Been reading ‘Poorly Made in China’ by Paul Midler and is an exceptional read for the behind the scenes and why disclosures. About halfway thru it now and looks to be one of those rare ‘read twice’ books.
A recommended read anyhow.
Shampoos and soaps are one thing but on the subject of overseas tool manufacturing it brings up many questions
and I’m not talking about the obvious off brands expected to be produced but the name brand tools we grew up with which have moved their manufacturing base there.
If the Chinese business mindset as portrayed so aptly by the author continues on into the tool manufacturing icons we are in a heap of trouble
regardless of American business sentiment involving their products with promises and guarantees.
Reminded of the reports read of carbide tips flying off chinese produced saw blades.
I mean how do we know that the foreign manus continued efforts to wrangle an extra dime by slimming down the product unbeknownst to the company reps
won’t be occurring in a fashion that puts the operator at risk
thinking thinner frames and shells?
Just not working is one thing but a host of other possible shortcomings could become tragic.
I mean construction and renos are risky enough as it is without succumbing to unknown inferiorly produced tools that stop amid a work day or worse yet fall apart.
Corporate buyouts of long standing companies by who?
and how’s a consumer to know the real repercussions of such?
be half tempted to start buying Festool
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
For Topics Too Hot For Taunton’s Breaktime Forum’s Tavern (abandon hope all ye who enter there)
Replies
I got a car lift made in china and it is top notch equipment, nothing wrong with it and even hold american certification
you lucked out...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Some very good questions....we use spray equipment on site and in a shop environment. The Chinese finish guns last literally hours. I have devellabus(spelling) and binks that have been with us over 25 years.
Please Americans start building things again. stinky
I think it has to do with the chinese manufactor just like American, you have good brands and bad brands. I have a Sears 19.2 battery tool set that is made in China and its been a keeper the six years I've had it, taken a lot of abuse and still working fine. I guess we have to try them until we weed out the bad.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I got a new cheap disposable compressor last week . I KNEW it was a cheepie, but much to my surprise, the "Brass" fittings for the air disconnect and drain petcock were actually some alum. or pot metal, colored to look like brass.
The drain was just spun in and basically self threaded, I took it out and was about install a new , better drain, but the tank threads were boogered, so I had to buy a 7 dollar tapered pipe thread tap to re tap the tank.
I wasn't mad, but what a way to cheepen up a tool.
Did I see you on 75 this week?
Rumor has it that the Airbus accident over the Atlantic was a result of failure of Chinese supplied composites used to attach the tail section onto the rest of the aircraft. Read this article: http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/archives/171891.asp
or maybe just the throwaway mentality of airbus in general!!!!
My stepson works on planes, thinks they are the worst!!!
but they are made in america
Airbus???????????????/
airbus is french
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I aint going if not a Boeing stinky
I think you are on to something!!
dude you are alive! ok, love your handle hows the van runnin? stinkyoh and yup we were all over i75
Sounds like I need a pinion / rear ...all else is running sweet..well, whining alt or PS pump..lol. 321,000 and rolling along.
Gonna cannibilize the last of what I want outta your old ride, and have it hauled out for scrap in few weeks I hope.
Trying for two weeks or so just working on MY house, just finished a hot and heavy job, pay is on the way!!!!
No bumper tag on 75, now..be nice to the big blue box.
Zorrohood your pinion gear will make that noise for another 100g miles dont touch it till it goes. stinky
View Image kinda clunks pulling from a dead stop, but not leaking bad. I hope to get one more year outta the beast, then start looking for the next ride. Should top 400K by then. Them one ton parts are expensive.
"kinda clunks pulling from a dead stop"Kinda like a Dodge does from brand new?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
it all boils down to a lot of Chinese mfgr's practice economic fraud as normal business....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I remember when I heard Elephant Mach. in Tiawan was buying the old casting molds from Rockwell/Delta...making bandsaws, shapers and Tablesaws with out of spec. molds.
There is your Grizzly, and other cheapo imports.
Not good enough for the higher quality/price of US made, but fine for sloppy Tiawan sales.
Sad.
i read in aold popular science mag where other country bought the mold to the old american cars, just think you could buy a brand new 55 chevy under a different badge name. I think it was brazil
Oh, and US companies don't do that?
I'm sure some do...
but there's recourse here as where in china it seems to be a way of life..
and we haven't recourse....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
http://www.google.com/search?q=chinese+economic+fraud&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1;
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
my opinion.I think, yes I do think, that since china does not have a patent system that when a china company copies a product, it becomes cheap. like the harbor freight stuff. all that are copies. But if an american company goes over for cheap labor but still controls the factory it can become good. Like Bend pak auto lifts.look at japan. Komatsu dozers are cat copies, and they are good.
Edited 7/9/2009 7:14 pm by brownbagg
"Please Americans start building things again. stinky"
Sorry Dude, Don't wanna start a flame war but I'll say it loudly.
It won't happen anytime soon. There is such a Mal-wart mentality that if everyone could outsource a remodel to China most of you guys wouldn't have any work.
Personal buying habits will bear that out. How many times do you hear of someone saying "I only need it to do the one job so I got it cheap from Harbor Freight"?
Spend the good buck, take care of your stuff and it will probably last. Buy old power tools from estate sales and repair them in down times. They'll be far better.
I know that most of what I have is not from there because I was so into US made and union labor and all that , that I wouldn't buy anything from China if I could avoid it. I'm still that way. I'd sooner do without or wait to afford something better.
If I were to start over buying my tools I'd certainly do the Festool thing. Can't tell you how much I've put into Freud. But I get quality as much as I'm able to afford it. But, that's just me.
We all want it NOW and CHEAP. We pay the price, one way or another. Pizz poor quality and job losses. It's a national mindset, the jobs are gone, the factories are gone and corporate America doesn't give a shid. Your government hasn't got the nads to do anything about it.
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying.
Think about it.
bum
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
oldbeachbum really cant disagree with anything you said....i was just talking to my self wishing for the old days..stinky
:"It's a national mindset, the jobs are gone, the factories are gone and corporate America doesn't give a shid."
You might be surprised to find out that America still produces 40% of the world's manufactured goods. That number has held steady over the last four decades. Its the same today as it was after wwii.
I do have to say that, from my observation, Chinese goods have effectively put many US companies out of business. Perhaps not the big ones that are reflected in the percentages, but small businesses that, in my opinion, are important by their sheer numbers.The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern
Think of two categories that we used to have so much manufacturing capacity for:
appliances (Maytag, GE, tv's, radios, etc.)
toys (Radio Flyer, Fisher-Price, almost anything that isn't craft made locally)
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying. Think about it.
Perhaps. Stats can be skewed in so many ways.
I think of the textile jobs that are gone. Steel, furniture, appliances, shoes, clothing, tools, glassware, food processing. Automobiles, parts for same, tires. Farm machinery, contruction machinery. Flatware, china (no pun intended), linens.
The numbers say one thing. As I drive through the country the empty storefronts and factories say another. The number of people utilizing food banks and the homeless numbers cannot be ignored.
I'm convinced that if someone devised a way to offshore a highway project some ceo would lobby for it as a cost savings.
I haven't read anything to substantiate or disprove your numbers. I'm simply reflecting on what I see with my own eyes and hear from friends and family losing their jobs.
It is a global economy and automation plays a large roll but our values or lack of them seem more the problem. You guys say it yourself. Your customers or potential clients do not appreciate or understand what a good job or product entails. They don't care about anything but the price. Until something goes wrong.
Well, nationwide it is going wrong. The price we pay for always shopping for price. It is now catching up to us.
I've admitted before, I'm not an especially educated person. Just a retired former working stiff that tried and still tries to look ahead. I have shopped price only but usually end up regretting it later. I simply try to be aware of the consequences of my decisions. Someone's job for another day, a family's meal, a doctor's visit, a little R&R. It all adds up.
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying. Think about it.
Edited 7/10/2009 1:15 am by oldbeachbum
You have a source for that? I know that as a percentage of GNP, it has shrunk drastically.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
More than just buying end pressure. American manufacturing has been driven out of country by good old American politicians instituting regulations and taxes on businesses, so those manufacturers go where they can afford to make product and compete with the rest of the world.Reason German tools are even more expensive is they have even more regulatory restrictions to work under.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, I was talking to my FIL the other day and he told me that production is coming back to America. He owns several companies; one of which is a machine shop that supplies consumables to the American foundry industry, so I consider him an expert on the state of american production.He also owns a boat anchor company...he wanted to sell anchors to walmart. they told him they only buy anchors from two distributors. he called one of the distributors. they said they get their anchors from china but would rather buy american. they want to sell his anchor and they want him to manuf six more anchors as well as 9 containers/yr of trailer jacks they were otherwise buying from china.I was curious why any distributor would even care where the product was made, as long as it's cheap.He told me that many manufs are coming back to america and many distributors are buying american because it's becoming increasingly cheaper to do so. Our economy is becoming so bad that there is less of a demand and therefore less to ship in each container. Hence, the cost per item in each container has gone up drastically. He said this is especially true for car parts.On the other hand, the same distributor who wanted to sell my FIL's anchors also asked him to repackage chinese made products (as american products? unsure) and since my FIL also owns a quality inspection company he agreed to repackage and inspect whatever they sent him. Could be a little shady but at least there are about 40 american families who will have food on their table because of it.I make notable efforts to buy american; if not american then north american, then european, then japanese, then lastly chinese or indian. Most people are stupid and just buy whatever is the cheapest. They just try to spend the least money, I try to make the best investment with my money. As a carpenter, my product is american made homes. My clients are american workers making other american made products. Why wouldn't I try to buy from my clients? It only makes sense.DC
Interesting in that the last chapter this morning before I headed out the writer was saying something to the effect of China is going to either rise like a balloon or sink like a lead weight.
That link you gave me was a listing by dollar value of EXPORTS, not of manufacturing.So it bears no relation to the Q I asked Jim. A country can export far more than manufactured goods. And it can likewise consume a majority of its own manufactured product or export a majority of it. Only if all countries listed exported only manufactured items and all exported the same percentage of what they make would that list be relative.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Over the past 10-20 years, American workers wages were amoung the highest in the world.As China and india et al improve their own economic situations, their wages incrtease At the same time, American workers are seeing their wages, incomes, and standard of living DECREASE.As we get closer to an even balance with our global trading partners, we will definitely see more manufacturing return to the US.But, Oh what a tsunami the transition is going to be!!!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think your exhuberance is misguided.
American production of manufactured goods has remained steady despite the loss of jobs. The reason is simple: automation, computers, robots. The blue collar jobs have disappeared and much higher paying technical jobs have replaced many of them.
The information age replaced the industrial age. China's economy is based on the industrial age and they will suffer the same results as automation replaces humans. The future of this and any country is in education...not blue collar sweat.
I was discussing these thoughts with a guy that has spent three decades inside auto plants. He confirmed that the new assembly lines are basically giant robotic assembly operations. He told me that the newer plants have the cars moving through a tented operation. Nothing is really that visible and at the end, a car gets spit out.
The UAW had 700,000 workers in it's heydey. They used to produce 7 million cars. Now, they are under 100,000 workers and producing far more.
Its a new era. We all have to face up to that. The days of finding a factory job are over and it will never return. Those of us from MI understand that. We were a huge part of the innovation that created the machinery and equipment and processes that allowed all of this to happen. The companies that are booming are those companies that build robotic assembly lines and equipment. The heydey of the car factories is history.
I think the main reason companies move to other countries in the first place is because of the outrageous cost of healthcare in america. Say what you will but paying a worker a just wage is one thing, paying him and paying for the insurance to cover his wife and four kids is another. He might not be worth that much.Of course regulation (health, safety, environmental, etc.) constitutes reason number two for companies to set up shop elsewhere. But regulatory burden is the worst for new business or business expansion.Another time talking to my FIL he said that a fellow machine shop owner had just opened a second factory in China and asked my FIL if he was interested in making the move also. Apparently the guy claimed that in his factory in China, all the workers get paid $6 a week and live at the factory; eating at their workstation and sleeping under their machines. I am glad that my FIL was opposed to such practices.If you are from MI (GB?) then you know well that many UAW'ers are over paid and get a top notch benefits package...on top of that they get discounts on cars. My bread and butter clients used to be UAW. Guys who had mcmansions filled with loads of toys and a cabin up north to boot. Now those toys are on CL and the mcmansion is bank repo. They just never saved their money. Not that I hate the UAW, I mean it was entirely necessary when it began but I sure don't feel they've truly benefited the american economy in the past 40 years or so. So, my answers would be for US Gov to provide healthcare, ease up on some regulations, restrict import a little and for automakers and other companies that are burdened by unnecessary unions to tell them all to give up or go (plenty of unemployed workers ready to fill their shoes anyway). Gov and Corps should be doing whatever it takes to put americans to work. DC
Jim, I know all of that is true, but it doesn't really have anything to do with your claim that America provides 40% of the worlds manufactured goods, which was my question.
I agree in general with what you are trying to say, but don't recall being exuberant about it at all.I just wanted to know if there is any evidence that America does indeed produce 40% of the worlds manufactured goods, or if you are repeating a claim from 10-12 years or so ago .
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I heard that figure last year before the election.
I was just trying to make the point that the manufacturing jobs will never again be the bread and butter of America. That ship has sailed.
China is now enjoying their industrial revolution, mainly because they introduced a blend of capitalism into their system. Contrast that to our country who is moving toward socialism in the industries. Do you see a problem with that?
I read an article in National Geographic about the Chinese industrial system. It told a story of a Chinese business man meeting with a builder to build a new factory. I don't remember the details but the factory was of significant size (maybe tens of thousands of square feet). In ten minutes, they sketched the shape and location of the rooms/partitions. The owner agreed to pay for only one extra: real doors to the rooms/offices. Imagine that: the entire factory design is done in ten minutes over coffee?!
Within a month, that factory was up and producing.
Contrast that to our system. Do you see a problem? How many factories would be producing here if we could get started that easily?
Yeah, I made the point earlier that regulations weere choking industry to death.But some regulation is good. For instance, when there is a flood or earthquake in America the death toll is single digits to perhaps dozens.While in China, India, Pakistan, or Turkey, the numbers are tens of thousands, largely because of shoddy construction of building that take only ten minutes to design.Gotta be a middle ground there someplace.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd rather live in an unregulated society, and die because of an earthquake, than survive only to find that I'm still overegulated.
We all have our druthers...
Another thing about Chinese production--often the labor is free--they use prisoners to make lots of products and they have no shortage of prisoners. Even where the products are made by non-prisoners, the workers aren't free--many factories are run by the army and you come to work at 7 a.m. and work at your station till 7 p.m. with maybe a break for lunch which you must buy on site. No unions, no health care, no pension funds, no benefits at all. (I guess most of them see the benefit is not starving to death.) Yes, truly another paradise on earth (along with Cuba and North Korea). As pointed out previously, they also have no environmental regulations and it makes production cheaper when you just throw the waste into the nearest stream.
I find this post very interesting. It has been my experience that my USA-made tools have held up better than those that have come from Taiwan or China. Also, I've always felt better when I bought an American made tool. I've also witnessed some heated arguments both for buying American, and for buying foreign. It seems as though the topics that evoke the strongest feelings would include tools, but I think cars would have to top the list.
I listen to some of these arguments and have to wonder why people seem to tolerate some imported items and not others. Some folks get really angry when they hear someone bought a Honda, or a Harbor Freight tool, but don't bat an eye at other things. Look at countries of origin for clothing, electronics, toys, cell phones, sporting goods, even food. A couple months back my wife brought home some garlic from the grocery store, and the label read "Product of China". I agree that buying American would certainly help keep our own people employed, it just seems as though everyone has their own idea of what is acceptable to buy imported. I'm not trying to defend or condemm those who buy Hondas, or Harbor Freight, just using them as examples.
I've also heard stories about how China keeps their labor costs so low. Working for pennies a day, no safety, no unions, etc. Some of it sounds like outright slavery. Anyone have any links to these conditions actually documented? I think that would make for interesting reading.
You mention Honda which has many vehicles which are OK on my list.Living in Michigan, most declare that there are only 3 cars you can buy. But frankly, I don't care what country the company is based in only as long as they are providing jobs for americans. I have never understood the argument against foreign owned companies and how their profits go home. Who cares were there profit goes, as long as americans are cashing the paychecks.As far as unions go, I say "bah!". If you need a union to work then you are not as valuable as you may think.DC
when I gradulated high school here in Mobile. My dad bought me a new toyota pickup, a week later my uncle got me a job in Detriot at Ford Motors, dearborn. within six months my pickup was in a junkyard from people running into it, "sorry did not see you" Even the cops would not take reports.I dont care about american made no more, american have no ethics, gimmee gimmee gimmee. If they had ethic, quality honor ( oh my god japan) they could name their price.
You should have turned it into a mad max truck with spikes and flame throwers and such.
one factor against buying American is the obscene salaries of some of the big companies CEOs - a National Disgrace I think. But we need to pay that much to keep them- sure- cut the salaries 40% and I be no one would quit.
PS -I support buying here- wish products made in USA were More clearly marked
You guys are missing some of the most important point-
If you buy something in China, and it harms you, you have no recourse against the guys who made it- only against the local people who sold it to you.
China has no functioning civil court system. Anybody who seeks justice by going to China to settle a dispute is likely to end up in jail, just as many Chinese-Canadian businessmen have.
That's different than if you bought the same goods from Taiwan, or Japan, or Europe, or most other functioning democracies.
I have no objection to international trade, development or globalization in principle as long as the trade is FAIR. Take the Canada/US trade relationship: a trillion dollars go back and forth each year and it's always in balance within a few percent (a few tens of billions of dollars). That's good for BOTH countries.
If China wins the trade competition purely because their labour is cheaper because they have so many destitute people willing to work, that's fair. If they win because they, like we before them, don't care about their environment and choose to pollute the hell out of their land and water rather than spending money on pollution controls, that too is fair, if regrettable for their future. But if they win because they artificially manipulate the value of their currency to overcome the market's natural tendency to make their goods more expensive as their trade surplus with the rest of the world grows- that's UNFAIR. If they substitute inferior materials and then hide behind their totalitarian regime to avoid paying compensation to the victims, that too is unfair. Or if they, like Korea, prevent foreign automakers from setting up dealerships to even have a CHANCE to sell their goods in their country- that's UNFAIR. That's trade used as a weapon of war.
Fundamentally what's wrong here is that the US is unwilling to put in place tarriffs against Chinese goods to compensate for the undervaluation of the Chinese currency. Though the US imports approximately $10 worth of Chinese goods for every $1 worth of US goods China buys, that $1 worth of reciprocal trade has such political power in Washington that tarriffs are basically impossible. And now that China holds a large fraction of the spiralling US debt, it's also probably financially impossible as well.
Hondas, as far as I know, are made in USA (Illinois). There was a whole book (well, I'm sure there is more than one) written about Industrial Parks in China where the workers are vrtually slaves. (I even wrote about that book here, if remember correctly.) I'm not sure what the book's title was--No Name Brand (? maybe?).
At one time, Oprah was all into Wal-Mart (and, women's rights, of course) and I emailed her and told her about Wal-Mart buying lots of products from Chinese sweat shops, and in the book I read, they talked about how one woman had given birth at her work station because the authorities wouldn't let her leave.
Hey, who cares as long as I get my shirts for a couple dollars less--so what if the seams rip out after a month. So what if my kids get lead poisoning from a Chinese toy--it was half the price of one made in the USA!
they also have no environmental regulations and it makes production cheaper when you just throw the waste into the nearest stream.
Or back into the products being manufactured!
Another interesting tidbit in this morning's installment of the 'Poorly Made in China' expose' came from one of the minor comment rabbit trails the author takes ever now and then
regarding his limiting the use of the Chinese manufactured soaps to a point he rarely even uses soaps, when showering because of what he has learned. Claims why take an unnecessary risk.
25 years as a go-between for Chinese manus and American companies is nothing to sneeze at.
Did I mention that it is an interesting read worth the look into:o)
I fully agree with the quality issue, although I think there is a difference between Chinese factories owned by U.S. companies, and Chinese owned factories. I still would rather buy U.S. made, even if it is the same quality and ends up being more expensive.
What I find ironic about a lot of the comments here is that there are so many people using the argument of shipping jobs to China, and then turning around and have no problems buying Festool, Bosch and other European products. Still shipping jobs overseas, just the other direction. Yes, the quality is usually better than Chinese, but they are still not made by Americans.
I admit, I do buy Chinese tools (the better ones), German tools, Japanese tools, Swiss tools etc. I love my Festool! I buy based on quality, and IF I find an American tool, and it's of good quality, I will usually choose that tool. I am willing to pay more for an American Skil saw, but unfortunatly, now their worm drives are made in China. I still have my "Made in USA" saw. There is so little choice for American Made anymore. Everytime we vote for cheap over U.S. made, we send jobs overseas. And yes, I mean "we." It's not just tools, but everything we buy. The same goes for chosing Bosch over Milwaukee (pre China buy-out.) We as a country have chosen this path by not buying American, even when an American substitute is available.
I'm guilty too. (though not on buying cheap. Ask my wife!)
".....many people using the argument of shipping jobs to China, and then turning around and have no problems buying Festool....."No irony here, just simple logic. If I can't buy an american made product, I buy from the next country I would want to move to....It sure isn't China or India!!!Still a little iffy about Mexico and Japan.I don't like Vietnam, Thailand, or Malaysia either.Strange how it seems like nothing is made in Africa (not that I'd want to live there either).Does anyone think there is any way we as a BT collective could petition iconic american tool manufacturers like Delta/Porter Cable or Milwaukee in an effort to convince them to make tools in USA again?DC
Does anyone think there is any way we as a BT collective could petition iconic american tool manufacturers like Delta/Porter Cable or Milwaukee in an effort to convince them to make tools in USA again?
Good idea--Maybe form a consortium or buying club and tell a chosen manufacturer that members will buy their tools through the given manufacturer, as long as it stays in USA. Years ago there was talk of Harley-Davidson going under and somehow they were saved because they make such good motorcycles and I think people actually campaigned to keep them in business by sort of "guaranteeing" that they would buy their cycles.
Seems to me that something could be done through a national campaign. I suppose that buying stock in American companies would be a start--shareholders have some power over decisions made.
It really ought not matter a whit to anyone (except the Customs duty collector) where something was made.
That said, there are many, many things that affect where things are made, and how expensive they are. The first hurdle is: are we comparing 'like' with 'like?' I mean, there's no point in comparing a $250 titanium hammer with a $3 HF cast iron and balsa wood toy.
Indeed, hammers are a good example. Serious tradesmen, even those of the cheap import variety, are not using cheap hammers. At a fairly early point, price stops being the first priority.
Populist rhetoric aside, 'profit' is a good thing. Look to any industry that is not allowed a profit, and what do you find? Outmoded equipment and products that haven't improved in decades.
Ultimately, the price you pay has to cover the manufacture, the transport, and the taxes. If one guy can make something for less than the other guy, the reason has to be within those three categories.
While it's easy to chide a firm for relocating where labor rates are less, maybe we also need to ask: why are they less? The labor can only cost less if the cost of living is less, or the workers are less capable. If they're less capable, and producing to the same level, then we're overqualified. If the reason is cost of living, we need to ask: why?
What other factors require a manufacturer to spend more? A big part of those extra expenses is the increased governmental burden. For example, one nearby town (Sparks, Nv.) has built a warehousing industry simply by not using a tax accounting rule that California used (until recently) to assess a tax on warehoused goods. The result? Companies built on the 'cheap' side of the border.
What goes around .... Today Sparks is losing business to Tracy, Nv., where the locals do not require the warehouses to plant a multitude of trees in their lots, pay a 'head tax' on employees, and environmental compliance is much less intrusive.
Looking at the vast array of regulations, taxes, and controls that stop at our border, it's no surprise that many things are imported. If companies are leaving, maybe it's because we're chasing them out. If that's the case, the last thing these firms want is a 'buy local' ethic - and the guy who stays will be at a disadvantage.
From that perspective, a 'buy local' ethic is but another tool of our governemnt masters to tighten their control over us.
One cannot underestimate the role of competence in job location. While nearly anyone can learn to man a station on an assembly line, very few have the skills to make the best fighter jets. Thus, we may soon see Indian cars, but I doubt we'll see anything but US-made jets in our arsenal. Likewise, it's one thing for the Japanese to make oil tankers, and another to make an aircraft carrier. In some fields, there's no place for second place.
A less obvious cause of jobs, and manufacture, going 'overseas' is our subsidizing of foreign countries, either through foreigh aid, or indirectly through deficit spending.
We can only have a deficit if we can borrow. If the lender is foreign, where will he spend the profits he collects? Right here .... which is why the Chinese were able to but Milwaukee (and many other firms).
Look at the foreign products, and their lower prices, as a 'wake-up call' to the excesses of our governemnts. For what is supposedly a free country, we have an astounding array of laws and regulations - each of which had their source in US. As long as everyone wants to regulate the 'other guy,' the 'other guy' is going to try to regulate us.
Low prices preserve freedom. It's that simple.
A great "nother point of view" postI like to hear many sides of things and I really enjoyed your postIt makes the eyes open bigger and the brain to think wider.Thanks
I agree in general with what you said here, but you seem unaware that Bosch is made in Carolina for about 10-12 years now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bosch is a German company that has a factory in Carolina, so yes, some of the manufacturing is done in the US. The profits, of course, go home. Of course, they do employ a lot of people in the US, paying salaries.
+1
Amazing how this country spent years promoting the superiority of capitalism and free market and the right to earn your dollars any way you can ........
Then spends time beetching when a country does so and we are on the receiving end of what we wanted them to have.
Interesting to read histories take of the war goods suppliers to this countries defense dept throughout the years starting from 1776....
Case after case of shoddy materials and workmanship produced .
The Chinese didn't invent the process, nor have they refined it any further than we in this country have.
We spoon fed the baby and now that it is a giant we complain.
I have no sympathy.
Is Mzinga a Chinese word?
Just wondering.
edit: Swahili for "beehive"
answers that query. LOL
Edited 7/9/2009 7:46 pm ET by Zorrohood
'Poorly Made in China' by Paul Midler
Published this year.
Worth the read. Go to yer library.
The Woodshed Tavern BackroomFor Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum's Tavern (abandon hope all ye who enter there)
class dismissed ???
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying. Think about it.
Just enjoying the read is all.
Guy's writing style conveys the abstract Chinese/American differences pretty well.
The Woodshed Tavern BackroomFor Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum's Tavern (abandon hope all ye who enter there)
Yes, oh wise one....being very scrutable
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying. Think about it.
The kitchen cabs I bought a couple months ago (Schrock)... Made in the USA.
The two addition sections of scaffolding I bought a couple days ago (Biljack)... Made in the USA.
The 6 rolls of landscaping weed fabric that I'm using in the yard... Made in the USA.
The box of peaches I bought two days ago... Grown in the USA.
Everything else made overseas.
I keep hearing about how it is cheaper to make stuff in China and India, but I'm not sure I'm buying it. Back in the 70's, I can remember actually being able to buy stuff with coins... Now it seems like a buck is the smallest denomination that you can buy stuff with. If a 15 cent item back then is now 99 cents... how is that cheaper?!
I've heard about a book a lady wrote about trying to go a whole year without buying 'made in china' products for her family. I need to find that book and see how she did it.
The REALLY scary thing is that if we keep shipping our $$ over there, eventually they might work out the bugs and actually make superior products. Remember decades ago when Japanese products were all cheap ####? Well they certainly turned that around... thanks in no small part to US $$.
jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you.
-- Carl Sandburg
http://www.amazon.com/Year-Without-Made-China-Adventure/dp/0470379200/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=booksqid=1247232911&sr=1-2
Thanks, I couldn't remember the title. I was going to look for it in the library, but for $10, I might as well just buy it. Then if I like it I can loan it to family/friends.jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin
"It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay too little, sometimes you lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." - John Ruskin
I knew someone would be on the way with these quotes so I just up and put them on.
I think about it this way, when I do work and I make a little extra money, I'm really happy, it puts extra food on the table, or let's me buy some new duds. So why shouldn't I be the one paying to make someone else have that same experience. It's why I buy my tools from the local tool shop even though it's the exact same tool I could get online for $40 less, or buy the locally made materials even though they're more expensive.
If you pay too little, someone is bound to be getting scr*wed.
I watch the businesses that I know and love fold up around me because they can't compete with the companies who do it cheaply. Once again quality loses out to quantity.
And then the lumberyards start carrying the shiddy plywood from china because no one will pay the extra $7 for the stuff from 4 towns over. The best part is that we're shipping trees over there to be processed and then shipped back as plywood with yummy lung-bleeding glues in it. It's an ugly, ugly game that they're playing with money. it can really make ya a little sad, or mad, or at least stand up enough to try and do something about it in whatever little way you can.
Paul
Well said Paul.
Stay true to your convictions and we all will benefit by helping each other.
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Your standard of living will eventually diminish to your standard of buying. Think about it.
Congratulations!
hipaul receives the BT 'Truth in Print' award.
Saaalute!!!View ImageView Image
The Woodshed Tavern BackroomFor Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum's Tavern (abandon hope all ye who enter there)
Think you're spot on ............ but I'm not sure what the solution is. Kinda like we're in a downward death spiral. We've driven wages and profits down so we've essentially forced many people into "price is everything" mentality just so they can survive.
"There can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state…Socialism is in its essence an attack not only on British enterprise, but upon the right of ordinary men and women to breathe freely without having a harsh, clammy, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils" -Winston Churchill
The best plywood I ever used was imported from Canada. Should we close that border too?
Blue, I personally am not talking about borders or even countries specifically. It has more to do (IMHO) with the mentality of cheapening things to the point where it's negatively affecting so many other things.Some of my best tools are German, Italian and Japanese. I used to think that "Made in USA" meant shoddy quality. Now I think it means an opportunity to support the country where I currently live. In the same way I support the state I live in over other states when I can, and support the city and community where I am when I have the chance. That doesn't mean that any of those other people don't deserve to have the very best as well and make a living. It just means (to me) that I have an opportunity to support and be supported by the people directly around me. Growing up out in the country (as I'm sure many of you all did as well) I remember what it's like to have a close rapport with the people around; something bad happens and everyone helps out. They don't do that for the guy living in the other town when something bad happens, but they're not directly involved with him. Doesn't mean they shouldn't care, or don't care, they're just in a different situation.So all that in a roundabout way to say that if I can get a great quality thing, I'll get it, no matter where it's from. If I can get it locally then I'll pay the extra cost for it to support the people around me; they're going to do it right back to me. It doesn't mean I'll buy something cr*ppy because it's locally made,and it doesn't mean I won't buy something great because it's made somewhere else. As someone else was saying, "Made in Japan" used to mean "uh-oh", now it's the same with "Made in China"So I've got no problem with great Canadian plywood, I just have a problem with the fact that every weekend I drive by the boarded up plywood mill that used to make great plywood right here. While I'll buy good plywood from anywhere, I sure would like to be buying it from the guys right down the road who I'd sit and have a beer with later on and maybe talk about how their kids are doing.Paul
http://www.pauljohnsoncarpentry.com
And then the lumberyards start carrying the shiddy plywood from china because no one will pay the extra $7 for the stuff from 4 towns over. The best part is that we're shipping trees over there to be processed and then shipped back as plywood with yummy lung-bleeding glues in it. It's an ugly, ugly game that they're playing with money. it can really make ya a little sad, or mad, or at least stand up enough to try and do something about it in whatever little way you can.
There is something so ABSURD about that... so illogical. How can it be cheaper to ship a product thousands of miles... have it processed...and then ship it back thousands of miles and it STILL be cheaper than the plant making it in the next town?!
I just don't understand. jt8
Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you. -- Carl Sandburg
"There is something so ABSURD about that... so illogical. How can it be cheaper to ship a product thousands of miles... have it processed...and then ship it back thousands of miles and it STILL be cheaper than the plant making it in the next town?!I just don't understand. "I know, it boggles the mind.... but I guess that's why we're here looking at Fine Homebuilding.com instead of over at Fine Global Economics Building.com....Paul
http://www.pauljohnsoncarpentry.com
That book I mention is a good intro.
Goes to show you what the cost of doing business in the USA is.
As citizens and employees, we want environmental stewardship, want to be paid well, have insurance and retirement benefits, have workplace safety regulations and enforcement, and be able to sue someone when they screw up.
All of those things are paid for through federal, state and local taxes and costs that the business must pass on to the consumer in the price of the item.
A further wrinkle are the investors in the company that demand ever increasing profits on a quarterly basis, often with little regard about the impact of short sighted decisions.
So, the short sighted investors force the company to increase profits. Easiest way to do that is cut out all of that stuff in the first paragraph and move manufacturing offshore to a country that treats their people and environment in the same way the USA did during the industrial revolution. Big change is the scale of destruction on both human and environmental levels between the two time periods.
Then there are the consumers that choose the cheaper imported item instead of the locally/USA made item. I have seen it 100's of times- give people a choice, and the clear majority chooses based on price, not by checking any labels. Then the store dumps the slow selling domestic manufactured item and jacks up the price on the Chinese junk, satisfying investors.
High paying jobs with benefits are lost, replaced with lower paying jobs with fewer (or more expensive) benefits. Those people have less money to spend, yet still want to fill their places with "stuff", so the only way to get more "stuff" for less money is to shop at the places that sell at a low price point. Items are sold at a low price point only if the production costs are low, so now we are back to outsourcing because fewer people have the disposable income to pay for all that stuff in the first paragraph.
It is a vicious downward cycle with pressure from two fronts: the investors seeking short term improvements each quarter and the people that don't want to (or can't)spend any money. I believe that the people that *could* spend a little extra outnumber the people that really *can't*... and if someone has a big SUV with 22" rims... the latest cell phone with all the toys or the $150 monthly cable bill isn't really broke and destitute.
We only have ourselves to blame for the current mess. It is impossible to have your cake and eat it, too.
$.02
What I'd really like to see is an expose' of the same directed specifically at tools, tracing the various steps and occurrences bringing the product from A to B.
A reoccurring theme is the art of the Chinese factory using subtle means to alter the original directive of the importer in small ways without the importer ever being made aware of it
until they make the discovery themselves, of course usually after the item has been cargoed over here already.
The problem not being the intent of the original company but the continual hidden corner cutting by the factory often with disastrous results
and because of international policies, or lack of, continues on over and over again becoming the regular and expected way of doing business
taking more and again profit from the company into their factory coffers
and because of great competition and the Chinese players networking among their own and coupled with the high demand from American consumers
are able to continue the charade in the face of direct and frontal questioning and accusation
with a smile and wily techniques at dodging.
It's how business is done.
At least the Japanese don't softsell with an arm across your shoulder and a pat on your back
and openly admit that 'business is war'.
Edited 7/12/2009 11:02 am ET by rez
Wanted to end the thread on a positive note.
Remember this next time you buy a Milwaukee tool...
View Image
After reading that little text, I came up with a hypothesis that generally speaking there are three tool buying sins:Those who buy Chinese tools do so out of GREED. They want as many tools as possible but are only willing to part with the fewest dollars to get it. If they can get a new table saw at the price of dirt, they will do so; regardless of whom had to suffer in order for them to do so. The same idea is even more prevalent though the ages when dealing with buying gold, diamonds, and oil.Next, there are those who buy only European tools (because those Germans always make great stuff). This class of tool buyers suffer from LUST. These guys do whatever it takes to have the luxury tools (whether or not they are better is irrelevant, it's all about a name). They drool over the next overpriced euro-tool, waiting with cash in hand until the day it is available in this country; sometimes they even go through the hoops to get it before it's available in the US. This idea goes much further than Festools, it also applies to Lamborgini cars, Rolex watches, and Louis Vuitton handbags.Lastly, there are those who only buy American made tools out of sheer American PRIDE. Although it may seem great, it's not so when you put down all those tools which are inferior in idea although quality may be the same or better elsewhere. Pride (often considered the worst and the basis of all other sins) tricks the tool buyer into thinking that local tools are always the best quality or best value when in fact both quality and value are mediocre at best. Eventually the ideas of national-centric buying dogma develops into a militant demeanor which can actually cause one to become violently concerning their personal opinion policy. I see this a lot in Michigan amongst UAW workers; many of which would literally disown their daughter if she bought a Toyota.Of course there is overlap in these sins; one who lusts so deeply for German tools may go out and drop their nest egg on a shop full of those tools, only to develop a German pride complex. Still others may buy loads of Cheap asian tools and get puffed with pride over the quantity they own or because of their supposed cunning. And let's not forget that there is still Envy, Sloth, Gluttony, and Wrath to fit into the scheme of tool buying: Those with envy want the tools others have like when DIY want pro grade, Those with wrath hate other's tools such as US vs. Asian, Those with gluttony buy tools to excess and we just chuckle and call ourselves "tool hounds" or "collectors", And those with sloth buy tools they never use...then put them on craigslist in a couple of years. It's all there if you think about it.DC
Thanks. I love it."The Seven Deadly Sins Of Tool Buying."The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern
I was reading a tool review by TimUlher in the latest ish of JLC today and saw where the review contains a wording for 'Made In:' at the bottom of the various data listing.
Don't know if the 'Made In: China' was there as a point of braggadociosness, a matter of fact, or a disclaimer.
be pleading the fifth
Edited 7/16/2009 11:46 am ET by rez
its not greed it cheap. beside sear, where can you walk in on a saturday and buy a american tool, well, waiting. and I not talking about a dewalt but something like harbor freight have , made in america
at a good price too. cant afford snap on
I would like to see every tool and tool review more bluntly describe where the product was manufactured.If you look at my earlier posts you may note that I attempt to buy American. But, I must contend, my method is based on logic instead of dogma. Basically the calculation can be described as: If I can get the same quality in a local product without imparting an impractical amount of economical burden on myself then the local product will win. However when there is a lopsidedness to the cost vs. quality vs. "made in" equation then I buy what logic dictates. I think it is obvious that most products are of the same quality or less when they are made in the US as when they are made abroad. I have many tools from many countries...it may be that the majority of my tools are Chinese (unfortunately) but I think US made comes in a close second.But it is in all our best interest to favor those US made products.Also, I keep a short list of tool brands I just plain refuse to buy power tools from: Black and Decker, Central Machinery, Clarke, Chicago Pneumatic, Craftsman, DeWalt, GMC, GripRite, Hitachi, Kawasaki, Kobalt, Ryobi, Skill, Steel City, Tradesman, Workforce; not to mention anything with the word "Craft" "Master" "Power" or "Quality" in the name.I do still consider non-power tools and accessories/consumables from any of those companies though. DC
I fear with the foreign manufacturers it is not so much the where a tool is manufactured but the how.
If tooling carries the same imprint of fraud that other foreignmade products in history have proven
then quality is going to be all over the board, no pun intended.
don't be made on Fridays
Edited 7/16/2009 12:32 pm ET by rez
I wish they'd let me use the tools and write a review. I wonder what they would do when the photos came back and every brand new saw was hacked up and modified so it could actually do some work LOL.
That would have been the highlight of my career LOL.
like that tim toolman show, with the benfur sawall
I avoid Chinese like the plague...
that goes for their grub too...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
BTW...
just bought a US made Mil Magnum....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I fear I may have bought that book as it has been misplaced and dang if I know where it might be.
Was wanting to double check a figure before posting regarding Walmart carrying the image of being such a carrier of Chinese imports
as .75 of one percent of China's manufactured goods are purchased by Walmart.
Kinda puts a new perspective over things seeing that the US imports 20% of China's manu goods.
There are two considerations with Chinese quality control with regard to tools. Many factories have fewer than 20 employees in total and so consistent quality is as unlikely as with the American companies that have produced produced in the maquilidoras along the border that have no permanent employees on the production lines. The other problem is that US companies go to China to reduce costs and so the Chinese are used to having to produce lower quality products to win bids.
I have seen many tools made in China that meet even European standards which are a lot more stringent than anything in the USA, as well as tools that are not even made in the USA like tungsten carbide tips that are dovetailed into the cutter or adjustable hole cutters that use quality carbide and all parts are carefully machined and plated.
All cordless drills are now made overseas and most blades and hole saws and drill bits are also now made in Malaysia, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, or India. Harbor Freight is one of the fastest growing store chains and all they sell are cheap tools from overseas.
But pretty soon even your Chevy truck is going to be made in China based on the recent bailout of GM and the information that was disclosed about GM's plants in China. Want to turn this around then start paying attention to who you vote for as president and for Congress and stop shopping at Wal-Mart.
"the information that was disclosed about GM's plants in China"What info was that? GM has been ramping up car factories there for years now to make and sell cars to the Chinese. They are a version that would not pass inspections here and there is currently no plan to import cars from China to US by GM
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Anyone else read that book 'Poorly Made in China'?
yup....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Don't keep us in suspense--how does it end?
The climax is currently being written.
The epilogue is what has me wondering.
it doesn't...
we keep getting it put to us...
without lube...
but we do go willingly...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"