chimney lining in 1832 farmhouse
dreadlock
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
The previous owner retucked brick on fireplace and placed new terra cotta insert up to second floor but never finished. Wanting to install wood stove in fireplace opening with chimney insert. Does pipe need to be insulated? Trying to slip down thru terra cotta rather than bust out, since house and brick is so old and brittle. Stove requires 6 inch and would not leave enough room for insulating liner. Have gotten two opinions from experienced stove contractors, one says it needs to be insulated, the other says it’s not necessary. Are there safety concerns with non insulated? Any other ideas?
Replies
If the unlined part of the chimney is in reasonably good shape, there is no need to insulate the metal liner if it is listed as being approved for a wood burner.
"Reasonably good shape" would mean that, even though there may be some deterioration of mortar joints, the chimney is structurally sound, i.e., it won't fall down in a storm. With the liner in place, the masonry will not need to contain smoke or sparks. The masonry chimney will become essentially a chase in which to run the metal liner, and it will also provide thermal separation between framing materials and the new metal liner.
In other words, if the original masonry was able to contain the smoke, flame, sparks, etc. of the original wood burning fixture, it will have no problem containing the new metal flue, unless there has been serious deterioration or damage to the masonry itself.
The reason for insulating a metal flue liner inside a masonry chimney is not to control heat transfer to combustables, but to keep the inside of the liner warm which reduces creosote buildup.copper p0rn
That would certainly be the case if the manufacturer of the liner calls for it.
?copper p0rn
Thanks for your response. I know that the chimney is not in the best shape but would be fine for combustability issues since the only framing is the roof rafters and the floor joist. the rest of the house is 3 brick thick.
thanks again
Mark Russo
Washington pa
Custom woodworking and residential contracting
What you do want to avoid is having creosote run down the inside of the flue pipe, through the joints between sections of pipe and into the space between the pipe and chimney liner, where it cools and solidifies. If a chimney fire gets started and sets that stuff on fire, it can be a lot of creosote to get rid of.
<<Thanks for your response. I know that the chimney is not in the best shape but would be fine for combustability issues since the only framing is the roof rafters and the floor joist. the rest of the house is 3 brick thick.>> Lining the chimney is to stop poisonous gases from killing you in your sleep! A brick home can just as easily kill you as anything else. Line it
regardless of the insulated or uninsulated question. I don't think you've given enough information for us to judge whether it needs to be insulated or not.
My guess is no insulated liner required. But the BO will tell you, if you care to see him (technically it would require a permit, but the cost/hastle may be minimal).
The purpose of the insulation is to keep the flue gases hot and prevent condensation inside your metal pipe.
If the chimney is not on an exterior wall, you might get away without insulating.
If the chimney has any sides exposed to the outdoors, then you will have problems.
You need to contact the stove insert manufacturer, tell them about the site conditions and ask for an approved solution.
You can do this but might need to clean it more often.
Another option would be to have a Golden Flue poured. This is a bladder of air to maintain the shape while grout is pumped into the chimney. After it kicks, the bladder is deflated and you have a fully sealed flue the right size.
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Many years back in an old FHB issue I recall reading about a chimney lining technique that involved the hanging of a rope with a bell contraption on the end placed down the chimney.
It was pulled up while being rung as a cementous mixture was poured above it.
The vibrations of the ringing bell kept the mixture flowing to the sides of the chimney forming a liner as the bell was bought up to the top.
Have you ever actually seen this process or viewed the results of such?
I can't remember the name of that outfit. I think they're long out of business. It worked like a concrete vibrator and packed the lining mixture. I considered buying a franchise. Ahrens, maybe?
I found it:
http://www.ahrenschimney.com/commercial.htmlcopper p0rn
So you saw one in operation of being performed but decided not to pursue a franchise.
Didn't think well enough of the process?
Edited 10/1/2009 6:53 pm ET by rez
Didn't think well enough of the process?
Couldn't make the numbers line up. This was around '80. They wanted $20K for the franchise and then another $12-$15K for the equipment. Had to buy the liner mortar and the ceramic coating material from them at what I perceived to be excessive prices and IIRC, there was a warrantee fee for each job - no matter how big or small - of a couple of hundred dollars.
Some of the equipment they insisted I buy from them I didn't need or already owned - roof scaffold, etc.
The franchise area was the entire state of KY and I wasn't in love with the idea of working 4 hours away in Paducah or somewhere. I just wanted central KY.
Two years after I walked away from the deal, they called me and offered me the area I wanted for about $5K, IIRC, and I could buy only the equipment I needed. But I was in the process of selling the company. Too late.
It's a very nice process and vastly superior to other re-lining options in a lot of situations. I went to someplace up around Milwaukee to watch a pour. copper p0rn
Is it an old concept revamped with modern tooling?
Just picturing some European in the 1800's tying a bell on to a rope and somehow banging away on it while someone pulls it up a chimney
I don't know about that. It is/was time tested in Europe. But I don't think it was more than 10-15 years old when they introduced it here.copper p0rn
I'd never even heard/considered the "bell" concept other than the shape placed the slurry. I think you've applied that concept yourself.copper p0rn
I think I first heard of it in something like tips and techniques way back when.
Seems I recall seeing a line drawing. The vibration of the bell is a sure thing tho'.
But it's been years and added conjecture. This thread topic got me thinking about it.
Edited 10/1/2009 7:43 pm ET by rez
no, I haven't.I did no one 20-30 years ago where I ran a SS liner, then grouted with my own mix of vermiculite and mortar.
Would not recommend that for anyone not in good shape. Hand mixing in a boat with hoe, shoveling into a five gallon bucket and climbing 28' vertical is not a great way to spend a day in hot summer sun.
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why not build a temporary ridge deck and save all the roof traffic???
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
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I didn't think of it, but I imagine there would be as much work getting th e materials for that up there as there was hauling all the grout up. Only savings would be the weight of the water used.
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after a try or two of yur method I tried the work platform...
what saved the day was a lot less trips.... a lot less...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
time/production was another big gain...
'specially if yur working alone...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
did I mention this was a 14/12?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
don't think so...
now that makes a difference...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"