I NEED TO CLEAN AND LIGHTLLY REFINISH OAK KITCHEN CABINETS, WE ARE GETTING READY TO SELL AND BEGIN BUILDING THE DEALER RECOMENDED A POLY SPRAY THIN APPLICATION. THIS WILL REQUIRE REMOVING GLASS PANELS AND TAKING DOORS AND DRAWERS OUT OF KITCHEN TO WORK ON. COULD I USE A DILUTED POLY WITH BRUSH OR RAG. ARE THERE ANY PRODUCTS THAT WOULD FILL SMALL SCRATCHES AND FINISH WEAR AREAS. ARE THERE ANY ARTICLES IN PUBLICATIONS THAT WOULD HELP
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put in a call for Goldhiller... this is his forte...
must be some decree that new people scream out their 1st message...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I am new, You said to call goldhiller. is that his name on the chat line
yup, he's on this forum...lose the caps, it's too loud."If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
hey mr Goldhiller.. somebody is yelling fer ya...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
it's done and welcome to BT Grant...
enjoy yer tay.. take a numer have a seat and NO cutting the line...
you can trip anybody that tries...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
one more thing (of course)...
yur profile...
how about some general inormation... click on yur name and put in what you think will work...
it's handy stuff to know... you may find ya got new neighbors...
and it helps out the GP nosey types with their cravings...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Welcome to BT, first off.
Net ettiquette has that "ALL CAPS" is "shouting" (as in a way to draw attention to the words on the screen). In some fora, this is considered "rude," and can occasionally garner harsh commentary, rather than constructive input. You could help in this and future discussions by clicking on the blue "GRANTD" and filling in some profile information. There are products that are available in some areas, some (namy) construction practices that are done "here" but not "there." Knowing just the least little bit more can help. The "what you do" can help us, too, as the advice might be different if you are a drywaller versus if you are a banker, for instance.
Now, back to your question. If you need to renew the finish on the cabinets, you should go ahead and steel yourself to removing all the doors and drawers. You should plan on emptying the cabinets (mostly) while you are at it. It really will be simpler, even if all you do is use one of the "orange oil" cleaners. Not standing on a footstool (or moving it one door at a time across the kitchen) will significantly reduce the fatigue in this effort. Which can improve the end result.
Also, having all of the "bits" down can help you see the project better. Like if ordinary fading, grime, whatever have left a "shadow" where the door overlapped the face frames. It's a good way to find all of the busted or near busted door hinges and/or door catches (these will be found while cleaning, but then they can also be forgotten, working on the next door).
Having the parts out of the cabinets also offers more "inconspicuous places" to test cleaners, solvents, refinishing agents, too (an all-too-easy uh-oh to make).
I'd start with a good cleaning of all of the wood, first. If only because you would need to clean the wood before refinishing anyway. I'd start with one of the "orange" cleaners, too, if only because they are relatively benign (no lifting the existing finish and/or stain).
Recoating/overcoating existing finishes can lead to peeling problems as not all finishes are able to bond well to one another. The easiest finishes to recoat are the evaporative finishes which are nitro-cellulose lacquer and shellac. These will burn into the previous coat and literally meld with them. (There is one fairly new water-borne lacquer on the market which shows the capability to burn into itself years later, but that's not likely what is on your cabs.)
The other types of finishes must rely entirely on mechanical bonding with the existing fully cured finish, even if that finish is the same. And using the same finish usually yields the best odds of success. For instance, trying to shoot nitro over some of the other finishes would result in wrinkling because the solvent for the nitro is lacquer thinner or MEK and that can begin partially destroying the underlying finish before it evaporates.
I'd advise doing a little testing to see if you can determine what is on your cabs and then make the decision as to what product to use in your attempt at overcoating.
Pick an inconspicuous area where you can do several spot tests and do the following.
Perform each subsequent test on a fresh test area, not on the same area each time.
1- Apply a few drops of denatured alcohol with a small piece of cloth or even a Q-tip. Leave it sit/keep it damp with the solvent for a minute or so. Then rub just a bit. Did the finish come off or get very sticky? If so, the finish is most likely shellac. If not, next test.
2- Apply a little lacquer thinner. If the finish gets soft and sticky in short order, but didn't with the alcohol above……..the finish is likely either lacquer or a water-borne.
3- If the finish got soft with test 2, try a few drops of either tolulene (toluol will do) or xylene (xylol will do). If it softens, it a water-borne.
4- If none of the above soften or remove the finish in short order, then it's likely a reactive finish like varnish.
Post results of the test and we'll see if we can guide you thru a choice of approach and finish(s).
How old are the cabs in question? This may give some indication as to the finish. Manufactured cabs or custom made?
Did you or anyone to your knowledge use Pledge or any other type of silicone-bearing furniture polish or "cleaners" on the cabs? (Liquid Gold and crap like that)
You say there are wear spots. All finish and stain color gone in these areas or just the clear finish is worn off?
If the finish is gone in areas, you can count on having contamination in the wood from stuff on your hands while the wood was handled. These areas will need to be thoroughly cleaned if the finish is to adhere well.
Any chance of posting some pics of these cabs and the worn areas?
Do you have spray equipment, the skill to use it and a place to use it?
Who is "the dealer" that recommended using a poly over the existing finish? Is this the person who sold you the cabs or the person who made them...........or neither? Please don't tell me you asked the kid behind the counter at Home Depot. LOL
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/28/2005 12:17 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
I will do the test and try to send pics.
The guy who said to spray with thin poly answered the phone at the custom cabinet place where we bought them. He was not really helpful. The cabinets are 18 years old
I will try to get pics to you, the wear is only around counters edge. We are getting ready to sell and I want to make them look as good as possible.
I have excellent eye hand control, But I have no spray experience. But there is a friend who could help.
Post the pics here on the forum if you will. The more eyes that see 'em, the better the odds that the collective experience here can offer up different viable notions.Sounded encouraging on the surface that you have custom cabs and the place is still in business. However, I wonder if the knowledge of what was used on those cabs is still available or on file somewhere. Maybe........maybe not. Doesn't sound like the guy on the phone really knew squat. Can't figure why he suggest a "thin poly". Why not put on a thicker coat if that's the proper finish for the job. Sounds suspiciously like guessin' to me. Didn't want to be caught sayin'..... " I dunno"......so he tossed something out there.Frequently enough, custom cab shops adopt a "universal" finish or two and that's what goes on everything. If a guy could find out from someone in the know there, you might find out what that finish was 18 years ago. (Look for someone old and crusty like me <G>) How many doors and such are in the mix here for a re-do? If needs be, are you prepared to strip those doors and drawer fronts? Can you tell if there was any "artificial" coloring used .....(stain, dye or such).....or are they maybe just "natural" red oak?Edit: If you don't know how to post pics here, give a holler and we'll guide you thru it. Resize your pics ahead of time if you would, so that they don't exceed 100 KB for those of us on painfully slow dial-up. Like me.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/28/2005 9:08 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
I spoke to the manufacturer. He said the cabinets were finished with converson varnish and the bull nose edge of the counter top is laquer [deft]. He said to retop coat after scuffing up surface, brush or spray. [He said use a professional]
Counter edge is laquer thinner. One thing, is that the counter tops are worn out. He said using an orbital sander,sand laminate down to black and then attach new laminate. ["solid top counter tops are a little more money but add to the selling apeal of house"] What color is the question. I can't believe that marble counter tops are more than my labor. I have a friend in the business he can get laminater at a $1.00 a sq.ft.
I have a work shop where I could set up a spray booth. I have a wall mounted propain heater in the shop I assume these solvents and finishes are very flamible.
Okay then.We still have a couple of unanswered questions. Did you or anyone else ever use any silicone-bearing products on these cabs? Are the cabs artificially colored or au-naturale?IF there have been no silicone-bearing products used……..and IF the edging was really done with the nitro (Deft), it'll will be a piece of cake to redo………provided you clean the dirt and grime off and scuff sand a bit with some 320 or 400. No heavy sanding necessary. You could even do a preliminary wipe down with some lacquer thinner just a couple minutes before applying the new finish. I'll recommend using nitro again……..but not because it's really an appropriate finish for a kitchen (cause it sure ain't), but because it will melt into the existing finish nicely. That should avoid the potential for peeling finish if you were to try using a different finish over the top of the nitro. (You can test to see if this is nitro by wiping the edging down with a cloth well saturated with lac thinner. If it melts readily and comes off , it's likely nitro.) You could consider buying your Deft in aerosol cans and taping off the edging to make this job a bit easier. PS- If there is silicone on these cabs, you're gonna encounter a little problem called fisheye, which isn't really a little problem at all…….. particularly if you have no experience dealing with it and have no spraying experience. These cabs are not really an ideal project to learn how to use a spray gun. Too much at stake. You'll know if you have silicone contamination when you apply the finish because shortly thereafter, little craters will form in the finish……………. or if the contamination is extreme on large areas, the finish will crawl away from those in a manner reminiscent of a wave.Cooking oil contamination and the like ……..can and will resemble silicone contamination, but should clean out of the wood with solvents while silicone is nearly impossible to remove thoroughly enough to avoid the resulting fish-eye problems.Now your cabs are a different matter. Conversion finishes like catalyzed lacquers, conversion varnish, moisture-cure finishes, epoxy finishes, etc. are usually/frequently problematic when it comes to repairs and overcoating. The cured product is resistant to the bonding attempts of new overcoats……….including the same product. Consequently, the only truly reliable way to renew the finish is to remove the existing and apply the new. If an attempt at overcoating is made and fails, the new finish will peel from the surface. This might happen almost immediately after it's dried and cured or it may take 6 months or even a year to occur. I won't attempt such a thing when I have to stand behind the end result….unless the client has been advised and is willing to carry the financial burden of a failed attempt. If you decide to proceed with an overcoat attempt, then I would recommend cleaning the surface well with some TSP solution (to remove common grime and dirt), rinse very well, allow the wood to dry very thoroughly, scuff sand with some 320 or 400 wet or dry paper, wipe down the surface lightly with some lacquer thinner and then just prior to applying the finish to any given area (like 10-15 minutes ahead of time) apply a "liquid sanding" product (deglosser). Make sure it has time to evaporate, but not much more before you apply the new finish. Work a door at a time. You don't' want to use the liquid sanding product an hour out in front of yourself. DON'T use Deft (nitro) for the new coating here. Either an oil-based or water-borne poly probably has a good of a chance of bonding as any other readily available off-the-shelf brush-able product. There's another product you might want to try. Your call. I have no experience with it yet, but it seems to imply that it will stick to different finishes. And it's wipe-able.http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/Fuhrfinishes.htmNote product series - 3200 If you encounter silicone contamination, wipe off the wet finish with its respective solvent as soon as you notice the problem and post back.If you don't' care to try the finish overcoating, you're in for a strip job. And conversion finishes aren't that easy to strip. Tough stuff. So use a methylene-chloride based semi-paste stripper. If you do this and your cabs have been artificially colored, you may face the task of recoloration to boot. If you try the overcoat and you want to see what the result will look like on any given area after you've done the cleaning and sanding prep, wipe it down with a little lacquer thinner, naphtha or even mineral spirits. (allow plenty of time for the MS to evaporate before finishing if using other than OB poly). That should give you a good look to help determine if some coloration is necessary in those worn areas. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 3/1/2005 9:57 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Good job.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
People keep mentioning, and Im interested in knowing, what is a good occasional or regular cleaner for nice wood finishes?
Is there an appropriate product to get rid of dust or handling, but wont attract more, and damage the finish?
-zen
Which method of dusting and cleaning a nice wood finish without contributing to problems in the future depends upon which "nice finish" we're talking about.If it's a penetrating oil finish with a coat of paste wax, simple dusting with a dry cloth is appropriate and the occasional rewax and buffing (once a year or two maybe). The new wax will usually remove the old, but you could also first wipe the surfce down with some mineral spirits to remove the old wax and then rewax. For dark woods, use a dark wax or you'll end up with little whitish flecks embedded in the wood when the wax dries. If you have a piece that's been paste waxed and you apply some Pledge or similar silicone-bearing product, you'll end up with a smeary mess. Clean it off with mineral spirits and reapply the paste wax.If the piece in question has an oil-based conventional varnish, OB or water-borne poly or a conversion finish, you can clean the surface with a little dish detergent in a damp rag. Then buff with a clean cloth if you like. Mineral spirits is also safe to use for cleaning purposes if needs be. Then wipe it down with your detergent and rinse.The same holds true for nitro or shellac except that these finishes will only tolerate just so much exposure to water and abrasion from rubbing. Don't soak the surface, but keep it down to a damp cloth and be gentle. Mineral spitits is safe here also.There are other solvents that are safe to use for cleaning puroses with various finishes, but you need to know just which finish you're dealing with before reaching for the can. MS is safe for virtually all finishes.Paste-waxing film type finishes to increase the visual gloss of the surface is self-defeating in many ways. Paste wax will water spot and show hand prints far easier than most film type finishes. If you paste wax anything, other than a penetrating oil finish (like Watco), you're actually trading off a "look" and "feel" for more maintenance......as a rule. Personal call.Using silicone-bearing products isn't a big problem unless they are fissures or cracks in the finish. Then the sili makes it's way into the underlying wood and now problems result at ding-fix time or refinishing time. The problem is that there are usually miniscule cracks in the finish that go unnoticed because they are so small, but the silicone finds them and makes it's way thru. I avoid using the stuff because the potential for problems outweighs the visual benefits.... to me anyway. I've fought with the results of sili contamination enough to make that decision an easy one.On the other hand.......there's a lot of cheapo furniture out there these days that should rightfully be considered as disposable. Veneers so thin that any sanding at all during a refinish (after stripping off the conversion finish) and you're thru that veneer and into the the substrate. Pledge away and just figure on tossing the thing when it gets unsightly. That'll be far cheaper than the paying someone to attempt a refinish.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 3/1/2005 11:24 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Wealth of knowledge thanks alot. I have some low end Merrilatt cabs (oak with lite beige finish) solid oak rail and stile,veneer fronts, that 6 kids have put thru the paces. Plan on selling soon and was planning on doing the same thing (refinising) just before I put it on the market. Would you know what what Merrilatt uses for their finishes, and the best approach for getting them back to presentable shape.
Thanks again for your time
Sorry to the others for the hijack
Best guess would include three possibilities. Cat lacquer, conversion varnish or maybe nitro. Depends on the age as to whether nitro is even in the running, but it's easy to test for. (see earlier post) The older they are, the better the odds that they might be nitro.The nitro would be to your benefit as far as ease of recoating or refinishing goes. Easy to overcoat once the surface is clean and easy to strip if overcoating isn't going to make them look like you'd prefer.Not really sure what you mean by a light beige finish, unless you mean that they're pickled in that color range. If they're a solid color, then most likely that was done with a colored nitro lacquer type product and then the clear topcoats would most likely also be a lacquer. But.......they may have used a cat lacquer for the clear top coats. If so, you then face the same odds and dilemma regarding overcoating with additional clear coats.Wish I had better news for you, but this is SOP for most manufactured cabs today and most custom cabs as well. Conversion finishes of one type or another. Pretty durable finish while it lasts, but when that finish shows signs of wearing thru or gets a ding, the potential for trouble looms short of stripping and starting over.Maybe yours are nitro topcoats, but don't hold your breath unless they're at least 20 years old.If you do the test, make sure you do it in an inconspicous place (inside of door that's never opened or similar) cause if the topcoat is nitro and so is the coloring product.....you might eat right thru the color too with the lac thinner in the little test area. You might also face the silicone fish-eye problem even if these are nitro. There are ways and means of dealing with this, but it requires spraying and some Sil-Flo or Fish-Eye Eliminator mixed with the new finish. That application is best done by spraying that new concoction. Sometimes the contamination is bad enough that the Sil-Flo addition alone can't get the deed done. The procedures for overcoming the problem then would take another 15 minutes of typing so I won't go there for now.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 3/1/2005 11:54 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Thank you for your time. Cabs are what Iwould call a pseudo pickle job, but they came with the house. They are probably 10+- years old. When the time comes to get at it I will try the little tricks you described. Worse case, I'll have to strip them down. In the mean time I'll file the info. from this thread and dig it out of the archives when needed.
Thanking you again and god bless you and yours
and we have another bull with us...
cool....
Gunner stand back ...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've refinished a few older kitchens. Follow the advise of the poster that recommended taking off all the doors and give yourself room to move. Take a small piece of masking tape and number each door and cabinet it goes to. Kitchen cabinets are greasy so you need to clean everything very well. In the past I have used a mild solution of TSP and Lestoil or Mr. clean. Some orange cleaners work well but I have had bad problems with Orange clean on some older finishes. The commercials on TV are very misleading and you can turn some finishes white.
You will need to sand the doors. Using a non loading paper like Norton 3X 150 or 180 and a hand sanding block. You have to be careful on edges or molded parts. What you are trying to do with the sandpaper is lightly rough the surface. You want to act like you a sanding a fine piece of furniture and sand gently with the grain. Vacuum up all the dust and wipe the doors and drawers down. You should set up a work table to apply your finish on. You will need a place to put the doors, etc, while they dry. Laying them down in a dust free area is best. You can only do one side at a time but you will probably only need to do the face. Either use a wiping poly or a good brush like a Purdy. I would suggest using a satin finish. You have to apply light coats, don't over brush, just lay it on then strike it off with the brush tips. Don't use an action that will scrape the poly off the brush, for instance, don't start on an edge going toward the middle, go from the middle to the edge. After you have the face done, check the edges and underneath for drips and runs. Plan on two coats. Once the first coat is dry, lightly, very lightly sand with 220 just to take off any nibs or rough spots. Apply the second coat as before.
If you have been careful with the last coat you may be done. If you want to take it up a notch, you can buff the surface with 0000 steel wool, again gently with the grain. You can then apply a light coat of furniture paste wax like Minwax or Johnsons. Just put a small amount on an old T-shirt and apply, allow to dry to a haze and buff off with another clean T-shirt. Add some new handles and it should look like a new kitchen. The key to good finish work is to take your time, be methodical and be clean.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
http://www.kitchentuneup.com/
A goofy name, but the process is unique, and the products are proprietary. Some of the work I do is for a local franchise...maybe there's one close by you. Lots of positive comments from customers. Don't know how much prices vary, but around here average kitchen is around $800. Don't know what your time's worth, but respraying is a ton of work by comparison...especially if you're selling the place
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.