Hi.
Just wanted to post a quick question on wooden clapboards.
I’ve been checking into quartersawn clapboards from a couple of places and was told that they’re only about 7/16″ on the butt.
Does this seem a bit thin to you folks….possibly prone to splitting? I’m sure using the proper fastener is critical but I had been expecting something more like 5/8″.
Any advice or experience with such claps would be great to hear.
Thanks
Dave
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Replies
7/16" can work - I've ordered a load in yellow pine to match a house I was adding on to. Used 6p ring shank SS nails; seemed to work fine.
Forrest
Thanks for the feedback Forrest.I ordered some Maze "Slim-Jim" siding nails today, so I'll have a go at it.The clapboard suppliers that I've contacted (Granville and Ward) seem to offer basically the same product (same thickness at least), so I guess I'll just pick one and go with it.If anyone knows of other quartersawn clapboard companies to consider, I'd appreciate hearing from you.Thanks,
Dave
I'm about 2 days away from finishing the installation of about 4,000 lf of clear, vertical grained cedar siding. That's quartersawn, no? Sheathing is 1/2 CDX (with Tyvek), and most of the nailing was into studs. About 90% was hand nailed using 5p (1.75") ringshank ss siding nails (about 10 lbs of nails). Don't know the brand of nails but I did notice one box said "Made in China" ($6.99/lb). I use a 22 oz Estwing, my partner uses a 28 oz Estwing.
The remaining was nailed using a Makita siding nailer loaded with 1.75" HD galvy coil siding nails. I had maybe 2 splits, both were with the Makita. There were a couple of places where we predrilled, but only because these "boards" were less than 2 inches long. Don't know the manufacturer, it's what my local yard keeps in stock. About a quarter of the stock was 20' lengths, some 19 and 16, then a mix of 6, 7, 8, 9, and 12 footers. The material is great stuff to work with. We usually snap lines for the upper edge. We also typically pick one exposure width (usually 4 or 4.25") and stick with it, no fudging to try and get butts lined up with window/door tops or bottoms. As long as it's straight, level, and neat, it always looks great at the end.
'vertical grained' is NOT the same as quartersawn. It just means the the grain runs straight and parallel with the edge.
I hope you back primed those cedar claps before you nailed them against the tyvek. The tannins in the cedar will eat away at the tyvek and turn it into tissue paper within a few years.
Reinvent, you said that the term vertical grain "just means the the grain runs straight and parallel with the edge," and that it is "NOT the same as quartersawn."
I see you live in Boston, where they must have reinvented ways to saw logs.
In Boston, apparently, a log cant run any way through the mill, as long as it does so linearly, produces quartersawn boards. Must be something special about how they grow their trees in New England. Did they reinvent trees in Boston?
Away from Boston, or at least where I specify and buy lumber, quartersawn boards and vertical grain boards are the same thing. The are sawn more or less radially.
VG is just the western softwoods guys' way of saying quartersawn.
Unless you're getting your boards from those special Boston mills. ;-)
Rift sawn lumber is vertical grain but it is not quarter sawn. Cedar claps are any where from 6' to 16' long. I know for a fact that a mill that saws logs into quartered claps can not produce the claps longer than 8'. So when you buy bundled cedar claps they are usually longer than 8' and they say vertical grain on the lable.
Straight-grained, vertical-grained, quartersawn have always been essentially interchangeable terms for me. The saw blade is perpendicular to the annual rings and the resulting boards have straight, tightly-spaced grain.
For clapboards, "radial-sawn" creates the least waste, and every board is straight-grained. In cross-section, the log is cut into many "pie" pieces. Each piece of the pie is a single clapboard.
Rift-sawn, flat-sawn, flame-grained are the "opposite" interchangeable terms for me. The saw blade is parallel to the annual rings, with the resulting boards exposing the fewest number of early-wood/late-wood "stripes."
For experts, I'm sure the various terms have very specific meanings. But this is how my friends and I use the words.
Allen
Rift sawn and radial sawn are the same thing.
The same? Who told you that? Not really. Not for the discriminating buyer like me.
You a lumber salesman? ;-)
Riftsawn boards exhibit growth rings more like 45 degrees from the board face, while true quartersawn lumber has those growth rings vertical.
View Image
I buy white oak flooring, and can get it in an all-qs grade, and one with riftsawn stock allowed in with the qs.
And I pay more for the pure quartersawn material, of course.
I've built furniture pieces in qs white oak to the Stickley patterns, and when buying the lumber, rejected board after board of riftsawn material, searching for the true quartersawn stock. With white oak there is a big difference in the appearance of the medulla rays, qs to rift.
Edited 8/25/2006 10:43 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Oops, my error.
By the way, there are a lot of drawings of methods of sawing lumber that absolutely contradict each other.
I was thinking of radially sawing logs for clapboards. Aparently there are very few mills left that do that. See this picture of a log being radially cut. http://www.woodsiding.com/whyvg.htm
My great grandfather owned a saw mill that was steam powered. My dad worked for him when he was a boy. So I am interested in sawing lumber, and see a lot of misinformation.
Mark, yeah that's what I was picturing regarding radial sawing. Seems that produces 100 percent quartersawn clapboards, no?
Also, thanks to Gene for posting the other illustration ... I knew the terms I listed each had specific meanings. I'm gonna stop using those words interchangeably!
Allen
Mark,
I've read some articles that refer to what is shown in the attached image as a "clapboard machine" -- and that it was patented some time in the 1820s. But somehow I have this idea in my head that what is shown in the image is also called a RIFT SAW. Can you add to this at all?
I know that in hardwood terminology, the angle that the grain makes with the face of the board determines whether the board is described as quater-, rift-, or plain-sawn. However, the lack of a one-to-one correspondence of a PROCESS and a PRODUCT is confusing, to say the least.
Anyway, I'm hoping to find out if a "rift saw" exists to anyone's knowledge.
The picture is of a radial saw. The lumber produced is vertical grain (softwood), or quarter sawn(hardwood). I don't know that any still exist in operation, except for the Granville machine. Rift sawn is lumber which has the grain at approximately 45 degrees. It can be sawn that way, but usually lumber is flat sawn, and there will be some quartersawn and radial sawn lumber obtained during the process. That lumber will be graded as such.
I could be wrong, I was a couple times before.
But look at this site also. http://www.frankmiller.com/
Edited 2/17/2007 6:54 am ET by MarkH
Thanks for the reply, Mark.
What still confuses me is the fact that there seems to be no definitive process for producing rift sawn lumber. Quarter sawing, radial sawing, and plain sawing are all very clearly defined processes. It makes me wonder whether the term "rift sawn" has been bastardized at some point in history.
By the way, I'm attaching an image from another website that shows (by their definition at least) radial sawing (after quartering, in this case). This particular site also uses the terms "radial" cut to describe boards with grain perpendicular to the face and "tangential" cut to describe boards with grain parallel to the face. I like these terms and think they are more descriptive than the terms "quarter sawn" and "plain sawn" in how they relate to the final product.
Regards,
Ragnar
The problem with the "radial saw" is that it produces tapered lumber. The resulting product makes excellent siding, but would be wasteful for flat lumber.
Radial cutting after quartering produces a lot of waste also, and variable width lumber. That's bad because radial sawn lumber is used for flooring a lot.
Radial sawn pine clapboards
There is a mill in Sedgwick, Maine called Cottage Mill, LLC producing vertical grain, radial sawn eastern white pine clapboards in lengths to 16'. No knots - all clear! This is a true old-fashioned radial mill.
Their telephone number is 207-632-7028 and e-mal is [email protected]
Gene,
I'd have to agree with Reinvent in saying that 'vertical grained' is NOT the same as quartersawn.
First of all, to acknowledge what you said in your post, the term "VG" is used in the context of softwoods. But there's still a difference.
Quartersawing describes a PROCESS, not an end PRODUCT. The log is first cut into four quadrants; slabs are then alternately cut off the wide face. If you look at the attached image, you'll see that only the first, widest slabs cut in the quartersawing process actually yield a product that has the growth rings at nearly 90 degrees to the face of the board. As the pieces get smaller, the grain starts getting beyond 45 degrees to the face, in which case I don't think it can truly be described as "VG" anymore. (I think the smaller pieces are termed "rift" sawn, but that's another confusing topic for a separate post!) ;)
We get all of our CVG cedar (in lengths ranging from 6 to 20') preprimed front and back.
I am curious where you got the info on cedar and tyvek though. The subject has been beat to death here and I don't recollect anyone being able to cite any definitive study or authoritative report on the matter. Housewrap is the the same material (spun high density polyethylene) that is used to make protective overalls which are marketed by Dupont as providing "...protection against water based acids..."
Someone remembers seeing an photo (maybe in JLC) some years back that reportedly showed some disintigrated tyvek. Backpriming is a good idea in any case, but I haven't seen, heard, or read any convincing evidence indicating any chemical incompatability between cedar and tyvek.
I edited an article in FHB about 6 years ago that discussed this. The author was Mark Averill Snyder. For some research based info, go to http://www.jlconline and search "housewrap cedar", or "Paul Fisette".
There is some truth to all of this, but Tyvek gets an unfair knock because they're the Xerox of housewraps. In fact, Fisette's testing showed that Tyvek outperformed every product except tarpaper.
All of this took place years back, and housewraps may have improved. The Western Red Cedar Lumber Association has no problem with the use of any housewrap in particular behind cedar, although they require the use of either tarpaper or housewrap. They also require back and end cut priming on all painted siding. The best practice recommendation is to use factory coated claps. Cedar can be installed without painting, but when doing so, you and the client must recognize that it will then never support a long lasting paint job. This is due to the lack of back priming, and to the UV degradation of the exposed wood.
For installation standards, visit their website - http://www.wrcla.org.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
A couple more things, the nails we used to hand nail are similar to Maze's slim jims, and the butts are about 7/16ths. Good luck.
Have you checked with a local mill? When we sided our addition we wanted it to match the original so one of our local "little-guy" lumber companies came up with tapered claps that were just shy of 5/4". That plus it had the 8" exposure we needed.
Thanks again for the feedback folks.I haven't had much luck with local mills. They only wanted to sell their claps on a "mill run" basis, meaning you get a bit of everything, quartersawn and flatsawn. I've been busy repairing/painting some flatsawn boards that I installed a few years ago and I'm not too interested in doing that again.The quartersawn stuff is pricey, but so is the labour to repair/replace boards.I expect I'll be getting a start in late September, depending on delivery time.Regards,
Dave
You are on the right tract. I put an addition on my 125 year old farmhouse. I used clear quartersawn cedar for the clapboards and they are awesome. The only thing I can add that wasn't mentioned is to prime the back side of the siding before it goes up. And to a prev. post, vertical grain is the same as quartersawn. It's tight, hold's paint awesome, doesn't split nearly as much, and looks great.
over the years we've done a lot of 1x6 wood claps
they all measure 9/16 on the butt and are about 5 1/4 in width
i have to beat on people to get them to put the nails in the right place.. 1 1/2 up from the butt so the nail clears the top of the undercourse..
no clapboard should have two rows on nails in it
Hi Mike.
Mind if I ask who your usual clapboard suppliers are?
I've been in touch with both the Ward and Granville mills in Vermont. They seem to have well recommended products....very helpful folks at both places. Both make the 7/16" thickness I mentioned earlier. Prices are virtually identical.
Thanks
Dave
i would normally get them from my lumber yard: JT's
but i could also get them from Liberty Cedar, another great sourceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi again.Been getting a few quotes for the clapboards now and was hoping to get some opinions on estimating the required amount of clapboard for the job.I estimate the total surface area of the walls to be 2400 square feet (no deductions for doors and windows). If I deduct the doors and windows, the area drops to about 1850 sq ft.I've heard a few 'rules of thumb'. One says to order the full 2400 sq ft (with the window and door areas covering an allowance for waste). Another says to take the 1850 sq ft figure and bump it by 10 or 15% to allow for waste (a 15% bump would give 2128 sq ft).The building is a simple 4 walled structure with a gable roof. The clapboards (5-1/2" wide with 4" exposure) will be nailed to strapping 16"oc. The boards are apparently in the 2 to 6 ft range, with the majority being 4-6ft.Any of you folks had good luck with a particular way of estimating? Since I have to order the stuff in (with about a 4 week delivery time) my inclination is to go conservative and take the higher number. It would be about $1000 more than using the 15% rule.Thanks,
Dave
6200 - 7000 (lf) is what i would order..
but i'd probably do a take-off on each of the 4 elevations to look for obvious thingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Boards are in the 2-6 foot range?
Sounds awfully short to me, unless there's a lot of windows and doors.
Might want to pay a little more and get some boards with some length. Save some labor on fitting joints.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks as always for the feedback.
The boards are quartersawn and the somewhat short lengths seem to be a result of their sawing process and the size limitations on the equipment. Both the Ward and Granville mills are similar in this respect. I have a fair bit of vertical trim/doors/windows to contend with so that'll break up a lot of the longer lengths, but I'll definitely have quite a few joints.Dave
You can just say you are attempting to duplicate the patina of many 18th century buildings with the shorter length of claps.
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
not trying to rain on your parade but like someone else questioned majority of pieces 2 - 6' ??
one of the greatest reasons for their existence is you can go corner to corner or corner to window seamlessly
4' or less would typically be set off to the side and only hopefully get used
this is a product that sells at random lengths - for every two footer there should be a twenty or at least 14' - one of there bigger accounts is getting a volume bonus ( yardman throwing off shorts ) or paying a premium for longer lengths thus they are left w/ shorties1/4 sawn is a beautiful product but not at lengths you describe unless you are blessed w/ plethora of windows & doorshave you looked into Hardie or other cementicious siding where you can be sure to get longer lengths
for painted work should satisfy all requirements
Hi John.The website info for Ward clapboards indicates "lengths from 2-6ft with 70% being in the 5-6 ft range". It seems to be a similar situation for Granville clapboards. I think the 6 foot maximum length is a limitation on their sawing apparatus. I remember reading an article on clapboarding (I believe there's a link to the article on Ward's website). One of the points they made was that having many joints results in smaller openings at the joints when the boards shrink. An example going something along the lines of a 20ft board shrinking maybe 1/4", but if you break that run into maybe 4 or 5 boards, you'll only have 1/16" openings.A big problem for me is that I don't seem to have a local mill that can give me quartersawn boards, so I'm stuck with having to ship them in. Vinyl and cement board completely dominate the new home market around here. If you can find clapboards at all, you're stuck with having to take "mill run" which means you be buying and tossing away a lot of flatsawn boards just to get ones worth installing. I went through an expensive mistake on my last building where I used mill run boards. They were factory primed and even had one finish coat but they've been a nonstop problem with paint failures and some of the flatgrain 'pith' curling/lifting.It's a nice plus to be able to get the boards factory primed. So far I've only been able to find the Ward and Granville mills offering that with quartersawn boards.All the best,
Dave