring a straightedge up there to see how bad the rafters are wavering in the affected area.
Next time, order dimensional shingles (shake look), or insist on tighter tolerances on the roof deck. Be prepared to pay more for either the trusses, or the framer's time to fix the trusses. Either way, don't spend thousands of dollars more for a premium flat roof, without spending the equal amount for the premium flat substrate. That might mean more hours tweaking the trusses and heavier sheathing.
And don't leave felt exposed overnight. The dew causes it to buckle.
blue
Gas or electric heat?
two bath or three?
OSB or ply?
Roof laid on Tuesday, perhaps?
LOL!
Oh, man Gene theslate is going to be all over you! What is your point you are an expert and everyone else morons? LOL!
Bill, I'm in upstate NY. Delaware county.
Call me if you want 607 829 2133. Vince Carbone
Everyone,
Bill called me during the week. So Fri. I took a ride to his place,which is beautiful by the way, and climbed up on the roof. The ridges are not as uniform as they appear in his pictures. Some are vertical some horizontal and some diagonal.
I did not remove any shingles, it was raining off and on, but I'm 99% positive it's a problem with the plywood delaminating.I was able to push the bumps down but it took some force.
It definitely is not a problem with the S & I and from underneath you can see no movement of the ply.
Vince Carbone
Good man
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Check in the attic for nail misses along the raftersthat includes nails on an angle coming out of the rafter also .If you see a lot of misses then your plywood has begun to curl at the ends of the sheets.Lack of nails could also be the problem.
Shavey, look at the pictures! The veticle line show on EVERY SINGLE STINK'N rafter not just every eight feet!
LOOKS LIKE THE ICE/WEATHER BARRIER MAY HAVE EXPANDED OR "PUCKERED" WHEN
THE WEATHER GOT WARM.
Not withstanding what Vince just told us -
Please explain to me:
You (had) installed I&W Sheild which had a granular surface. Did it have a sticky back material and a thin plastic film over the ENTIRE back surface which needed to be removed? I ask this because I have NEVER seen THIS material. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist: just that I have not seen it. BTW, I have done work in the Catskills.
The ONLY I&W sheild I have seen is very plyable, elastic, smooth on one side, sticky on the other and requires that a thin plastic film be removed for it to be installed properly. Grace is the most popular brand. There are others, but I do not recall any names since I do not encounter them often.
Just asking for information here. No accusations or judgenment as to cause.... yet.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
The backing on the Grace I&W I use is still waxed kraft type paper.There is a roll roofing type of peel'n'stick for low slope roofs with granules, but it is also thick, re-inforced, and very expensive. I can't imagine using that for an underlayment.Somebody must be marketing a new I&W wwith a granulated walable surface.
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"The backing on the Grace I&W I use is still waxed kraft type paper."Yes, of course. You are correct. I was thinking of something else - don't know what, but I now see it in my mind's eye the thin plastic film is about 3" wide. Must be the meds.The Grace I&W sheild is backed with a waxy kraft type paper.I am curious if he used rolled roofing rather than I&W Sheild. They are two completely different products and have completely different properties.Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
that could certainly cause the problem, but whew! Hard to imagine somebody choosing to work with 90# up on that surafce!
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The ice and water shield they used was a standard brand,I'm not sure which, and the granules that are on it are very tiny, just enough to make a slight rough surface.Not at all like rolled roofing.Bill said that the I&w was put down correctly with no bulges or wrinkles.
From what I saw the roof was done very professionally,flashed with copper flashing and a lot of attention to detail at the chimney and side walls,where a lower roof meets the wall.
Again, until we remove some shingles we won't know for sure,but it felt like plywood bubbling up. Vince Carbone
Still betting on the I&W shield doing the buckling, but PLEASE let us know when shingles are removed.
I have only seen granule surfaced I&W shield in the past 10 years.
Tamko & GAF both have granulated products.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"The backing on the Grace I&W I use is still waxed kraft type paper.
There is a roll roofing type of peel'n'stick for low slope roofs with granules, but it is also thick, re-inforced, and very expensive. I can't imagine using that for an underlayment."
The grace you use up there isn't the peel and stick type? I'm in mass and all the stuff I've seen is the peel and stick. A lot of the very high end builders will do cedar roofs and a shingle style house, a few here and there you'll see a slate but not too often. Either slate or cedar, they always use Grace I &W, the peel and stick, as the underlayment with the cedar breather for cedar roofs. There is a huge house that I saw the other day, here's the pic of the carriage house, you can see the I&W on the right. All the roofer's I see hate working with grace, they say they toss as much as they use with how sticky it is. I don't know how these guys do steep roofs like this, this garage they must have easily used about 25 to 30 rolls.
Yes, the grace I&W is a peel'n stick. My comment is that the paper backing that you peel off is a craft type waxed paper as opposed to someone elses earlir comment that the removable peel-off stuff was a plastic.
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BTW, that is a roof I would have loved to have shingled
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You may still have that opportunity available! At least half of it!F
Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.
Robert Heinlein, Time Enough For Love
Saw that place when I was mountain biking. That's only the carriage house/garage, about 7k sq ft, the house is 23k sq ft. One of the owners of the celtics is building it. I looked around a bit, the size is unbelievable. Some of the rooms are bigger than houses. I haven't seen one like this either, its all concrete panels, floor, walls, etc. and they have pvc piping in them for chasing wires. I'll ride over in that area a few times this summer, it will be neat to see it going up. I think start to finish the whole place is going to be 2 to 3 years.
That builder and some of the other in that town really do some amazing things with shingle style houses. They had a heating/steaming set up and bending forms to curve the lower course shingles
Edited 6/12/2006 7:48 pm ET by DDay
Since this thread has slowed and I can't find your name in the pulldown all menu I'll do a hijack.
Scenario:
3 season 10x18 backporch. Ply subfloor and t&g fir finish.Thing is the house was built in a wet area and a 4 ft crawl space under the porch sits on top of thick footers with several feet of loose large rock fill between.Float activated sump will run the gathered water out but a brook is 20some feet away and the brook waterlevel matches the crawl floor and seeps back into the said crawlspace. The house itself has a workable underground drain system.Question is might it be advisible to place a plastic vapor barrier atop the porch crawl to help lessen the collection of high humidity in that crawl? Only ventilation is found in two 6"x12" screened louvers centered at each end.I've never seen such a continual wet crawl and not sure how to handle it.I realize that this is not the most ideal situation but just want to give the best bang for the buck without pouring a slab in there or such extensive measures.I may be nitpicking around an obvious but seeing the excessive moisture, would placing an oil stain or tung on the t&g fir be problematic in any way?Thanks
Beware. RFID is coming.
Tung sounds good. For hundreds of years it was first choice for wood boats.I would place vapor stop at bottom of the joists and add as much ventilation as possible, even think abpout changing to latice work around base instead of walls with siding - or is this cmu?
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What the heck is the reason- I've been skimming -did I miss it?
It's not known yet. The shingles need to come off in an area to figure it out.
I don't blame anyone for not wanting to tear off any of those shingles. What do they cost 160 a square material only- Are they Certainteed or o/c berkshire?
Edited 6/16/2006 6:44 pm ET by maxp
Walls are tight poured concrete about 4 inches above ground down to footer about 4or5 foot below and filled with rock to about 6inches below top of footer. Thus it's like a pool under there with the depth of the water surface continualy changing somewhere within the depths of the rock which I'm guessing could be any depth from a yard on down to China.If I may can I pick the brain one more time with a question regarding a quality sump pump. Any recommendations as to a certain brand regarding size and durability?
be depths and
be thanks again
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I've got two or three, but have no idea what the names areBut take this hint - I bought them at the lumber yard.
I bought two for a client once - emerency situation - only place open was home Depot. Neither one worked and HD gave me a hard tiome returning them, 'till i MADE A STINK IN THE MAIN FRONT AISLE
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The I & W is a CertainTeed product they call "WinterGuard." It is, as Vince said, comprised of very small granules and, yes, it had a peel and stick surface over the entire back of the product. I have used this on other roof sections on this house with great success and no bubbling or other problems. It is in no way similar to rolled roofing excepting that it is rolled.
Got this off the Certain Teed website:"WinterGuard is a vapor barrier. Therefore, if WinterGuard is applied over a majority of the roof deck, proper deck ventilation must be provided."From the pic you posted, the house looks open to the elements. I am wondering that with the heavy rains we got during the past few weeks that some of the moisture/ humidity might have gotten trapped inside the attic space and was then heated by the sun. Without adequate ventilation it may have migrated through the sheathing.I am guessing there isn't a window in the gable ends of the roof/ attic area.Have the soffit vents been installed yet?Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Frankie,
The house is wide open no windows, doors, walls,insulation, nothing.
But it does have ridge and soffet vents.It does bring up the point of how the plywood is doing what it is doing. Maybe damp ply then I&W applied before it dries and moisture has nowhere to go?
Maybe just bad luck and a few bad sheets of ply that would delaminate anyway. Vince Carbone
Vince - "It does bring up the point of how the plywood is doing what it is doing."Exactly. I have seen plywood delaminate, on its own, only once in my life. 3 sheets which the manufacturer took back and replaced.The thing is, BillD60 got a huge delivery of sheathing for his house. What are the chances that a) so many sheets were defective, and b) all of the defective sheets were used on the same roof area? If it was two sheets, maybe. But for so many sheets and not a hint of it on any other roof face - unlikely.I am curious as to WHO laid the I&W sheild! Maybe it was laid on the roof in the early AM and did not have time for the morning dew to evaporate. Roofers will work on the sunny side of a house first during the day because the north side is cooler and damper in the AM. Maybe the I&W installer was a bit overzealous.But I really do not think it is this the case as the failure would have come sooner. Last fall was pretty mild.With a house which is buttoned-up tight, the ridge vent and soffit vents work well to expell and heat, cooling the roof. However, with an open house, and high humidity, the attic space developes and retains a great volume of moisture for which the ridge and soffit vents are in adequate.My guess is that the moisture has cause and adhesion failure of the I&W sheild. The I&W sheild and shingle assembly's bubbling, if it was cool out, as it was this weekend, would feel stiff and therefore feel like the plywood has delaminated.Were you able to remove any of the shingles? It seems the moisture/ humidity got through the sheathing's seams, as roof sheathing is diliberately laid with spacing - hence the horizontal bubbles. A first remedy would be to set a fan inside the attice space to eliminate any excess humidity. Heat from within would also acccelerate moisture migration back into the attice - FROM THE SHEATHING. The longer BillD60 leaves the moisture in the roof assembly, the more difficult it will be to remove it without demo'ing it back to the sheathing. The warm days will cause the moisture to expand and migrate away from the seams. Humidity ain't traveling THROUGH plywood.Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
The thing is, BillD60 got a huge delivery of sheathing for his house. What are the chances that a) so many sheets were defective, and b) all of the defective sheets were used on the same roof area? If it was two sheets, maybe. But for so many sheets and not a hint of it on any other roof face - unlikely.
I would think the chances are high.
In most cases delamination is caused by faulty gluing in the factory. If the machine malfunctioned, it would be quite normal to expect to see several pieces in succession delaminating.
In subs where I've worked where they use the cheapest lumber, it's not uncommon to see five, six or more pieces needing replacement. Each time the mill rep comes out and inspects to see if we've spaced our sheets before he'll pay the bill.
blue
Yes, you are correct. However I was referring to the chances they would then be applied to ONLY one roof face. Usually when roofing, sheets are divided up and used in multiple locations at the same time.There isn't any evidence of defective panels ANYWHERE else. I find that peculiar. What are the chances?Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Frankie,
I would think the chances are good in this case, Bill said the ply was stacked in front of the house. The bad sheets are also on the front of the house mostly in the lower portion of the roof. They would have been the first sheets off the pile, He did say they had some rain before putting the ply up. Vince Carbone
thanks - good to know
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Looks like you got a problem that has no easy fix.
First problem is Ice and water sheild should never be used on entire deck. Check manufactor specs .................9' from eve is max.
When installed it was most likley not coverd the first day and wrinkled over night then roofed over on following day. When we have to felt or watersheild for overnight protection we wait until the sun has been on the product for a few hours before roofing over it the next day. The suns warmth will tighten it up again. Its the overnight temp change that causes the bubbles.
The only fix is to remove shingles cut bubbles and try again .
Your roof has plenty of pitch and 9' would have been fine then 15 or 30 lb felt on the rest.
Good luck, Ronbo from All trade
Architect spec'd total deck coverage and mt local CEO is a retired accountant... go figure! The I & W was laid only as the shingles were laid so there was no over night exposure. Once we get a few shingles off and truly diagnose this problem, I guess we're all right... or wrong. I appreciate the thoughts.
I remember you - we got into a squabble about roofing prices a few years ago. Glad to see you and hope you're well. Last time we talked, you were getting ready to move. You get unpacked yet?
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Yupper......Good to hear from ya.
Back in NJ and doing well, thanks for asking. Building homes now . Slowed a lot on the roofing........thank God!
Putting together a nice trex deck right now, curves and what not. Should be fun. Still roofing?
Ronbo
>>>>>>>>Still roofing?That's what I do and what I've done for about 20 years. Probably finish up my working years doing the same. I don't get on the roof much anymore. Click on my website link when you've got some time to kill. Glad to hear things are going well and the career change worked out. Cheers.
Does this hat make my butt look big?
http://grantlogan.net/
Bill:
Be sure to tell us what you find is the cause - the suspense is killing me...
Bill- What was the final outcome on this shingle ordeal.
Would apprreciate a heads up about it. Thanks
well, let's play it again then, sam.
After countless discussions and several on-site consultations, we ended up agreeing that taking off shingles was the only way to completely diagnose the problem. Since we are not moving in for a while (remember, I'm doing this all myself) I have opted to leave it as it is until next year so I can prepare funds for the fix which will mean a complete tear-off and re-shingle at the least; if it is a delamination problem, then we'll be looking at re-sheathing too. Any way, I'm the type who would have to fix it once I knew the problem and that just isn't n the budget this year. We're still dry and I can continue with mechanicals, utilities and siding in the mean time. Thanks for your interest.
As for my opinion of the situation: Having completed the kitchen, garage and porch roofs on my own since hiring out the main roof, I can easily see where less than complete attention to detail during ice and water installation will result in bulges or ridges that do not flaten out (remember, ice and water was spec'd for the entire roof surface). I completed the otehr roofs from the same stack of plywood and have 3 other roofs that are flawless. Thus, my money, literally,is on shoddy work.
Thanks for the update.
It will be interesting to hear the final analysis next year.
Cheerswell, let's play it again then, sam.