*
Blue,
I had to read this post several times to absorb your method. I think that I see how it works now, has to be 7 inches for the two 2×4’s to come together to make up inside radius and staples let the studs fold “accoridian style”. Good idea. I like the part about it plumbing itself.
What are you using for the treads, and risers, thickness, etc. Are they screwed and glued, or nailed and glued? Something tells me a new blade in the sawsall is part of your plan. Am I getting close?
Montana Mike
Replies
*
Blue;
Was your rookie in amarillo framimg a two curved set of stairs about two years ago? I trimmed out this set of stairs in pecan, might as well be concrete for how hard it is, the treads and risers were not even, level or symetrical, the best solution would have been to tear the frame down and start over but the boss didnt see things that way.
If your stringer method is the accordian type as
aluded to, it would have definite possibilities with
better than standard framing lumber, I think I would
joint and face seasoned material before useing it
in this application. That is because I am a recovering perfectionist and dont like much variance in materials.
I always cut my plates with the router on an arm,
useing 3/4 inch plywood, and I lay out my tread run from about 18 inches off of the inside radius being
carefull to allow that balluster lay out will work on both the inside and outside radi. I find that not very many archetects can get all of the numbers and configurations accurate, so that there are no problems with the framing and finish and I check them real close before I start a set of stairs of
any kind.
After the frame is done, I use the frame for a form to make the skirt board and handrail on. It is nearly a fool proof method with a little care and consideration. If the stair skirts and the risers
are to be mitred and open ,I build radiused shoot boards for a right and left handed skill saw and cut
the mitres with skillsaws.
This pecan set of stairs made the owner of this large custom, 10000 ft under the roof, want to do an exorcism on the stair fairy before it was over with.
He kept asking me how much longer, and right out of the money pit came my reply "two more weeks".
To me stair work should be treated the way we treat drywall work around here, the one who hangs it has to finish it. I cringe every time I go to look at a
stair frame I have to finish out after someone else
framed it, its kind of like going into a returant and setting down to a table and eating the left overs from someone elses meal.
Plywood plates and knowing the finished floor materials are two key items.
brisketbean
*
Nice drawing!
Drew a spiral stairway in 3d in datacad this week (3d model), but had to scrap it when I found out how much it was actually going to cost. The typical costs the manufacturer quotes in family handyman magazine ads don't apply to stairways that have to meet UBC standards. Off by a factor of 4 or more, and that didn't include shipping.
*In this particular sub, I use 2x treads and 2x risers.The rookie notched a 2x12 riser to bear on each stud, nailed to the face of the next stud. He then nailed a 2x4 ledger that would hold the 2x12 tread. I have some concerns about the possibility of the riser splitting at the notch, especially since there is additional pressure on each riser from the tread. I suppose I'll talk him into supporting the notched riser with an additional ledger or hanger.This set up would work well with 3/4" plywood. In other subs, i've used 1" plywood. I like the stability of plywood, especially the special ordered, 1" stuff.Glue is helpful, and screws are quieter. To date, we have not had any complaints with the system. Currently we're nailing, with glue where appropriate.Of course, the trimmers probably are grumbling about something or another (hear that Brisketbean?) but we can't afford take all day to do one day's pay, can we?I'm sure the rookie will be firing up his sawzall on monday. If he loosens up the connection to each riser, and simply trims the tops of each stud, each rise will be able to be slightly repositoned higher by inserting an appropriate shim. I'll suggest that he trims each to receive a uniform shim of 3/4". That will make the repair look good, and keep the confidence level high with the homeowner. Or, maybe we'll have more firewood! We can always use that in winter.Incidently, the 7" run at the inside radius is important for providing a comfortable run at the "line of travel". The actual run ends up being 9" with a 1.25" nosing. This is typical of the most stairs built here in MI.blue, a stair bildin' fool in MI"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder..."
*Now I'm jealous. Blackly jealous!blue, or is that black?
*I've also used a router to cut plates in the past. In this system, I eliminate the plates. The drywall hangers skin the wall before trim (obviuosly), and the stairs are trimmed using a cut and mitered nosing. The trimmers have not complained about our work. We do however attempt to verify floor thicknesses before we start our calculations. That in itself could be it's own thread.Your 18" "line of travel" sounds right to me. My 7" run provides for a 9" run and a 1.25" nosing. It is comfortable enough and also passes code.I kinda lost you when you said "radiused shoot boards". Could you elaborate?Around here, we tend to specialize. Roughers don't trim, and vice versa. I don't like to switch tools, and so I chose rough. If the stairs are not good, I'd get backcharged by the trimmer. So far, no back charging!Oh yeah, I use what ever lumber they ship. Once, some uncouth demo contractor dumped a pile of pallets on the lot I was working on. I already had the circular stairs built, with a lot of grumbling about pulling the nails, when the real stair load was dropped!Oh well, some of us learn the hard way.blue, still wondering what to do with all the extra stair lumber in MI"Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot."
*
Blue,
Confidence levels of owner and rookie are sometimes fragile things. Sounds like you give them opportunity to learn by doing. Its a powerful teacher. Undoing is the only teacher more powerful.
I’m sure he will appreciate your suggestions on repairs without replacement. We’ve all been down that road before I usually say to them, "Don’t feel too bad about it, I used to have this developmentally disabled fella work for me and he used to do the same darn thing." Then watch their face. If you can keep from chortling to yourself, least that’s what I do.
Leave them some rear end left so they can climb back up on the horse, and get back in the saddle again.
Montana Mike
Remember, "If you want a place in the sun, you’ve got to put up with a few blisters."
*Blue: Do you use a straight shoot board for anything? The radiused shoot board postions the saw bladeperpendicular to a point on the radiused piece of trim, it also sets the angle for the plumb cut and furnishes a fence to run against. If you dont trim then you probally wouldnt have a use for a radiused shoot board, but you could use astraight shoot board for a lot of things in framing. Nap time brisketbean
*
Brisket, I don't think I use a shoot board for anything! I trim rarely, and out in the rough, I don't run into that many situations that can't be handled by something other than a good eye and a little luck.
I used to work off a saw buck, you know the onsite radial arm saw wannabe. I gave up that beast years ago.
Most of our mitres are true 45's. The bastard hips force us to be a little creative: many are greater than 45 and the saw won't adjust that far. I simmply whack it at the appropriate angel with the table set at 90. After one cut, I usually know the angle that I need.
Is a shoot a fence of some sort?
Blue, still curious in MI
*Heres an update on the riser problem MIke.It turns out that he had correctly figured the rises properly, and cut them right too! It seems that the cantilevered header that we were aiming for was not quite level. He simply re-leveled the header and presto, he was within tolerances.Simple 5 minute fix!The stairs look great...not too shabby for a 10 month rookie (he made every decision himself, including the stairwell hole for the basement). I don't think he will ever have a tougher set to build. These circular stairs are open below for the last 6 risers! The headroom problems are complicated and there is very little room for error.blue, Happy in Mi"We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then things get worse."
*
Just goes to show, that sometimes "the old blind sow finds and acorn." It’s hard enough building a wall straight with the lumber we get now, when its hangin off in the air somewhere makes it more of a challenge. I’m glad for how it worked out for you both.
We don’t get to build circular stairs very often around here, but I’m going to remember your system and maybe use it sometime future, when needed. I think that it could be a time saver (= money).
I do appreciate your tip, seems like it could go into FH tips and you get a T-shirt or something, you know that section of the mag in the beginning, maybe they pay something even, at any rate this was a worthy tip. Thanks for sharing it with all that are interested.
Montana Mike wishin I was back in Montana
Remember: To get something done a committee should consist of no more than three people, two of whom are absent.
*
I only have concerns about terminology. The comment that 'the 7" run at the inside radius...ends up being 9" with a 1.25" nosing'. I'm not sure what the exact term should be, "actual tread" or "finished tread size", but "actual run" isn't it. Maybe someone else has a better term.
Run, at least as defined by the code, is not affected by nosing. Otherwise we could build a vertical stairway with 11" nosing. Run should be used to describe edge of nosing to edge of nosing or back of tread to back of tread I think.
I think your layout system with the 7" inside tread depth is a brilliant idea and would make an interesting article in the magazine. For tall walls I might consider some kind of steel cross strap (on back side, attached with screws) as I'm concerned that the studs might warp and the staples might pull away from the studs as they are so close to the edge of the 2x. But I'm not sure how wide your staples are and I may be overly conservative.
*Thanks for the vote Gary. I don't know where I used the term "actual run" but nevertheless:I didn't mean to confuse you by adding the word "actual". Just eliminate the adjective and you have the entire meaning.Maybe I should have just left out the 1 1/4" nosing comment. After all, it is assumed that a nosing must be present to pass code.You are 100% corrct that the "run" does not include the nosing. The tread is composed of both the run and the nosing.I was trying to point out that there is a critical dimension needed to obtain a code conforming, set of circular stairs. In the past, I have used several dimensions. I now try to start with the 7" run so I can employ the double stud method. I have used 7.25" satisfactorily. I then use a 2x8. It is faster and might eliminate some of the bowing concerns. I usually don't have enough 2x8's on site though. Years ago, we usually started with a 2x6. This won't pass codes today.Your concern for bowing is well founded. I normally re-staple the backside after the unit is standing. I have strapped it with brick ties, but found that to be overkill. If the studs are going to bow, twist or cup, I'm sure they would notice it prior to drywall and they would be sure to let me know.Blue, finally using the circular set in MI,"IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got."
*Thanks for the nice compliment Mike. You bring up a good subject: cantilevered joists and headers. Maybe I'll start a new topic.By the way, why aren't you in Montanna anymore?Blue, still in MI"When you do a good deed, get a receipt, in case heaven is like the IRS."
*Stair nosing...Seems I read that the code writing groups and scientific stair hazard studying groups are considering reducing nosings, possibly to no nose someday...Where did I read that..Jack : )
*That doesn't sound right. I know that the powrs that be want a shorter rise 7 1/4.I think nosings are critical. Brain Fart maybe?Blue
*
'Round these parts (North Carolina) the code reads (and has for years): "When the risers are closed, all treads may have a projection not to exceed 1 inch." Now, pass that along to the landing tread manufacturers.
I want to hear more about brisketbean's radiused shooting board.
*Holland; Wish I had the talent with the graphics that Joe has, but alas, I do good to even get the computer on and off with out crashing it. A picture is truly worth a thousand words, Ill try to keep it under a thousand. My radiused shoot board is a piece of plywood, sized for each individual project as needed, thatserves as a table for the skillsaw to ride on to cut the mitres on radiused stair aprons to the stair risers. The base is oriented to be perpendicular to a section of the arc of the radius where the saw blade will come through the base to make the 45 degree mitre to the mitered riser. The flat piece of plywood that the saw rides on is manipulated to be perpendicular to the section of the arc with blockingeither in the center or on the two ends dependingon wether it is an inside radius or an outside radius. The base has a ledger board screwed to it to orient the path of the cut to be plumb with the world and usually about a 32 to 34 degree angle from the edgeof the skirt board. The job usually takes an inside shoot board and an outside shoot board,one made for a left handed skill saw, and one for a right handed skill saw. It usually takes me an hour or so to make the set of shoot boards for a stair, but the accuracy of the cut is worth the effort. I also put a stop on the shoot board so I dont cut too far. The rigs are foolproof if you know what I mean,but then as Ive heard it said, "they will maka better fool" brisketbean
*
blue,
Apparently in studying stairs and tripping the less the nosing, the less the tripping...the testers didn't expect to find this out either...can't remember where I saw this but...
Jack : )
*Around here (MI) we would fail to pass code with less than a 1" nosing. Typically we use a 10 1/4 yellow pine tread and a white pine riser. The run is almost always 9". That leaves a 1.25" nosing. All interior stairs have closed risers.I don't like to walk on stairs without nosings. Many times, we build temporary stairs up to the house without the nosing. I find it much harder to navigate. I'd be interested in the study.Blue
*A picture would be worth a thousand words in this case.I'm kinda getting the picture. A shoot is some type of template that allows you to create the "sawtooth" skirt board that intersects with the risers. Right?Around here, the stair trimmers eliiminate that portion on the stair systems. They drywall to the face of the rough riser, then cap and trim it with some combination of moulding. The tread is cut and mitred, and returned. It looks very clean when done, and is quite fast to assemble.Blue
*blue,The nose or not to nose article might have JLC and therefore might be searchable on their website...Jack : )
*blue,The "nose or not to nose" article might have been in the JLC and therefore might be searchable on their website...Jack : )
*Blue, What code does MI affliate with? NC uses CABO (Council of American Buiding Official).I'm surprised they're so different. Guess that's bureaucraps for ya.One more thing, what size are the boats on your feet?
*We use BOCA.I'll flag down the inspector and find out what he says.I've never built a set with less than 1 1/4" nosing in 25 years!The lumber yards send out "tread stock". It measures 10 1/4" x 1 1/2". We also use a 9" run. That leaves a 1.25 nosing.Blue
*Blue, interesting, our tread stock is 11 1/4" x 1" and we usually have to rip it to 11". Most of our landing tread comes with an 1 1/4" nose , which we have to modify to an inch or less. Stuff must come from Michigan, damn, it's imported. Tripping along lightly, BillyP.S. I'm using your method on the next curved wall I have to make. Where do I send the royalties?
*Easy there Billy BoyWhat royalites? Don't start giving that boy no more ideas. Have to up my rate to cover all the things I've learned over the years.............b Never put hand behind board and pull trigger on nail gun
*You must be building stairs with a 10 1/4" run then eh bucksnort?We typically just use 3/4 t&g ply for our landings.Send all royalties fast!Blue
*Don't be discouraging Billy when he comes up with such a brilliant idea!Blue, laughinf about hte hand behind the board trick!
*I said I had to rip 'em. Finished tread comes out about 11", with a 1" overhang or less, as previously stated, and debated. Landing tread is a trim thing. 5/4 bull nosed nose, rabbeted out to 3/4" at the back, which fits over that ply you put down, if you framed the stairs right.And like I said, next set of circular stairs I do, you're in for some North Carolina Barbecue.Bill, you give me something I can use, and quit trying to get Jana in the sack, and you're in for some too.
*yes - it's an ADA thing - toe catcher on ascent.By the way, codes for circular stairs are changing also - restricted to fewer occupants and mostly won't be as tight as radius.
*
I think I've got a pretty clever technique for building circular stairs. I'll post my method after the Red Wings whup Chicago, if my ISP isn't too swamped!
I got a first year man working on his first set alone, and whew did he blow it!
All good methods, and horror stories welcome!
blue, chuckling in MI about his rookie.
"A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory."
*I like that quote! Don't be surprised to see it in my collection!Blue
*Ok heres my technique for building circular stairs. It's a refined version from an ex-partner of mine.Of course, you have to find the basics: number of rises, etc.Each inside radius run is figured at 7". I layout the center of the radius and draw the inside arc of the radius. I then layout the backside of each riser and snap a line through each point like spokes on a wheel. The line is extended to the outside wall that will carry the wide portion of the stair system.Now comes the trick. The inside wall of the radius will be built using two 2x4 stud "on the flat". I lay them down flat in the foyer bumping them up tight to a wall. I cut two of each, the appropriate length, and then squeeze them tight as I staple them together, using my Paslode wide crown stapler, on the inside of the radius. I use 1 1/4 long staples at about 8" oc. It assembles surprisingly fast!I then get help and we stand the entire "stringer" up and toenail it to the line. It automatically plumbs itself, and is quite sturdy.We then, usually team up, and assemble the remaining treads and risers, using the stringer as our starting points, and the original "spoke" lines as our outer radius guides.This method has shaved about 25% off the required time. It also has eliminated the "whoops, I'm running out of room at the top" dilema.My rookie, who has assembled two or theree sets with me, simply goofed on his riser math, ending up with a 8 1/2 riser at the top. He is 4 treads from finishing, and he will be quite disappointed on monday when he comes in and finds out that he has to start over (he had to take off Friday, and expected someone else would have finished it). I'm anxious to hear what his "fix" is going to be! I've got a few ideas, but it ain't going to be fun!I'm game for an easier method. Lay it on me!Blue, tripping in MI if the rookie keeps going"Lead me not into temptation, I can find it myself."
*Blue,I had to read this post several times to absorb your method. I think that I see how it works now, has to be 7 inches for the two 2x4’s to come together to make up inside radius and staples let the studs fold "accoridian style". Good idea. I like the part about it plumbing itself. What are you using for the treads, and risers, thickness, etc. Are they screwed and glued, or nailed and glued? Something tells me a new blade in the sawsall is part of your plan. Am I getting close?Montana Mike
*blue...as in "out of theblue"..or.."on a blue streak"...I like this speedy prefab "all-in-one-der""stair-wall" "the devil made me doit" system.Such simplicity's found once in a blue moon, if that.Bravo, bravo, b I bow to the devil, and fiddle not,with thee ways...Jack : )Seven inch run/radius............."I wander now.....hmmmm........ if that wouldmatch up with the beanstalk?"...............