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We just bought a post-war era house. A couple of months after moving in, the old codger next door casually mentioned that if it rained hard enough, it wasn’t unheard of for the city sewer to back up into our basement (he knew the previous owner).
As we plan to eventually (re) finish the basement, I am wondering if there are any advance steps to be taken to address this problem?
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Replies
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First off check your insurance policy. Mine will not cover sewer backups unless a seperate rider is purchased.
Second, check with the sewer department. It may be fruitless, but give them a shout.
Frank
*You may wish to consult a professional plumber. There are check valve systems available to prevent a sewer back-up.
*Was that info included in the seller's disclosure? If the neighbor knew, certainly the seller knew, you may have some financial recourse. Or, let it ride, and take advantage of your new source of (heavy metal-laced) garden compost.
*Sue the seller! This should been disclosed, unless they didn't know (ha!) or watermarks on the walls were already apparent or you signed on to "as-is." (Oops.)The health hazard here is significant. Be careful if you do get a flood, and get to work before you one. Insurance, check valves, sump pumps, etc.P.S. Hey Mongo, you're thinking more like a lawyer! (hee-hee)
*P.S. Hey Mongo, you're thinking more like a lawyer! Andrew,Must be time for me to get that lobotomy.Oops, wife just told me to be more accurate in my posts, so...change that to "Must be time for me to get another lobotomy."
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Just can't bring myself to sue--probably more hassle than just fixing the damn thing. Will look into check valves. Will also provide the old owner with some heavy-metal cucumbers from my new garden!
Thanks for the advice!
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Roger,
It's not a matter of running out and filing suit. That's way down the road.
Review the paperwork and see if it was indeed included in the disclosure. And, to me at least, there is a difference between disclosure of an occasionally wet basement and a basement that occaionally fills with sewage.
After reviewing the paperwork I'd first contact the realtor that handled the transaction and lob a round in their direction. Get a reaction and run from there.
*Roger,
View Image © 1999-2000"More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly." Woody Allen
*Hey Joe:That's interesting about NY. Here in VA in both new construction in Northern VA and old houses in Richmond ( new houses tend not to have basements, but that is another thread ) have basement bathrooms, or at least a toilet. Very handy when doing laundry. The main overflow source is the floor drain that is plumbed to the sewer system. Both the basement floor drains and the drain in the exterior stairwell will be hooked to the sewer system. Eliminates the need for a sump pump.Frank
*Frank,
View Image © 1999-2000"More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly." Woody Allen
*Ain't spousal support great!
*Roger, of course we were being flippant saying you should run out and sue. Tthreatening to sue is a pretty good way to ensure you WON'T be able to work out a sensible deal with the seller. Litigation costs being what they are, a lawsuit might not pay a penny.It's just that they should have fixed this problem, rather than unloading it on you. I don't think a house that gets sewer water in the basement can be represented as habitable. The fix may be expensive -- you KNOW how much plumbers cost -- and maybe an offer to "settle" for splitting the cost 50:50 will go over easy. After all, they KNEW this day might come, that you'd figure out they'd "forgotten" something. Heck, it's worth a letter. (If you pursue it, get some legit legal advice on tactics first -- from a local lawyer -- and keep copies of everything. A 30-min preliminary legal consult might cost only $30.)In VA, from when we shopped for houses, basement baths are common ... often just a lonely toilet in the middle of the unfinished basement! I would think it's about elevation -- our basement floor is probably only slightly below street grade, thanks to the elevated foundation and rise in the ground slope.... but ... i may look into check valves when i deal with replacing some of the old cast iron drainage ... i'd be happier with a backup battery-powered sump anyway ...
*andrew:OK, I give, why would you replace your cast iron sewer pipe to the street if it isn't clogged or broken? You can splice it with no hub clamps and fittings for modifications. Cast iron is so much quieter than plastic. No noise problem under concrete though.But I do not understand the want of a battery powered sump when the basement already gravity drains to the sewer. Sounds like a poor and expensive solution to a non existant problem. It takes a lot of battery to power 1/2 hp for any period of time. I have a 24vdc to 120vac dynamotor (motor-generator set) I tried to use on my parent's sump pump during power failures. I got them a generator-much more practical.Frank
*Hmmm.....I would have guessed that thinking like a lawyer is evidence that you've already had the lobotomy!Rich Beckman
*Frank - A surface (rain) water drain hooked up to the sanitary sewer (did I understand your post correctly?) is illegal in many, many municipalities. Surface water inflow and infiltration ( I & I ) into the sanitary lines can be a major problem. Where we live, it got so bad that they had to weld certain sanitary manholes to the frames and water would shoot 5-6 feet into the air through the fingerholes. After a lot of in-pipe camera documentation, it finally cost over $10 million to fix. The municipality regularly conducts smoke tests and fines residents for illegal sump pump and drain hookups to sanitary.It is also very, very important for folks to realize that drains operate in two directions under the worst circumstances.b Been there, done that, pumped it out ..
*Jeff:Yes, you understood correctly.It is interesting the different approaches different area have for the same situations. Here in north central VA currently in new construction I see stairwell drains and basement floor drains connected into the county sewer system.In Richmond back in the mid 80's my father had to hook up to the county water/sewer system to replace the well/septic system he was using due to termite insecticide showing up in the well water. The plumber had to hook up the sump pump discharge to the sewer system instead of dumping on the back of the property like it had for the previous 35 years. The sump collected water from the basement stairwell and below the slab.I owned a commercial building in the City of Richmond and its gutter system drained into the city sewer system. Of course the building was very old ( 100 years) and predated any thought of separate sanitary sewer and storm sewer systems. Heck, until the mid 80's the city had Shockoe Creek empty into the sewer system to be treated at the Wastewater Treatment Plant. At that point the million dollar plus Shockoe Diversion Pumping Station was finished and the creek could go to the James River without sanitary sewage. Frank
*Without a deep seal trap, trap primer (not in a residence) or at least a bucket of water from time-to-time, there is a real risk of sewer gas emanating from that basement floor drain hooked up to sanitary.Jeff, a fellow Virginian (originally)
*Oh God, I'm not replacing the line to the street, but am debating replacing the trap that is buried in the slab before tiling. Of course the line is clogged, at least sclerotic with rust the way 60 y.o. cast iron gets.I assume the storm sewer and septic sewer are separate.... [oh, OK, I see the answer is yes -- irritating the way check messages serves them up in reverse order.] The STORM sewer isn't much below us, in fact the street floods pretty easily, and of course the county prohibits discharging rainwater into the septic system. Supposedly the sewage is treated before going into the Potomac or wherever they dump it.On sewer leakage -- part of the Harbor Cleanup in Boston was relining the sewers to stop leaks ... INTO the lines. It never had occurred to me to worry about leakage that way, but ground water infiltration increased the amount of wastewater they had to purify by about 50% and lowered the threshold where a storm forced them to discharge untreated waste into the Bay.We live near an underground river and the water table comes up quick during heavy storms -- a number of basements on the neighborhood flood easily. The conventional pump kicks in regularly during storms, less since I improved the roof drainage. Because operation is light and intermittant, a battery-backup unit ought to do fine. It is apparent that someone put a bunch of money into remediating flooding problems some years ago. Although the grading is basically correct the slope is so shallow that the water just doesn't go away quickly enough.Basically, who wants to spend of bunch of time and money on the basement to worry over getting it ruined by a slow-but-soaking flood while you're away? (I think we're maybe 50 feet above sea level, actually -- not much slope!) Missed out a pump at deep discount the other day. Anyway ... the list of things to deal with first is long!
*Actually, I think the point of lobotomies was to stop violence and aggression (by practically destroying higher brain function) -- you wouldn't want a passive lawyer, now would you? :)
*Yes!!!!I have had to add water to unused toilets to refill the traps to stop "that smell". Floor drains will evaporate the same way.Frank
*andrew:Count your blessings you are not having to replace the line to the street. We have a friend in Fairfax county whose line is broken as it goes under the pavement. It still drains, but slower due to the smaller net opening. Think clean break and vertical displacement of one half. The county says She has to pay to dig up the street since they claim she owns the pipe all the way to the main.By trap being clogged, is this just the trap for the floor drain? The rest of the DWV piping is open and working OK? I have used wire, snakes, compressed air and water to flush out floor drains in my shop. Compressed air and water can even move sand out of traps. Rust scale might need the scraping of a snake or rod.If your house is 60 y.o. then it probably only has a sanitary sewer hookup. I am not familiar with the Arlington system. The sewage is treated somewhere before it goes into the Potomac. Even DC treats its sewage ( Blue Plains Treatment Plant on the Anicostia River by I-295)I was very familiar with Richmond, as I worked in the Wastewater Treatment Plant there. When I was there the city still had many miles of combined sanitary and storm sewer system. When it rained and the capacity of the system was reached, overflow doors would open to the James River to releive the system. Of course the percentage of untreated sewage to rain water and river water was minute, but the city started running new storm sewer lines to correct the problem. The city first started laying water lines in 1832, so the whole water/sewer system has some very old parts.I take it you live in a valley and not on one of the hills in Arlington if you are only 50 feet above sea level. I also see you do use a sump pump. So you have a sump pump and a floor drain? If so, I would guess it is for the reason you stated, high ground water. The sump tries to get rid of the ground water before it enters the basement to flood and then exit through the floor drain. Do they make a 12 volt sump pump? If they did, then you would need a deep cycle RV battery(s) and a trickle charger. If I put money into a finished basement then I would like a belt and suspenders approach to flooding also. Nothing worse than wasting time and money. This need for slope away from the house is why I put alot of thinking into what lot I needed to buy for this house I built. I wanted a simple ( non powered) way to keep the basement dry. I have both a perimeter drain outside of the foundation that goes to daylight and an inside the gravel drain that goes to daylight. And the house is on a hill so rainwater naturally flows away from the house in all directions. So I can't play croquet is my tradeoff. The basement floor drain also goes to daylight, which is good because I drain my condensing furnace and AC evaporator into this line. You cannot drain the furnace into the septic tank because it is not good for the bugs.Frank
*Frank & Andrew, A marine supply can provide a 12V bilge pump to use as a sump pump. Same thing, but the consequence of your boat's cellar flooding is worse. Boat sinks until the mooring lines or the bottom stops it if it's at the dock. A solar battery charger & you're set. Joe H
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I guess one of the big issues with bringing this all to the realtor/previous owner now is that the only evidence I have is the statement of one 86 year old neighbour regarding the possibility of the sewer backing up. There is no obvious water damage beyond that resulting from water coming in through foundation leaks (another story). I don't think that anyone will put up cash for an expensive fix without more evidence of the problem.
The system here is unified sewer and storm, so all water and waste goes into the same system, which is why the sewer would back up in rainy times.
The likely source, as many have noted, is the floor drain. This house also has a lonely toilet sitting between the stack and a laundry tub.
I have heard that check valves are easily defeated by debris preventing them from closing properly--is this true?
This is a small house for my family of four (1000 sq. ft), and so finishing the basement would be a nice thing to be able to do. Half the basement was finished in the 70's (judging by the red carpet and wood panel walls), and seems to have sustained water damage from springtime leaks, though it doesn't look like it has been submerged in sewage in recent times.
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Actually, you have the legal theory backwards -- if there were good evidence of sewer backup, the seller would be able to say you were on notice (whether you in fact noticed or not). If there's no evidence, but you can show the seller's knowledge of the condition -- say, he/she complained to the old neighbor about sewage in the basement -- seller loses for non-disclosure ... assuming there was no as-is you-lose clause in the contract and the seller did not lie to you. (An affidavit from the (competent?) 86 y.o. is a good start -- and there's nothing wrong with his age!) There are also statute of limitations rules limiting the amount of time you have to file after discovering the problem or after the sale.
Check with a lawyer if you have any interest in a legal remedy. (I'm not practicing law here.) If not, it's your choice, and I can understand your not wanting an extra headache. But if you let a good claim lapse, it's no different than writing a check to the seller for no reason (i.e., seller ought to have fixed it or sale price ought to have been lower).
Key word for the day: S-E-T-T-L-E Some money is better than nothing, and a letter from your lawyer might be all it takes. Good luck!
Joe: bilge pump, good idea, and I like the solar cell idea. I've been wanting a standby low-voltage power source for things like the doorbell, caller id, other battery-powered knick-knacks, etc -- all them little transformers are getting on my nerves, and they actuaslly waste a significant amount of power running warm 24 hours a day....
Frank: Would a low-voltage in-house DC bus be practical? I remember DC doesn't travel well.... I figured on say a 24VDC 12-gauge bus (spliced NM scraps?) along with the data cables I'll string, DC yielding less interference, plus various voltage regulators in connectors to the device "outlets." I hate buying all these !*&%# batteries. Ok, this whole idea is a bit nerdy, so i figured you'd like it....
Not sure where cast-iron has its problem, probably everywhere. I blew it out a while ago with one of those expanding garden hose attachments. I'm afraid to bang it around to much & maybe break it ... also I bet there are some tree roots in it somewhere. But if ain't (really really) broke, don't mess with it....
Yeah, Grainger's and the better plumbing supplies have automatic 12V sump pumps. Expensive at $300. Our sump discharges at the curb. Why am I concerned? Heard a lot of plumbers grousing about how the life expectancy of the pumps keeps getting shorter (as little as 2 years), and if it's your lifeline....
Er, what was the topic?
*The topic was sewer backup. DC bus follows so well..... Maybe I should make a new topic?I have thought about DC bus in a house. 12 vdc could be very useful for many applications. The drawback is limited power. 12 ga copper in a cable is capable of 20 amps, whether 12 vdc or 460 vac. So at 12 vdc you only get 240 watts of power where as at 120 vac you get 2400 watts. So 10 ga or 8 ga would be needed for small motor applications.The dc vs ac wars and the theory of dc not traveling well over great distance was applicable to transmission from city to city. Inside a house would be fine. Edison ran dc all over New York City. My uncles talked about shavers running faster on dc (110 vdc) so the dc must have still been available in the early 1930's. There has been some talk about using high voltage dc for transmission lines and utilizing new solid state dc to ac converters because you need one less conductor than a typical three phase transmission line. I do not know if one was built.Many farms used a 32 vdc system powered by windmills or Delco generators and batteries. These were replaced when the REA funded co-ops to run wires every where. BTW DELCO was started by Boss Kettering of GM fame and stood for Dayton Electric Lighting Company.I would use a 12 vdc bus instead of 24 vdc because many more things work on 12 than 24 unless you are a collector of Uncle Sam's surplus. You would still need a regulator to drop the 12 vdc to what ever the lower voltage the device needed for all those 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5, etc. applications. So you would still have some type of wall wart, just not a transformer style. It should run cooler when not powering the device. Also, many 12 vdc to device regulators are available because they are car adapters. A deep cycle battery would be ideal for the storage device on this system.More useless trivia: Early doorbells were battery powered. They typically used two #6 ignitor cells ( those big dry cells with screw binding posts used in school experiments in the 50's and 60's 1.5 vdc). Transformers became popular because people didn't like changing the batteries.
*I know you can get the DC bus from where you live, Frank. Should take about two and a half hours. :)Jeff
*If he/she was representing the other side,i sure!Rich Beckman
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We just bought a post-war era house. A couple of months after moving in, the old codger next door casually mentioned that if it rained hard enough, it wasn't unheard of for the city sewer to back up into our basement (he knew the previous owner).
As we plan to eventually (re) finish the basement, I am wondering if there are any advance steps to be taken to address this problem?