I mentioned in another thread that I’d post some pics from a McMansion that were framing.
These pics show how we do our circular stairs.
Frank is doing the building. Steve is working with him sometimes and is also taking the pictures. He’s a novice at the picture taking, so pardon me if these pics aren’t the best.
In this pic, Frank decided to work from the top backwards. Don’t ask me why, I wouldn’t do it that way, but there must be a good reason. I think it might have something to do with him trying to get a decent sized arch under the stairs.
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Frank had to spend a considerable amount of time doing the basic architectural planning on this set. All we were given was the size of the foyer and a note to put in circular stairs.
Were probably not getting paid enough on this one, but I do know that the framer that we replaced had bid it for 6000 less than us. He was having a hard time getting to it and we developed a hole in our schedule, so it was a nice fit, but poor plans. It's not a very hard house so I guess it will all even out in the long run.
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We start by drawing out the arc on the floor. This is an easy floor to work on because theres no stairs under us (that's unusual).
The darker black line was the first attempt. It was our "ideal" plan, but it resulted in a very small arch leading into the great room. The snapped red lines represents the final layout. Each riser is also snappen in red.
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Frank finally decided where he had to put the bearing wall and I wandered over to do what I do best....lean! Notice that I've tossed out my workboots. I'm getting so old I can't even lift my feet anymore if I wear the proper foot wear. And notice my tool belt. I've tossed it away and have just hooked up individual holders for my knife, marker, tape and hammer. I have a special pouch for gun nails (I only put two clips in it, if any) and that one tiny little nail bag that I put two spikes in for emergencys.
Im thinking of ditching the pouch.
I had to laugh at the recent thread on pouches. I can't believe what some people carry all day. I guess I just cant anymore because I'm already carrying an extra thirty pounds around my belly!
Anyways, Frank is penciling in the height of each riser on the stud. Of course he's using his $4.99 dual power calculator. He laughed at me when I told him I bought a CMIV! Actually, he was right to laugh....I still use my $4.99 dual power!
Incidently, Frank is getting married on Saturday. I told him he'd have to postpone the wedding and honeymoon if he doesn't finish those stairs tomorrow.
I ain't gonna work on them!
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Okay, now were getting into the actual stair phase.
This shot shows the upper straight section partially hidden by that arch header. It also shows the circular section of the staircase.
Steve missed the picture I wanted to show you. I wanted a shot of how we assemble all the parts while they are lying flat on the floor. For each tread, we use two studs. That gives us a starting tread depth of 7'' on the inside radius. We use a wide crown stapler to connect each adjoing member to one another. This process takes only a couple of minutes. The assembly plumbs itself when we stand it up and then we simply start building each tread as we go up, radiating from the inside arc using a uniform shaped tread.
On this one we made the treads out of 3/4'' plywood.
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Frank finished up the bottom section of the staircase using essentially the same technique. Myself, I probably would have cut the last section in the conventional manner (saw toothing a 2x12).
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Okay, now were getting somewhere. Frank is starting his first tread assembly. I think he decided to stay consistent in his methods during the first straight section and the curved section. He's opted to use a 2x12 riser with a 2x4 ledger glued and nailed to carry the back of the tread.
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This pic shows Frank installing the back of the first tread in the curved section.
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Heres a shot of the backside. Frank has properly supported both the riser and the ledger with a stud. This results in a 4x4 holding up each tread.
I don't see the same consideration being employed at the inside radius. It appears that he'd going to rely on nails to hold up that side. If that's the case, we'll be having a discussion about that.
Another issue will be "windbracing" the outside radius. There will have to be some sustantial "x" bracing to prevent swaying. I'll wait to discuss this issue till after the stairs are done and all adjacent walls are in too. I'm not sure of the layout of that section of the house and I don't want to jump in too soon and step on Franks decision making process.
You can see me in the background doing my thing out there on the table.
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Edited 7/14/2005 10:38 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
Here's a closer look at the tread/riser assembly. The stairs look and feel pretty good.
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Frank had to blast out early. He had to go see the priest for some consultation about the vows or something. I think this represents about 8 hours total (4 skilled and 4 semi-skilled). I normally build a circular set in about 8 hours, but I don't usually have to do so much head scratching and planning. Usually, all I have to do is calculate the given radius to see if it will pass code. I know Frank and I have invested at least 3 hours doing the architectual planning on this set of stairs alone!
This shot epitomzes how radically different we frame today as a result of working off the tables. Basically, we are looking through the foyer and out past the great room. I've concentrated my efforts on framing only those exterior walls that are needed to get the second deck framed. I've left out the foyer and great room walls because they can be dropped in any time while the deck is being framed.
This system gives us great flexibility in our building process. In the olden days, one of the first walls would be the tall great room and the front door. We'd be pressing to get them done so we could get to the stairs.
Times are a changing.
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Ps I'll post the finished set tommorrow.
Nice. I was heading to bed at 10:30 but this caught my eye. Glad I stayed up thanks for the lesson.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
I clicked this thread 'cause I knew that I'd learn something.I didbesides a new way to frame stairs, I now know that when consulting with a priest about marriage, half of it is unskilled.;)
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I'd like to see some more 'head scratching' and 'what you do best'.<G>
Nice visuals, Blue. Very informative. I can appreciate the efforts of working on those sorts of projects. I am framing a 6700 footer now and will soon move to another smaller one.
Different way to build the stairs, I like it. Thanks for the pics.Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Some of those 6700 footers can be quite challenging. I haven't done many big ones in a while; I'm trying to avoid them myself.
This system for circular stairs really pays dividends when there are more circular treads units. Steve cut all the parts on the horses and dropped them onto the floor for the stapling, but I usually dump about 7 studs onto the floor, kick them tight, then mark them and cut them right there. The drops from one set become the stock for a different rise and you can very quickly create a 15 unit inside stringer in minutes.
The key is to use a wide crown stapler with 1 1/2" long staples. The assembly is surprisingly stable and it keeps its shape- no bowing, twisting or crowning.
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Looks great, I have a question about the posted picture #10 Close up. How do you stiffen the stair trimmers when it falls in between the floor joists? I have used plywood to sheath the inside of the radius walls or run some sort of header above the floor system to spread the load. First experience was watching one of my carpenters walking down a set of stairs that I considered complete and watching the steps deflect. Fixed that issue by sheathing the wall on the inside of the radius wall.
I build a 2 x 4 carriage system with a ripped riser and plywood tread that is cut 2-2.5" away from any full height walls. This allows easier installation of sheetrock and skirt boards. I will try to attach a sketch as it is also a interesting way to attach sheetrock to the bottom of the stairs.
Radius work has always been one of my favorites. It is nice to need to put on a thinking hat.
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Adam, sagging between the floor joists has never been a problem, at least not on the inside radius location. The members fastened together act in usison to preventing sag. I'd guess that you could cut the plywood out completely beneath the inside radius and it woud suspend itself nicely between bearings.
The point loads on the outside radius are an issue. Frank and I were discussing support options today and we agreed to leave it till the adjoing partitions were framed. We'll be doing several different support and bracing operations.
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Blue,Nice work. This is where I'm jealous because we don't get to build interior stairs. That's left for stair companies and the great guys like Stan Foster to do but I would love to cut those.I went back to that house where I framed the conical roof and the stone mason started to put stone steps in there but they're not done yet.Joe Carola
Interesting stone steps Joe!
Around here we do the rough circular stairs. if we didn't, we'd at least have to build temporaries for other trades and inspectors. I myself wouldn't even think of working on the second floor without a set of stairs to walk up.
I enjoyed the first dozen circulars that I've built, but I don't want to do anymore. I prefer to do the leaning and watch the kids have their fun.
Frank and I discussed several changes that he/we should have done on that set and he agreed. He will be adding support on both the inside and out side stringers. I insist on not having to rely on nails, especially on these stairs because we won't have access underneath them if a problem occurs in the future. I'd rather spend the ten minutes beefing them up, than cut through drywall three years later.
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Blue, I've been wanting to build a set of your stairs since you first explained it a few years back.
Guess I'm gonna have to build a tower or something just to see how it works.
Joe's stone steps look like the kind Errol Flynn used to go up and down whilst sword fighting the bad guys.
Joe H
Joe, you'll be very happy if you do ever build a set like that.
That post I did a few years back was probably my first or second post. I just jumped in with something I thought was really helpful. I don't mind helping people long distance. I just don't like helping my immediate competition.
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Blue, It's a long way to Michigan from here in Utah.
Left there when I was 3, probably not going back so you're safe.
Joe H
Blue: Very impressive.
Framer: I just have been in the lurking mode the last two months. I happened to see my name in the post you just sent. I really appreciate your opinion ....but I assure you its over-rated. I am just another stair dude doing it my way. I am always impressed with others work that is done "another" way.
The end result is nice stairwork no matter how it gets done.
This forum has such diversified talent.
Ok....back to lurking.
BTW....I am busier than ever and am trying to clone myself.
Stan
Blue, I'm glad you finally posted some pics of your circular method...all this time I thought you made your inside stringer with the stud edges out, d'oh!I assume they get carpeted, is that right? Do they get inner and outer skirtboards?I'm impressed with your deceptively simple solution, consider it stolen<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
It's slicker than snot. One of these days I'm gonna build one, if only to the roof just to see it in the flesh.
Blue, you should think about taking this show on the road with JLC.
Joe H
Thanks for the suggestion JoeH. I once gave some thought to submitting something about this to FH, but that's as far as it got.
It makes me feel good to gather compliments from both Stan and Snort in one post though. Those guys are the true artists. I'm just crafting out the rough horses. My work isn't that technically challenging, that's why I've devoted so much effort toward streamlining the onsite processes over the years.
Stan: What do you mean, training a clone? Have you picked up an apprentice? If so, good luck.
Snort: The particular stairs will only have carpeting, no skirt boards that I know of. Usually, and this is no exception, we really don't have any clue as to how the stairs will be trimmed out. I'm sure over the years, we've built them in a way that made it harder for the trimmers, but since we don't have much information, we normally just make them as solid and as fast as we can. In my apprentice years as a union crew, the rough and finish had to be included as one contract and there was more co-ordination between the two facets of the stairbuilding process. Nowadays, I've never heard of such a thing.
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Blue: I am not looking for any help. I like staying small.
The world doenst want or need another Stan...<G>
Oh, okay, I misunderstood your cloning comment.
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Doode, now that you're into blocking, I'd be happy to trim behind you anytime<G>Hey, you gonna do a seminar at cal's? I'd love to see you again, us hacks gotta stick together...ha,ha,ha! Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Snort, don't get too fired up about all that blocking. I haven't found anyone yet that needs/wants it, therefore, I haven't installed any yet!
I think I have a guy that will want it in September.
I will be at Cals only on Friday. I'll be glad to do a seminar on customizing saws to make them functional. Bring along that antique PC and I'll make it right.
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Alrighty...Hey, your "jam 'n slam" trick worked, it even knocked the rest of the dog food out, ...now, if I can only get Dino to give me a base for it...and find someone to carry it around for me, ha, ha ,ha There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Ernest H. Shepard
Is it too heavy? Did you damage the base? Or are you just kidding me?
I figured the jam and slam would work; that was the only way I could ever get the nut off.
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Nah, the base is fine, just the way you like it, too...there is none on the narrow side! Back when they made tools right, eh? Thought I might rig it for the ez guide, seein's how it's an 8 1/4 and all...and that thing's heavier than my miter saw<G>probably would cut better, too ) There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Ernest H. Shepard
Snort, I forgot about that saw having the open face.
I had to buy a new saw and I left the table on it for the last week. I'm working with two saws, one open, one with the stock table. The only reason I left it on was to remember and find out how awful it is to work with a saw like that. The guy on the other side of the table is using it the most, but occasionally I'm over there cutting with it.
My conclusion: The stock table makes it very difficult to make many of the cuts that I routinely do. It also makes it IMPOSSIBLE to make a lot more cuts that I do. It also causes me to jam the blade alot. The difference is substantial.
I know why the old PCs were built that way now.
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So - all we need to do is call your name to bring you up out of lurkerdom, eh?is that anything like Purgatory?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" I myself wouldn't even think of working on the second floor without a set of stairs to walk up."
There you go again - exposing me to another whole new way of thinking - don't you ever stop, Teach?I always stuck an old short ladder section in the stairwell, and saved framing the stairs for a rainy day after the roof was dried in. Clear days are at a premium here, but I can sure see the convenience and safety factor in framing the flight first.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry Piffin.
We don't do the dryin thing here, so that thought never occurred to me. I just try to do each phase in the most logical order, hoping to shave as much time as I can off each house.
Building the stairs first is a big time saver. And you are right, it is much safer especially when carrying tools and boxes of nails. I tend to avoid as much ladder work as possible.
Try it on your next one, you'll never go back to the ladder thingy.
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coming from a roofing background, ladders are second nature for me. Can still walk one without holding on, but I have to think about the guys. They don't make me money if they are laid up.
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Blue I noticed that sidewall, when I saw the pictures of the cone. One of the things that is neat about living in a rural area, I don't now but I grew up in western Pa and spent a lot of years in rural Md, is that I got to see a lot of old farm houses with framing and finish peculiarities. And I've come to very much appreciate when people when faced with a problem coming up with a common sense solution. Especially when its two old German farmers and the house is 150 yrs old. So I appreciate your approach, actually your tenacity in all cases I've witnessed towards problem solving and sharing results. That is definitely the quickest field frame I've ever seen for a curve. Also the first curve I've ever seen required of the framers. There lucky they had you as a subOh by the way I'm off to keep an eye on those pesky drywallers. They're beginning their second phase this morning. I'll try to nip the dilemmas in the bud
Edited 7/16/2005 7:36 am ET by quicksilver
C'mon Blue, that's not his head that he is scratching
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin: I didn't think you'd notice!
Gunner: I hope you didn't have to stay up too late. I hate staying up past my bedtime. Luckily, I only had a few pics to post.
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As always it was worth it.
We are all in this together.
http://www.hay98.com/
Nice piece of work and the one photo shows the lake and neighbours, looks like a great neighbourhood. Why don't you guys get the roof on so you can do stairs and all the non load bearing partitions out of the weather?
Have a good day
Cliffy
Cliffy, it doesn't work that way here. We don't "dry it in". All we do is rough frame; no shingles, no tarpaper, no roofing materials at all. When we put the roof ply on, were usually gone in two days.
I would be opposed to setting trusses without the interior partitions. It's a lot easier setting trusses when you have a lot of interior partitions already standing. It's also a lot harder framing the interior partitions when the trusses are up because their harder to tilt up. Lastly, I don't like putting drywall backing on off of ladders, and I don't like nailing the backing in the tight spaces created by the roof ply near the eaves.
And finally, it only takes one framer, one day to do all the interior partitions, unless he's a rookie.
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Verrry Innterresting.....very different from a laminated shop made product.......tho, as a mostly trim guy, I'd have to trim one out to pass judgement....like to see how it's rocked & trimed...
Just curious, is the final stair open on both sides?
No Jr. The outside radius will have a wall behind it. The boys built this different than I woud too. I always have all the surrounding walls done, then extend my risers from the inside radius all the way to the surround wall. I'll be able to point out why my method is better after the wall is standing.
We might not work on the supporting walls till after the roof is being sheathed.
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