I’m buying a house with a chimney problem. As you can see in the photo, bricks are falling out and mortar is loose or gone. A mason indicated the cause was a newer boiler (higher efficiency, lower stack temps) causing flue gases to condense on the unlined flue. Essentially rotting out from the inside.
He gave a price of $5K-$6K to demo down to roof deck, install stainle$$ steel flue liner, and rebuild chimney. There are 3 clay flues; and access is good. Pitch is walkable 5:12. Height of chimney to be re-built is 5′
Does this estimate sound reasonable? Anyone out there tackle these jobs and have advice?
Thanks.
Edited 6/14/2002 5:02:30 PM ET by Stray
Replies
Well first off, I don't know if I would be as much concerned about price as I would to get a quality job so as not to burn my house down. Your chimney now is basically just an accident waiting to happen. I'm surprised it doesn't leak water too!
That being said. That sounds like a fair price to me if its an all-encompassing job. Remember he has to lift all those bricks to the roof and set up scaffolding and all the fun stuff that relates to brick-laying up in the air.
I laid up my own 28' chimney and I can say its no picnic. I would have paid just to have someone get the 141 lb flue liner segments (all 12 of them) up to the roof for me. I probably won't build another chimney for quite some time...
Make sure the guy has references, assure he'll do everything he said he would and book him now before the summer rains so you can have your fireplace by this fall and winter.
Mike
Next time rent a telescopic forklift, that way you can get all that stuff up there and have a flat place to work/stand with a simple pull of a lever.
The first time I read this I thought you were saying the new liner is only going in above the roof, the part that is being rebuilt. I hope that's not true.
Maybe I'm missing something but I see 3 terra cotta flue liners.
I hope the mason who inspected this did an internal inspection on the furnace flue liner and can show you exactly where it is damaged. In order for flue gases to destroy the bricks it must be coming out somewhere other then the top.
Otherwise this is an original piss poor job that was never maintained.
IMHO this looks like a job that should have been repointed 10 years ago, but now needs rebuilding. Check with a heating contractor for the correct flue size and if it needs changing run a SS liner.
well, the nomenclature is a little funny.. but it isn't an "unlined flue".. it has clay flue liners.. so his reasoning is bogus...the condensate didn't do that to the chimney... rainwater and freeze-thaw did..
this is just a chimney that wasn't maintained and water got into it and accelerated the process...
get another price from a recomended mason....
if it were mine , i'd rebuild from the roof up with hardfired brick and clay flues sized for the equipment.... i'd also put a cap on it ... probably bluestone.. to give some more protection
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
GEOB21 and Mike,
Yes, I guess I said that wrong. There are indeed terra cotta liners.
Do I understand correctly that as long as the existing liners are in good shape that the condensation shouldn't affect them? (ie maybe it's an external decay only).
Boiler guy says the unit is about 80% efficient (Weil McClain 1994, fuel oil). I've heard of the condensation problem before, but I always figured it was more to do with the really high efficiency stuff (like a 90%+ furnaces and such).
IF I can get away without doing the liner, I think I save $2K off the quote. However the mason's take on this is there's no time like the present (when the thing's half torn out) to do the liner, and future heating equipt will be even more efficient down the line...
Stray,
I don't know anything about chimneys, but reading this thread tells me you need a second opinion. The above posts indicate that the guy you are dealing with might not understand the situation. If he doesn't understand it, is he competent to fix it?
Or maybe he does understand it, but he's trying to sell you unneeded work.
Get another quote.
Rich Beckman
all i know is the equipment is rated for a certain size flue....lining it with SS doesn't do anything that i can think of... IE: if it calls for an 8" flue.... then 8" clay or 8" SS is all the same to me...
if the condensate can't get thru the clay flue liners, then it is NOT the cause of the mortar failing.....looks more like the old cracked cap letting in rainwater... freeze/thaw... more rainwater....freeze/thaw.....yada, yada, yada..
some of the power vent equipment requires small diameter flue... but really, it depends on the boiler mfr. to size the flue...
this is NOT an outside wall chimney... it's a center chimney.. so the flues should be warmer than exterior wall chimneys and the draw should be good.. draw is a function of draft, flue size, temperature of the flue gas, etc. so the same size SS. will have a slightly better draft than the same size clay... but not enough to change just for change....
now..if you have 8" flue and the mfr. wants 6".. then the SS. liner can be inserted in the existing for better draft... but that is NOT why the chimeny is falling apart...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"if the condensate can't get thru the clay flue liners..."
Mike,
I hear you about size of liner etc..., but the clay liners are porous. As I understand it, when you put in newer, more efficient, furnaces and vent through the same old chimney, the flue gases are much cooler than the older inefficient furnace. With cooler flue temps, the portion of the chimney outside the walls/roof doesn't get hot enough to vaporize the H2O from the flue gas and it just condenses on the inside of the flue. If you have caustic water running down clay liners, I think the clay (by it's very nature an absorbant, porous material) will wick the stuff into itself and the mortar/block/brick it's in contact with. By lining w/ stainless you make an impervious barrier.
Am I all wet on this theory? (been known to happen before....)
You are close. The 90% furance/boilers have a low flue gas temp. The gases condense with water and create an acid (I think sulfric acid) that eats masonry similar to acid rain. Lining the chimmey with stainless steel is the only way to go.
whadda i no ?... fired clay flue liners are the standard.. and they've been subjected to acid water for two hundred years....
i'd be concerned with size...or let the mason show you the fired clay flue liners are deteriorated... fire clay is fire clay.. wether it's fire brick or flue liners..
or let 'em quote chapter & verse from the boiler mfr's lit. that says SS is recommended over fire clay..
as to the chimney shown in your pic...... the new boiler had nothing to do with the chimney failing.... it's a classic example of rain /freeze/thaw.. due to lack of maintenance..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/15/2002 9:24:28 PM ET by Mike Smith
Mike, I have to agree with you. He did say that the boiler was an 80% efficient model. Flue gas temperature and condensation should not be a problem. 90+ models do have a lot of condensation, but it is ussually recovered at the unit. if his boiler does not have a second fan unit for flue gas exhaust, then condensation is not the problem.
Still might want to check the clay liner by popping off the rain hood and taking a look see for cracks etc.
poor past maintenance is you problem. Take Mike's advice.
Dave
Mike,
You are giving bad advice and it could imjure or kill someone.
As several have noted, the high efficiency boilers (and furnaces) produce low temp flue gases with high acidity which destroy clay flue liners AND the mortar in between them. If the boiler starts prodcuing excessive CO, it can maim or kill.
"or let 'em quote chapter & verse from the boiler mfr's lit. that says SS is recommended over fire clay."
If it is a high efficiency boiler, the manufacturer's installation instructions specifically require metal flue liners (the type varies) and the odds are high local building codes require it as well. The installer screwed up. It won't be a "recommendation." It will be a requirement!
Again, Mike, you really need to learn that you don't know what the heck you're talking about here and, in this case, your "advice" can hurt or kill people.
BTW, clay flue liners do not meet the ASTM standards for flues for combustion devices. They are, however, grandfathered. If they were a new product, they wouldn't be allowed to be used to vent combustions devices.
Finally, as a home inspector who sees this kind of thing regularly, I can't tell from the picture to degree to which the current condition is from deferred maintainence and from the incorrect venting. I suspect both.
Bob: BS...i'll go with the mfr. of the equipment... and the clay flue liner is no more going to let flue gases into the house that any other correctly installed flue liner.
When the heating contractor who sells me the equipment says i need a SS. flue liner, that is when it will go in.. not when some mason who incorrectly diagnosed the cause of the chimney failure says so.
and the last time someone told me i was endangering someone elses life with my advice , they were all wet too. My advice stands.... check with the mfr. to find out what they want.. and keep the water out of the chimney....
All combustion equip. comes with UL testing requirements and the mfr . will tell you what is required, or the heating sub, who's license is on the line will tell you....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Bob and others,
No matter how the actual flue design is determined, as I said in my first post, that poor chimney needs some serious work! You know that thing has to leak water too. Looks like you could just push bricks out wherever you wanted doesn't it?
Mike
Mike:
QUOTE
Condensation Problems
In the Chimney
Condensation in the chimney is another possible problem. The lower flue temperature achieved by the improved efficiency of today’s heating equipment has created the possibility of another problem—damage caused by condensation inside a chimney, particularly a masonry chimney located on the outside wall where it is chilled by exposure to outside air. Look for a white, powdery efflorescence on the outside of the chimney, spalling or flaking of the bricks, crumbling mortar joints, wet patches on inside walls behind the chimney, pieces of tile at the bottom of the chimney, and water running out of the cleanout door or around the bottom of the chimney behind the furnace. The most common cause of all of these problems is condensation inside a cold chimney. Water vapour is produced when oil or natural gas is burned, but humid house air drawn into the chimney also contributes to the problem. Another cause of condensation is that the new, more efficient furnaces need smaller chimneys than the 200 mm x 200 mm (8 in. x 8 in.) flue tile that has been standard for many years. Because of this, the combustion gases, already cooled by the improved heat exchangers in the furnace, rise slowly in the cold, oversized flue where they are sometimes cooled to the dew point of the water vapour they contain. The resulting condensation can then leak into the bricks and cause structural or water damage. If this is caught in time, there are simple remedies. Some solutions to these problems are described in Chapter 7.
ENDQUOTE
http://energy-publications.nrcan.gc.ca/pub/home/Heating_With_Gas_Section4.cfm
Edited 6/16/2002 3:06:02 PM ET by Bob Walker
Edited 6/16/2002 3:10:33 PM ET by Bob Walker
well, bob.. that's cool.. 'course.. this example is a center chimney and i already addressed that... ie: this one is going to operate at a higher temp. than an outside chimney.. and anytime u want to say maybe i didn't endanger someone's life would be ok with me...
if u want to spend the time reading my posts u cud refute the specific things i said that were wrong... but maybe u don't ....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike-
I have read every entry of this thread and agree with your assesment. In no way could any information given here, if read correctly, endanger a sole. On the other hand if those reading do not understand what is written then they should contract for a professional to expain the information for a charge.
Paying a mason to explain the venting needs of a high efficiency furnace is like having a proctologist do your brain surgery, But for some this may seem logical, go figure?
Please don't let facts stand in the way of a good thread.
"this example is a center chimney and i already addressed that... "
Although it is true that condensation problems are more likely on an exterior chimney, it doesn't mean they can't happen on an interior chimney.
I look down a chimney or 2 every day, and test flue drafting once or twice every week.
I see plenty of central chimneys with condensation problems where an 80+ gas furnace has been installed and vented into a masonry chimney. I also see plenty of 80+ furnmaces installed without a metal flue liner with insuffient draft per published standards.
There is NO WAY any one can tell by the posted picture whether the clay flue liner has been damaged. Your position is based on some common misperceptions.
My position is based on the results of a couple of thousand inspections, field testing and numerous courses.
WOW.... Bob thats great!
Inspecting thousands of chimneys and seeing lots of bad installations proves the point.
Knowing a few (is that more then 2 but less then 10?)masons that actually know the draft requirements of the hundreds of 80+ furnaces on the market aint cutting it in the real world, Bud. I would much rather trust the furnaces manufacturer of the flue specs then some duct tape finger wrapped engineer. Are you so obtuse to think that a mason knows more then the furnace manufacturer?
Hoping you have lots and lots of liability insurance if you do this as a vocation.
"the furnaces manufacturer of the flue specs "
The gas furnace manufacturers aways reference the GAMA specs. If you read the GAMA specs, they specifically discliam whether those sepcs will actually work.
So, no I don't trust the maunfacturers specs. I test to see whether the unit is actually performing as intended. Following specs usually works, but it doesn't always. Also, in my area, local codse used to reguire adding a vent liner for exterior chimneys, but not interior. Recently changed to require it for all 80+ unit installs. I don't know why they made the change, but it was a smart move.
BTW, your message basically said you would never believe a mason who had actually been there, and, based on one photo of the outside of the chimney you could determine that there was nothing dangerous.
What do you do for a living? What is your source of knowledge on these matters. I asked once before.
This is what I do for a living and I feel I may have something to contribue here, so:
I never presume to know more than any manufacturer so I always ask questions about size of flue requirements. If a manufacturer designs an 8" output I can only assume that they want an 8" flue.
There are some good inspectors and some bad inspectors and some right out of college who go by the book and don't know diddley about sizing flues. One guy insisted that I could only use the volume of round in my calculations. IE, round hole thru square tile, only round area counted, resulting in oversized flue
There is no decent Stainless Steel flue on the market for $100.00 nope, nada, no f.......... way Be careful of someone who says there is
The chimney has obviously not been maintained, but irregardless of how and why it's gotten to this point, it needs work. Which is, tear down to under roofline, reline furnace flue with stainless steel liner, (quality only please), rebuild, reflash, (no aluminum, please), and pour a new crown.
Sometimes it is better to take down and rebuild rather than to try and save $$ by repointing.
To Keith C, if you can do as good a quality job as I can (which I doubt because aren't you the guy who was going to throw in a 100 dollar liner) then I could keep you busy all year round and I could go to Florida for the winter. Something you'll eventually learn is that you should never "throw in" anything that is a valuable part of the job. The more you give away the more you devalue yourself and your trade
Bottom line five - six thousand is not out of line if it gets you a rebuild, SS liner, and reflashing. If you think otherwise you're not a mason and don't have any business trying to guesstimate what we should earn.
Trying to be real, hope it helps. Rod
I'm ready to retire after long and fullfilling career as a builder. Rebuilding chimneys is just part of what I do, I'm not a one trick pony.
That being said, unless you have to airlift the brick in from Italy, then someone is payng to much, and some mason is making WAY to much. This is still only a 1 day job for a mason and tender.
My supply house only stocks one liner, they only sell one liner. It's a corrugated SS unit that comes coiled, it slips down, bends through the thimble and hooks to the unit. What does a better one do and what makes it better?
Take a good look at the picture. I see six bricks across, meaning 24 bricks a course assuming the chimney is square. Based on the info provided ( 5 foot rebuild ), let me do the math for you, 540 brick for the chimney, another 70 or so if you take it below the roof. A bit more than 3 straps.
If your supplier only stocks one liner, look for another supplier. They don't have you by the short hairs. There are better suppliers out there with better products that will ship right to your door. Stainless steel liners come in many different shapes and sizes, round, oval, and rectangular. Look for 316 SS.
S S liners for woodstoves should be insulated with a wool blanket or light weight mortar. Can your supplier offer these?
What type of flashing do you do/use. How do you install it? Lead coated copper for me. Soldered on 4 corners. Rolled lead for flashing and counter flashing, thru pan style.
Taking down a 600 brick chimney without destroying any property is a feat in itself. Then you have to (most of the time) get rid of it. Do you not get paid for the time you spend doing this? Would you ask your mechanic/dentist/psychiatrist to only charge you for an hour if they have spent 2 hours on you? What do you think their response would be? Is that light bulb coming on yet?
Setting up a safe staging area takes time if done properly. And the first time you feel like you're sliding of the roof, you'll then decide that forever after it will be done properly.
Also when your putting up staging, don't put any nail holes in the roof.
So, after you set up staging, teardown the chimney, rebuild the chimney, reflash the chimney, pour a new crown, install the liner, hook the furnace back up, now you've got to take down the staging, load the truck, do a final cleanup, go home and unload the truck. And , oh yeah, you still have to get rid of those 600 or so brick from the old chimney.
I don't know about you, but every hour of my time is valuable. I've put in over 20 years learning my trade , (18th Century restoration/replication is my specialty) and have paid my dues. Every hour I spend on a job should be compensated for.
In your defense, your 1 day is probably different than mine. Years ago I made a concious decision to work no more than 8-9 hrs. a day. That's it, that's enough. The bottom line really doesn't seem to suffer and I get the benefit of spending more time doing other stuff.
If you really think you can do this in one day I would sure hate to be your tender. But more importantly I would not want to be your customer. Do you go to Quick Lube? In and out in under 15 minutes? No thanks, for me, take all the time you need, just do it once, do it right, and treat me fairly.
You could do this njob for $4000.00. If it's done correctly there's no way in hell you'll put $3000.00 in your pocket. Notice I said if it's done correctly.
I also am not a one trick pony. I have been subbed out on building timber frames to installing cherry kitchens. A master at none but good enough to make a living. I know, good enough has different connotations for different people. But if I make a mistake, it's at my cost, so I do relatively few although I may take a bit longer to make a cut or to line up crown . Do it once, do it right.
Case closed. Rod
Edited 6/19/2002 6:04:49 PM ET by master of none
Edited 6/19/2002 6:10:53 PM ET by master of none
Excellent post, Rod. I learned a few things. I do want to quibble about one teensy little thing, in your earlier post. You said that the chimney is in this condition, and let's get on with the repairs. Fair enough. But I think it is worth knowing how it got to its current condition.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that is wasn't important to know why it got the way it did. Of course it's important. And you can talk to 20 experts ( or supposed experts) and get 20 different scenarios of why, how, etc. I tend to push past the rhetoric, and get on with it, shall we............. Thanks for your comments.
Rod
This looks like a standard 3 flue chimney to me. Square? No way. This thing is 2 or 2-1/2 brick wide. 5/12 pitch...walkable. Arrive at 7:30, scaffold up by 8:30, chimney down to roof by 9:30 in the back of my dump trailer. By 10:30 I'm laying brick, and dropping in flue tiles. By noon, I'm closing in on the top. A few hours later, I've topped it out, and capped it. Raked out for counterflash while I was down a roof level. Snake down the flue liner, hook it up to furnace 1/2 hour. Home by 5.
Next morning, go counterflash, tear down scaffold and away we go. Bricks come out of the trailer into the ravine on my land....10 minutes tops.
Copper and lead flashing....nope, coated tin or aluminum. Flue liners are $100 for a 6" round. Brick are $400/m .
Do I build them to last a lifetime...yep, mine anyway. Forever...no, and nobody wants to pay for something that will last forever....doesn't make good business sense.
Do I build them for a lifetime? Yep, mine anyway.
Sounds like a "looks good from my house" type of mentality.
Take another look at the picture. The flues look to be set back a bit from the edge, kinda center like of a square chimney. And I'm not wearing glasses yet.
Anyhow, this is all semantics.
There is room for you and I in the same business, we just attract different customers.
Why would you rake out for flashing as you're building instead of doing it to the best of your ability?
Or are you?
I still think your time frame is way out of wack, it's absolutely best case scenario, even if it was only 2.5 bricks deep. We all know, or should have learned by now, it never goes as quick as you think.
I calls it as I sees it.
And I stand by my previous posts.
If you want a good job, like anything, make sure your talking about apples and apples.
Aluminum, no way. Coated tin, c'mon for Christ sakes.
Repectfully, Keith, I can only agree to disagree.
Besides, you could be someone who can be supplying me with future work! Like the car manufacturers, planned obsolesence.
Maybe I'll see ya in Florida.
Chow Rod
Are you the one that is bidding this job? I don't want to step on toes or underbid you. I think you may be overqualified for this job though. It doesn't look to be 18th century. Looks more like 1960's to me, concete cap and all. I don't think we have any 18th century stuff in Ohio either.....least not any that needs restored....that was indian times....they didn't do brick work.....hell, I don't think they built for that matter.......I should know this stuff, I'm a good 1/2 Cherokee.
Has anyone thought to consider that maybe it wasn't flue gases , but rather the fact that when they boys were laying this thing up that they ran a touch short on the portland and threw in a few more shovels of sand to stretch the mix a bit(c'mon guys let's get this thing to the top today, the roofers are coming tomorrow)? When whole bricks are missing and complete bed and head joints, it seems there was a bond problem, and strength problem as well.............
No, I'm not bidding it. It would be a hell of a commute from Connecticut. I don't bid jobs at all. Hourly rate for as long as it takes, plus materials. No lack of paying customers, willing to wait . I am overqualified now, (ahem, as I pat myself on my back) but certainly wasn't 20 years ago. Learned a bit since then.
On another note, my wifes grandfather was 3/4 Indian. Cherokee I beleive. A fine man, he was.
Rod
I appreciate all the posts.
The chimney is rectangular, probably the 2.5 bricks or so width as suggested.
Built in 1950's
RE the SS liners, does anyone have a specific manufacturer they use? I'm curious what I get with a SS liner for $2K that I don't get with the $100 liner. Is it the difference between a 10 yr life span and a 30yr life span? (If tht's the case, couldn't I install three $100 liners over the next 30 years and still come out ahead????).
Thanks.
The type of flue liner you need depends on the type fuel: I think you said fuel oil so you don;t want the $100 stuff.
Stray,
I use Lindemann Chimney Supply @ 1-877-722-7230 in Albany ,NY or 1-800-722-7230 in Lake Bluff, IL . In New York talk to a guy by the name of Chuck Phillips. He'll tell you what you want to know, need to know, should know, and then some about SS liners.They have a web site also: http://www.LindemannChimney.com
Did the mason really say it was going to be $2000.00 for just the liner?
You've got to ask yourself if you want it done half-assed or to code. Not that by code is always right, but it's certainly better'n half-assed. And remember, if it's not to code, and a problem arises in the future, it's the mason's #### if it's not done right. Some chose to take that chance, others prefer not to.
Still, $2000.00 is a bit high just for installing a liner.
Rod
I've been enjoying the snot out of this thread guys so thanks for all the fun. I can't keep my big mouth out of it though, no matter how hard I try.
This is a case where everybody's mostly right and partly wrong. Except Keith. He's mostly wrong and partly right. Keith, I'm sorry for your customers but that aluminum flashing won't last your lifetime - that is unless you plan to fall off the roof on your head or your tender kills you for working him to death. I've replaced plenty of flashings like you would install. There's a good six hours of flashing work in this thing and I've done hundreds when I was roofing. Like the man said, It always takes longer on second glance...and you are definmitely not going to mix enough lightweight to pack the SS liner with only a couple bags.
I'm not a mason but I hire good ones on most jobs, and I've laid enough brick and block to pass. I built my own chimney and retopped a couple of others. I don't work on ranches but do restoration/remodel on classic, vintage homes, sometimes with three or four chimneys as much as sixty feet high, and on steep roofs. We've had many chimneys retopped with clay liners (for fireplaces only) and five to seven grand is about the right price, depending... It takes close to a week to set up staging, tear down and clean up, stock the job, build it up, flassh with lead, retop it after cure, wash and seal, clean the job up, and say thanks for the work.
Mike is right that the main reason this chimney is poor is that it hasn't been maintained but he is wrong to assume that the increased sulfuric acid is not hurting the liner. Bob W knows that it CAN hurt but he assumes that it is likely to be hurting it. I don't believe that in only eight years this is the reason for the condition of these brick though so my instincts are with Mike. Both of you could stand to calm down about it. Mike Smith is looking at the exterior of the chimney from his base of experience and Walker is looking up from the Mechanical end of it with his base o experience.
A SS liner is cheap insurance so put it in but it will cost more like $450 plus the time to do it and the packing around it inside the existing clay. We had one done on a retop with new furnace. The mason said that his SS guy wanted 1700 bucks to install it and that he could get the SS liner for under 700 and install for 600 so he would do it himself instead of subbing it out. I htink this included a cap on this single flue chimney. If I remember right, the total on that job was about $5800. Hard access to roof too.
One reason for hiogh installled cost of retrofit SS liners is the liability insurance. There are things that can go wrong so a specialty contractor working on bid is going to caver his butt.
I think that if the mason for the original poster has good references and insurances, he has made a good estimate and a good, conservative recommendation.
Repointing might be an option for a DIY with a tight budget and a high tolerance for risk so even that suggestion was partly right...Excellence is its own reward!
"Mike is right that the main reason this chimney is poor is that it hasn't been maintained but he is wrong to assume that the increased sulfuric acid is not hurting the liner. Bob W knows that it CAN hurt but he assumes that it is likely to be hurting it. I don't believe that in only eight years this is the reason for the condition of these brick though so my instincts are with Mike. .... Mike Smith is looking at the exterior of the chimney from his base of experience and Walker is looking up from the Mechanical end of it with his base o experience."
I'm also looking at the original message: "A mason indicated the cause was a newer boiler (higher efficiency, lower stack temps) causing flue gases to condense on the unlined flue. Essentially rotting out from the inside."
Someone who could well have the expertise to diagnose the problem has looked at it in person and made a diagnosis. That is worth one heck of a lot more than diagnosis from 1 picture.
Also, the amount of effloresence supports that diagnosis, in my opinion. At least in my area, that amount of effloresence on a chimeny results from large amounts of condensation of flue gas getting out of the clay flue liner and into the brick veneer. I have never seen that much effloresence on a chimney from water penetration, but have read that it might happen in other climates.
"Both of you could stand to calm down about it."
You're right! OTOH, IMO, based on the picture alone, for someone to say "it can't be flue gas" is (i) unsupportable, and (ii) thus dangerous.
Edited 6/23/2002 2:49:03 AM ET by Bob Walker
A week? Are you nuts?????? This chimney is approx 48" x 20". The step flashing will stay intact, you will brick up behind it and recounterflash with coated tin, then coat the tin with fibrious. The liners in this part of the country are NOT bedded in lightweight anything, nor is that code here. A week to build , tear down stock......how old are you and how slow do you move? You do know that Waco makes steel scaffold that has leveler legs and 6' sections right? Do you own planks? drop cloths? You don't build your own scaffold do you?
Mostly wrong.....I don't take offense, cause I don't see where you are anymore qualified than my mailman to make those kind of statements.
This chimney was poor craftsmanship, and poor maintenance to not see that it needed help 20 years ago. I seriously doubt it rotted from the inside out.
I want my product to last and be a good value for my customer. I've had old men when I was in my middle years chew me out for trying to close the sale by saying"this will last for a century" If they are 60, and it last for 40 years, they got their monies worth.
This project is like a roof, it's basic and besides keeping you dry, it serves no enjoyable functional value. You can spend $30.00/square on classics, or $50/sq on architecturals, and they will do the exact same thing, shed water. They will have a slightly different look, enjoyed by your neighbors who have too look at them, and you as you drive down the street to your house.It may look good, but you just can't enjoy it like a hot tub or new family room. The only one that will get enjoyment out of it is the mason who rapes the homeowner out of 5-6K for a job that should cost half that.
Looking at this chimney, and 5/12 roof, what kind of house do you expect this is? Is it the type that you would blow 6K on a Ferrari chimney on? Built in the 50's, do you know it probably cost twice that to build new? Do you realize that if your rotting theory is right that it should be rotted well below roof level, letting water leak into every room that this chimney has penetrated?
Through my career, and the only career I've ever had, never worked for anyone else, in any other field. Never gone bankrupt, ever failed to pay a monthly bill , ever stiff a supplier. I've managed to accumulate alot, rentals, beach property, acreage here, 3 kids, one wife and a company with a great reputation that I alone started, and will pass down. I've done this by not overselling jobs, or ripping folks off. I look in horror at the "what do you make thread" at the wages some make. It's sad.
The homeowner has the right idea here. Snake a new $100 liner down it every 8 years, repoint it and save yourself $5k, put it into a pool or hot tub, you'll enjoy it much more.
"I don't take offense, cause I don't see where you are anymore qualified than my mailman to make those kind of statements."
Your mailman probably doesn't oversee remodel and restoration jobs up to $380,000.00 on high end homes, does he? I'm not basing the times on my old man speed but on what I've seen several different masonry crews spend on similar projects.
But I take no offense either. I realize that there is a market for your kind of work, just as there is for mine.
Excellence is its own reward!
See Piff, again, you are one of the overqualified for this job! It's not a classic or a high end, it's an average or below. Look in the corner of the pic(alot less that 5/12) more like 3/12. There are less than 400 brick here, and I'm sure it's not 60' up.And if I paid you $60.00, then you would have $360 in wages to flash a 20" x 48" chimney, OUCH.
I build houses primarily. I'm not hung up on the costs, the glitz or the social credentials of my clients. I'll do brick and stone exteriors or vinyl and aluminum, I'll lay tile floors or $10/yd vinyls also. I've built $600/k and 95K in the same year. I'll admit I'm more cautious and caring with the wallet of the 95K than the 600K guy though, because I know what it took for the little guy and he probably worked alot harder for his wage. Maybe that is unethical, but I'll spend a few more hours trying to save the little guy money. For some strange reason I also like working on the smaller house to, and get much more satifaction turning over the keys to it as well.
So Stray, look for the more common mason, one who doesn't specialize in high end anything,or wears their credentials on their sleeve, who gives you good value for your money, and doesn't drive a better vehicle than you. Save the $4000 and take the kids to Disneyland....you'll all feel better
If he takes a week, then you're making his new truck payment for a few months.
"The homeowner has the right idea here. Snake a new $100 liner down it every 8 years, repoint it and save yourself $5k, put it into a pool or hot tub, you'll enjoy it much more."
but:
"all oil-fired furnaces and boilers require a Type A chimney (a double-walled, insulated, prefabricated metal chimney with a stainless steel lining), a masonry chimney lined with a clay flue tile, or a certified stainless steel liner in a masonry chimney. "
http://energy-publications.nrcan.gc.ca/pub/home/Heating_With_Oil_Section7.cfm
Can you get a flue liner that meets those requirements for $100?
In my opinion, don't screw around with half-assed flue analyses or soulutions. Flues have a significant impact on the home's safety, especially (but not limited to) regarding carbon monoxide.
Carbon monoxide can kill, but it can also cause serious long term health effects if undetected (and co poisoning often is undetected.)
Will that $100 flue liner last 8 years? Will our homweowner be able to detect when it's time to replace it? Maybe he can post a photo of the outside of the chimney every year and the experts here can tell him whether the flue is safe!
But Bob , that's in Canada...the laws of physics are completely different down here. Seriously though, it even says you can use a masonry chimney with tile liners(which is how this mess started) or snake down a type L double lined. Why not do that, and repoint? Cheaper yet, why not powervent out the sidewall with PVC and just repoint the existing and forget about the liners all together?
Can you explain to me this: why do you have to put a double lined inside a non-combustable tile flue? I can see the double when going inside a wood chase or through an attic space, but inside a existing flue? I think if you ask the right people, you'll get the answer I have, that is ,singlewall is fine for inside an existing chimney with only 1 appliance going into it, and the liner hooked directly to the furnace and terminating outside a sealed chimney.
"But Bob , that's in Canada...the laws of physics are completely different down here. Seriously though, it even says you can use a masonry chimney with tile liners(which is how this mess started) or snake down a type L double lined. Why not do that, and repoint? Cheaper yet, why not powervent out the sidewall with PVC and just repoint the existing and forget about the liners all together?"
Because you can only use PVC and power vent on the 90+ and when the manufacturer specifies that use. We're talking 80+ here.
" Can you explain to me this: why do you have to put a double lined inside a non-combustable tile flue? I can see the double when going inside a wood chase or through an attic space, but inside a existing flue? I think if you ask the right people, you'll get the answer I have, that is ,singlewall is fine for inside an existing chimney with only 1 appliance going into it, and the liner hooked directly to the furnace and terminating outside a sealed chimney"
First, clay flue liners are only permitted because they've been around forever and a day; if they had just been invented, they would not pass the ASHRAE specs/requirements for flues.
Second, the key criteria here is stainless: oil heat produces hotter and more acidic flue gases than gas; vents that work for gas don't work for oil; they can't take the heat and they can't take the acidity.
Yes they do powervent less than 90's. In the early 90's we did(from the factory)And my question is why not single wall SS inside a masonry chimney?
"Yes they do powervent less than 90's."
Power vent or use a draft inducer?
I admit I'm not 100% on oil fired boilers, I don't see many. With gas fired furnaces, there are 80+ draft induced types, where the draft inducer regulates the flow of air and combustion gases through the heat exchanger, but the temp and the concentration of combustion by-products are too high to be vented through plastic or vented through side walls. On an 80+ furnace, the draft inducer does not pressurize the flue or "push" flue gases out.
With 90+ furnaces, there is a secondary heat exchanger where the water vapor in the flue gases is condensed to water, releasing a lot of BTUs, and the draft inducer pressurizes the flue and helps push the flue gases out. 90+ furnaces also have drain piping to route the condenstaion from the flue gases.
The two draft inducers look very similar, but are actually very different. Just because a gas furnace has a draft inducer does NOT mean that it can be vented through plastic or side vented. I believe the same is true for oil fired boilers, but am not completely certain.
The section I quoted allows for single wall stainless in a masonry chimney. Do you think you could line a single story house chimney with single wall stainless for $100? I don't know, but suspect not.
The key issue is the acidity of the mid and high efficiency oil fired boilers. Line that sucker with galvanized and I bet it'll be rusted through very quickly, potentially releasing flue gases (including CO) into the house.
Edited 6/23/2002 7:01:08 PM ET by Bob Walker
Not draft inducers, but power vents. We used them on quite a few gas water heaters(they came as a package), when for some reason the water heater were located in closets, seperate from the furnace(Government plans and specs, HUD houses) I'd venture to guess these could not be even 75% units.
What I'm more concerned about is the situation I'm running into, and this guy is also. We use a corrugated stainless steel flue liner, cost $100, single wall, somewhere in the range of 26Ga. 25" long ,and I'm now getting slammed saying it is cheapo. This is not dryer duct here, it is tuff stuff, and NOBODY wants to have to cut it.My question is why, and what is any better, that would justify the cost difference when used inside a clay lined masonry flue?
We have plenty of the 2 x 2 block flues around here, with the clay tile liners. When the upgrades come, they run a SS liner thru the thimble up to top, through a SS cap plate glued to the top of the clay, and cap it with a hood. Code approved in all surrounding counties, and never seen one fail.
Summit County , the most notorious bass ackwards code over enforcing counties in the state gives it the blessing.
So in your inspections, have you seen one fail, or what is the stink about them?
"Not draft inducers, but power vents. We used them on quite a few gas water heaters(they came as a package), when for some reason the water heater were located in closets, seperate from the furnace(Government plans and specs, HUD houses) I'd venture to guess these could not be even 75% units."
Gas water heater is a tad different from an oil fired boiler. Do they use them on boilers up there? According to a Bacharach CO course I just took, the water heater power vents accomplish their goals by diluting the flue gases by some huge proportion. Start doing that with a boiler and seems to me you'll be moving some serious air out of the house just to get the flue gases out. Penny wise and pound foolish?
"What I'm more concerned about is the situation I'm running into, and this guy is also. We use a corrugated stainless steel flue liner, cost $100, single wall, somewhere in the range of 26Ga. 25" long ,and I'm now getting slammed saying it is cheapo."
Is that $100 for 25" or 25'? Hey, if they can do stainless for $100, go for it. Again, I rarely see that stuff so I don't have direct experience. I got the impression that something less than stainless was being proposed.
"Paying a mason to explain the venting needs of a high efficiency furnace is like having a proctologist do your brain surgery, But for some this may seem logical, go figure?"
I know some masons whio are very knowledgable about venting, chimneys is what they do for a living. Other's don't know much; veneer brick walls &/or block walls is what they do.
Listening to opinions on these issues from someone on the internet with only a "handle" and no identifying information and no disclosure of the basis for those opinions makes a lot less sense to me: e.g
"I have read every entry of this thread and agree with your [Mike's] assesment. In no way could any information given here, if read correctly, endanger a sole."
Where are you? I'll do it all for $4000, I'll throw in the stainless flue liner for free. Re-stepflash and counterflash the chimney too. I'll bring my own brick, sand ,mortar and flue tiles and scaffold.
What do we have here, 3 strap of brick, 6 clay flue tiles, 2 bags mortar, couple hundred pounds of sand and a $100 SS liner + labor(6 hours, 2 guys) and $3000 left over for my pocket.
Hi Stray.
Clay flue liners are the norm in my area as well. Been around a long, long, time. Unless they have somehow gotten cracked, they are fine. Normally, SS Flue liners are installed in chimneys that have no existing flue liner. It's much easier, and cheaper to install a metal flue liner, than to tear out the brick and install clay liners.
Do you need a liner? Doesn't look like you do. You have 3 of them.
Mike and others have given you good advice. TAKE IT!
As for your mason guy.....$5,000? You're being taken to the cleaners! Your brick from the roofline up needs repointed!
No wonder he wants to book you right away for the summer....he found a "fish" on his line and wants to reel YOU in.
Look elsewhere! Ask a HVAC pro to check out your HVAC equipment and ask if he feels your liners are adequately sized. If not, ask him what he recommends.
Someone said a SS flue liner costs around $100. He is right! That is not a lot of money compared to $5,000! SOOO, even if you want the darn SS liner installed, materials and labor should only cost around $350 - $500.
AS for repointing brick, new replacement brick should run you somewhere around 80 cents a piece, and the labor would be a day to 1-1/2 days depending upon roof height/scaffolding needed, etc. Heck, say 2 days labor....for 1 mason only. Add the cost of a day laborer too. NOW YOU TELL ME.....does that add up to $5,000.
If in your mind it does...please call me when you need some framing/remodeling work......I'll bring my fishing pole along too!
Davo
Looks like my chimeny. Only not quite as bad.
The mason who's gonna do mine says that it's a days work. (that includes replacing all of the fire brick in the fireplace)
I've got one advantage, I'll have a telescopic forklift with a work platform on it so the bricks, mortor, flues etc. go up in a simple pull of the lever.
Now my house is pretty big so in order to get up there I'll have to use the 56 foot forklift. while I won't leave tracks on the driveway, if it was grass, I'd have to spend a weekend hauling black dirt and planting grass seed filling the ruts it would leave.
Hi Stray.
Got another question for you.... are you familiar with venting options associated with high efficiency furnaces?
Ask your HVAC pro whether or not you can vent your boiler unit via PVC pipe out the nearest sidewall instead of venting up through the chimney. If the answer is yes, find out the cost and weigh the cost difference.
Most high efficiency furnaces that I'm familiar with (forced air, gas fired units) have a small condensate line attached to a small pump, and this condensate is directed to the city sewer line. Gas flues that do not change into condensate, but instead remain in the combustion chamber, are then vented out via the PVC pipe route.. PVC is used as the "chimney" because these flue temps are way cooler than what a normal furnace would put out. These flue gases don't rely on normal drawing techniques imposed by regular chimneys; these gases are forced out the pipe through mechanical means (blower fans etc.) This pipe stays cool to the touch, and, unlike wood burning stove type flue pipes, no protective heat shields need be installed at the through wall connection.
The only questions you need be concerned with when contemplating this is...."Can my furnace unit be set up to vent in this fashion, and if so, then how difficult will it be to run this venting pipe from unit to the outside?"
Many high efficiency type furnaces also bring in outside combustion air via a second PVC tube through the sidewall. If you happen to see two, 3inch dia PVC pipes sticking out the side of a basement wall of a home some where, it's a pretty safe bet they have a high efficiency furnace installed.
People that go this route can eliminate the chimney altogether....knock off the brick down to roof level and cap it off.....BUT THIS CAN NOT BE DONE IF THE CHIMNEY IS SUPPORTING ADDITIONAL FLUES FOR OTHER THINGS (such as a working fireplace, and or gas fired hot water tank, etc.) Since your chimney has more than 1 flue, you don't want to eliminate the chimney, but by venting your furnace out a sidewall, you can prevent destruction to the existing clay flue liners that you suspect will /are being damaged by your furnace's gas flue temps. I personally don't think it affects a clay liner, but do not know for certain. I do know gas flue temps/acidity can affect some brick mortars and cause it to crumble over time, but from looking at your chimney photo, I agree with Mike that it appears ( at the very least) that lack of preventative maintenance (repointing old brick) is more the cause of your problem than any cause/efffects resulting from a newly installed boiler unit.
Also, lots of gas fired hot water tanks are tapped into the same chimney flue as your furnace. There are other ways to vent a hot water tank as well, so if your HWT is tied in with your furnace, I still recommend you contact an HVAC pro and discuss optional venting solutions before giving the "go ahead" to your mason buddy.
By opting for this route, all you would need done to your chimney is to have the mason repoint your brickwork (and install a few new brick where needed). The clay flue liners stay intact, untouched.... your furnace worries are over, and your wallet will thank you tremendously!!
LOL
Davo
ok an hr to read all the string 25$ 4 days to rebuild the chimminey with double ss in 2 flues and triple for the fire place and steppflash and counter flash with copper add new drafts and flue and do a very through sweep and inspection .3500.00$
travel to OH. for a week and spend 3 days in sandusky to spend my 1500 profit in the summer Priceless!
When can I start. Use the stainless use the copper get another estimate.!!!
Edited 6/23/2002 11:01:15 PM ET by Joe