I’ve searched all of the local bookstores and home improvement store libraries trying to find a decent book in Fireplace construction. No real luck so far. Anyone have a favorite publication on this overall masonry construction?
I have a 1952 Donnelley publication that covers the general technology of fireboxes, and I also have a Rumford book that covers that style of firebox. Unfortunately the fireplace base design and rules of corbeling (sp?) of bricks and block aren’t covered.
I’m making a fireplace with a 4×8′ base that will support (probably) a 36″ square face Rumford. Chimney above that (internal to the structure) will be over 38′ above the firebox.
So.. Any current publications I should look for?
Jack of all trades and master of none – you got a problem with that?
Replies
I'm not suprised that no one has written a suggestion. this seems to be a word of mouth trade. All the books I find are from the mid 60's.
I guess the fireplace insert is where the world is going.
Try "Masonry Fireplace and Chimney Handbook", second edition (1995), 225 pages, published by the Masonry Institute of America.
Sorry, I can't remember where I bought my copy.
Thanks.
I'll try Amazon for your suggestion.
in the meantime I surfed quite a while and found the following:
http://www.rumford.com/code/IRC01.html
Building code for rumford fireplaces
Masonry How To & Construction Instruction
Residential Masonry Fireplace and Chimney Handbookby James E. Amrhein, S.E.; MIA; Los Angeles; 1995More About Book
Masonry Skillsby Richard T. Kreh, Sr.More About Book
Concrete Masonry Handbook for Architects, Engineers, Builders (5th ed)by Portland Cement Assn.More About Book
Concrete Countertops: Design, Form, and Finishes for the New Kitchen and Bathby Fu-Tung ChengMore About Book
The Brick Bookby John OliverMore About Book
Building Code Requirements for Masonry Structures: Specification for Masonry Structures (Aci 530.1-95/Asce 6-95/Tms 602-95); Commentary on BuildingMore About Book
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I was just yesterday browsing the home building section of a used book store in Olympia, WA and saw a couple (maybe 3 or 4) books on fireplaces. Try Googling "Orca Books".
Do you know about Powell's Bookstore in Portland, Oregon? They have a building section you could get lost in (in fact I DO every time I go in there). I'm not sure how comprehensive their website is, but you might try there. I'd be astonished if they didn't have several titles - out of print, current publications, alternative designs, whatever.
Have you tried "Builders Resource" in San Francisco area? They have tons of obscure building books, too.
Wow,
Quite a selection, I looked at the bookstore website and found several that appeared useful. I'll look thru the list in detail this weekend. Your direction of used bookstores also points me tword some used bookstores in my area. I haven't darkened their door and that might be the best bet. My experience in the new bookstore offerings is that they are long on design ideas and thin on descriptions and practicle construction guidelines.
Thanks.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
WHAT EVER YOU DO!, GET A COPY OF " NFPA 211" (I think)
That stands for National Fire Protection Agency. Check with your Fire department.
Make sue you let you flues expand liniealy!!
Also GREAT info through the "brick institute of america"
Pogo
I met a gin soaked barroom queen in Memphis, She tried to take me up stairs for a ride!
You mean Up and down? I 'd expect it would move but how do you deal with the chimney cap? I don't think I've ever seen other than a formed cap that directly contacts the flue.
I understand the need not to have it bind to the chimney sides by providing a mineral wrap.
As for the NFPA report I may already have that (from the web) but I'll be certain to review those requirements.
ThanksJack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Hey !
The Masonry Fireplace and Chimney Handbook", second edition (1995), is a marvel. If you can't figure out the design from that you ought to go back to Lego's and work it out by hand.
I found a copy via Amazon. They placed a future order for me and it came within a month of originally placing the order. 20 bucks was well worth it.
The most amazing thing is that the book had a name inside the front cover.."Laura". Hard to believe that it was owned by a woman. Yea that is a sexist comment, but she has to be on a short list of women in the world. I thought my wife was the only woman that found amusement in mixing mud and laying block. Live & learn.
All that aside the book is wonderful. Every chapter covers some new aspect, and the reasons for, things in masonry. I truely appreciate the lead.
In my quoting of materials the amount of facing brick was pretty astounding. No less astounding than the cost of the Rumford throat & smoke chamber. 1500 for the 42 or 48" variety. Yes it does cover the 100 dollar damper but that is a lot of money for a pair of clay pots. A cast version is about the same for the forms not including the materials (Refractory mud & concrete). It seems the boys in Ohio have a captive market. Any suggestions on other sources of Rumford throats & smoke chambers?Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Thanks, I'm glad the book was helpful. I hope others have ideas for you on the Rumford stuff, because I don't.
I spent a lot of time doing the same thing. Finally I learned all I needed to know on how to build a Rumford in a 8 page guide given out by Superior Masonry. They sell flue tile, brick etc. and a curved throat piece that they say is the key to the Rumford system. The Rumford is such a simple design that it doesn't need a lot of instruction. Our first and only fireplace works flawlessly and I aint no brick mason. (Fortunately the firebox soots up quickly and the grout lines disapeared). Because form walls I do know how to build, we did a cast in place chimney.
I have the Superior Clay publication from the web as well as the BIA (brick Institute of america) and a Hart-Rumford publication from the web. The last one is a poured throat style rumford. I think I saw parts of that done on This Old House. I'm not crazy about using the "Heatstop" material as the throat surface in the poured version.
If you used the Superior Clay throat I have some questions on that. In looking thru the literature I didn't see a Lintel (piece of angle Iron) either above or below the clay throat on the one piece version. Did you make the one piece or the segmented throat? Did you have the stones... to make the Herringbone firebrick firebox or did you flat lay the firebrick?
Pouring ther chimney sounds like a smart effort. Mine will be almost 40 foot tall by the time I exit the roof. Sounds like a double pour. How tall was yours?
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Oh man, your making my brain work. This was a few beers, I mean years ago but I'll try to remember as best I can...
I was being advised by a friend of mine at the time who used to make these all the time but went into the dot-com business. (Don't know what he's doing now) He was always telling me not to worry so much, the Rumford works so well, it doesn't need to be spec'd like a Mercedes.
We laid up flat brick, my friend told me the box will get so sooted up no one will notice the herring bone after a month or so. Not to mention that is way out of my league in bricklaying. At the time I was foreman of the whole house and the designer. I didn't even consider anything else. We used heat-stop and besides being expensive and a bit of a pain to work with, it seems to do the job.
As I recall we had a peice of angle iron made up that went through the one- piece throat. The smoke chamber was frighteningly warped and out of square, but a call to the factory informed us that it was the best they could do for such a large piece of fired clay. Anyway, we made it work. The damper was disapointing too, pretty cheap piece of hardware for a chimney that could last hundreds of years. Next time I'd order ahead for a better one.
The house was built with Rastra, an insulated concrete form, which required five foot pours as the walls went up. I staged the chimney with the Rastra pours so it ended up a three-pour monolith. Since it was in the center of the house and enclosed with framing and plaster, I didn't have to worry about anything looking too good until it popped out the roof. About 35' tall including fireplace.
The hardest part was finding a way to get an airspace between the flue tile and the concrete chimney for expansion and contraction. One company makes this expensive #### just for that and once I found them I could never get them to call me back, and then they didn't want to deal with a small order, and they didn't have any disributors on the West coast, etc. I finally called What's his name, you've probably got him by now, the Guru of Rumfords, lives in Washington. I could find his name if you need it. He spent a long time on the phone with me, several times-really helpful and enjoyable. Anyway, he told me to just put several layers of cardboard taped to the flue. It will eventually crisp, turn to dust and leave the desired airspace.
The good news is that the whole damn thing worked. A fellow worker, very wise man, shook his head the whole time we built it saying it will smoke like hellfire. He is still amazed to this day how that 48x48 x16 deep fireplace just cranks heat and never smokes. Actually, on the windiest days we get an occasional backdraft, but the chimney cap I pounded out (for temp purposes) from some leftover copper and it hardly has the aerodynamics of a real one, but it works so it stayed. And when it gets windy, its 60-80 mph gusts. (a little exposed until the trees grow up).
It is the heart of the house, like a fireplace should be, and the center of attention day or night. Being my first fireplace I, of course, cringe at all the imperfections, but no one else seems to notice. Maybe its the fine Mendo wine and firelight.
Wow, that was a trip down memory lane. Hope it helps, let me know.
Please look closly at the drawings and plans in the material that has been recomended to you. Before casting the cap, an expansion joint has to be put arund the top flue and then a flexible sealant applied. the flues move THROUGH the cast cap.
Pogo
I met a gin soaked barroom queen in Memphis, She tried to take me up stairs for a ride!
Thanks. Never did that although I've recast a few caps. Probably why they break, eh?
Thanks.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
By the way, what the hell is a Puenschke?
Polish Bismark, basically a raised glazed jelly filled round donut without the hole.
It is some big thing here in Milwaukee for Fat tuesday (Shrove tuesday before Ash wednesday). They make a lot (10's of thousands) at several polish bakeries and they all get bought and eaten in offices, worksites, and probably police cars. Frankly, I never met a donut I didn't like although a bearclaw is more to my taste.
We can't have a Mardi Gras parade here like down in New Orleans as the pasties would freeze and fall off in the street. That kind of exposure doesn't fly well with the city mothers (fathers...~maybe)
Hope yours is warmer than here.
Thanks on the fireplace tips. I was dreading the project as I didn't know my dupa from my left hand. Now I feel I have enough information and leads on the literature to find my way thru.
I'm in it for the experience. Now it looks fun.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Very enlightening.
No where in the paper I've read did it indicate the angle iron lintel under the throat but it sure seems needed.
In the planning stage the Herringbone firebrick sounds good but in real life it won't get done in my fireplace. Just considering the quantity of cuts and the cloud of dust made is enough to keep me away from that Herringbone plan.
The expensive **** you mentioned is 300 $ plus 50$ S&H for 200 sq foot. To do what you did with cardboard would take 2 coats of the ****. Good choice.
Tell me about make up air. Did you use the ash dump / make up air device that the Superior Clay guys offer? While the air inlet looks novel in the design it looks like 16 Ga sheetmetal painted black in the pictures. seems like a cheesy low quality air inlet. I read that the make up air is part of the certified rumford design. (Certified being a design package that allows usage in clean air states concerned about particulate & gas emissions. Not my state (WI) but it sounded good) Certified gives similar ratings to the catalyst bed woodstoves . I think CA, CO, and about 5 other states have an axe to grind on the emissions of wood fireplaces. (what next catalyst bed underwear?) I wonder if it is worth the trouble to make an air inlet in the firebox considering that I have a fireplace that will be centered in the home. Having no exterior wall makes it goofy to get a pipe of fresh outside air into the fireplace.
The wind issue you have is the same as mine. I get 50+ MPH winds with regularity. On a 50 foot bluff overlooking Lake Michigan I figure the jet stream is 100 foot over my head. Snow shoveling is a marginal pastime as the only worry are drifts. On the cap you built, I'm assuming you have a "duck" proof cap that will keep big critters out. (I say duck cause I've had to fish out two of them from my home chimney's smoke shelf in the last 30 years.) Whichever type of cap is installed it seems to make both pluses and minuses to the draft quality. My latest cap is an enameled steel expanded metal type. In an acronym it is a POS. The metal weldments rusted out 3 years after I installed it. On my 4/12 at home it isn't a big deal to switch it out, however on this new fireplace I'll build Up north I have a 16/12 pitch to contend with. You don't want to go up there more often than necessary.
Thanks for the insight. Time to buy the Puenschke's and get them to my customers today. Fat Tuesday after all.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Yeah, I forgot to mention what Booch said. At the top I dug out the cardboard a couple of inches and pumped a bunch of roof tile sealant. I "never" use sealant as the first line of defense, eventually I will fashion some flashing, but it seems to work so far. It gets pretty warm up there, tho. I might go back with CRV (?).
I went back and forth on the intake, and like you, decided it wasn't really going to be neccesary in the middle of a large house. In theory it is essential (definitely in a small air-tight place) but from all I heard and read, in practice it is pretty ornamental. That being said, when we were setting up for the slab floor, I couldn't stand not running a pipe up to the fireplace just in case I changed my mind. I formed out a small box in the center front of the firebox (deeper than the inlet pipe) the size of a firebrick so I could go either way with it. (the last five feet of pipe is fireproof in case hot ashes got in there somehow) We ended up keeping the box open and we put a grate on top. Once in awhile you have to clean out ashes that fall into it. We've experimented covering the grate and leaving it open and it doesn't make a noticeable difference.
Hey, good luck. I'd love to hear how it progresses.