Can I get an opinion?
We have been having major renovations at work, building new rooms, ripping up floors, all sorts of stuff. Have to give the contractor credit for working around us, hasn’t been easy for him, or us. There have been some deviations from the specs, we’ve tried to saw off on things left undone, and things we’ve asked for extra. (i.e., conduit not run as spec’ed for phone, computer lines,, sinks not installed as spec’ed [?ever try to wash a plate in a bar sink that’s 11×13 O.D.??] cheaper faucets than those specified were installed. We’re accepting these ‘errors’, since the project is almost done. He’s installed a few things that we didn’t include in initial plans ( and has charged for them)
But the thing that has really got us upset is that we had ceramic tile installed in the waiting room, done over the weekend. When we got in Monday morning, there is grout on all of the tiles. We’ve been scrubbing with a brush, but can only remove little bits at a time. And now the GC has sealed the tile. It looks like sh*t. Looks as though people with salty, snowy boots have been walking over it, and that we haven’t bothered to clean it.
How the heck do you get dried grout off tile. Is it our responsibility? (Designer didn’t specify in contract that the GC was to clean and seal floor.) GC says it’s our job, we think that a floor should be completed before it’s “done”. He has now ‘sealed’ it as a favour to us. Can we ever get the grout off now??????
I’ve been reading this board for a couple of years, and have really been running guard for the contractors. I know it’s not easy to work while an office is still running, but the floor has really got everyone upset.
But….. if you install a ceramic floor as part of a job, (or have a sub do it) do you expect that it will be cleaned to perfection before you leave??
Replies
maybe not perfection, but clean. he has an obligation to complete in a workman like manner his projects and a floor covered with grout is not complete.
is it really covered with grout or is there some grout out of the lines here and there. in any event it is not your responsibility to finish his job.
James
Nothing's ever "cleaned to perfection". Who decided on perfection.
I lay tile. I wipe haze. I don't leave grout on tile...least I try not to and would clean it off as soon as I noticed it.
But.....even the wiping of haze isn't contracted to 'perfection".
If it were.....I'd still be going back every other week wiping tile jobs I laid years ago!
I wipe till I'm satisfied...the tell the customer...chances are.....it'll haze over a coupla more times.....each time...less haze. I also caulk...which I've come to understand most of my competition leaves for the GC to complete.
So......that said......I contract "lay and grout"....but won't specify wipe and stay there till it's wiped to perfection. It's a judgement on my part.....if I did less than expected...I wouldn't keep getting the calls for more work.
I'd guess the tile setter was sloppy....but the GC has the responsibility......whice I'd take care of if I was him.....but not knowing that situation...he maybe willing to just get out and get on with life...referal be damned. Maybe all the changes finally got to him and he's already pulled the plug....and since his contract don't say "perfection"...
He ain't even gonna try.
So...long story short...it all depends!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
How the heck do you get dried grout off tile.
First of all, what kind of tile is this? When you say the tile was "sealed", was it the tile itself or just the grout? The first thing I would do is contact the manufacturer of the tile to see if they recommend a specific cleaning product. There are acid cleaners that will remove grout haze but you run the risk of damaging the tile (and surrounding surfaces), plus it's very messy to work with. This should only be considered a last resort.
Is it our responsibility? (Designer didn't specify in contract that the GC was to clean and seal floor.) GC says it's our job, we think that a floor should be completed before it's "done".
No, I don't think it's your responsibility at all. Part of the professional duty of the tile setter is to properly clean the tile after grouting and remove any grout haze (which is not a terribly difficult proposition for any experienced tilesetter). Now, of course the degree of "perfection" is debatable, but ask yourself- how often do you walk into an office building and see grout haze on the tile in the foyer? At the very least the GC should take care of this.
Sorry, shouldn't've said "cleaned to perfection". I'm not asking for that, but I spent Monday and Tuesday on my knees, with a scrub brush, scrubbing out the little crevices on the tiles. When I wet it down, the grout shows up like little brown spots, so I scrub and scrub until that one goes away, then move on to the next one. Seems to me it would've been a whole lot easier to get it off when the grout was fresh, so I'm wondering when it should have been done. And now that it's been 'sealed' (some clear stuff in an orange bottle that the GC got from Home Depot) will I ever get it clean.
And then the phone guy is spending three days running lines, instead of one, because no conduit was run as spec'd. He's having to fish every bloody line, and some of the spaces are rather tight.
As for change orders, I really tried to keep them to a minimum. Life would have been easier if the GC and I could have met before renos started, and we had reviewed the plans from the designer. Things the designer said "sure, we can do that" didn't sound so easy when the GC talked to us about it, and we did change things in the GC's favour, as well as ours. Unfortunately, I'm not paying the bills, so didn't have that option.
I just completed an office renovation in one of our power plants. We had 3200 sq. ft. of ceramic tile installed. Tile was a 12x12 dark gray porcelin type with charcol grout. The job was done by one of the larger tile companies in the area. They cleaned the gout off of the tiles quite thorougly. They also told us that they would not seal the grout immediately. It is a cement product and should cure before being sealed. This was the same statement made by three other tile companies that bid the job.
If you used a highly figure tile that is supposed to imitate a stone surface, you may be expecting more than is reasonable. Anyone that has ever installed a slate floor can attest to the difficulty of cleaning grout off of slate. Light colored high grain tiles and dark grout are a real pain to clean correctly.
You are not paying the bill, but it sounds as if someone is expecting you to "sign off" on work completed and quality of work. If that is the case, and you are not satisfied, don't do it!
The project I mentioned above was a $175K job that went to close to $300K before completion. I was the project coordinator, which basicly meant it was my approval and the office managers approval before the GC or any of our subs got paid.
Isn't it fun being the middle man (person) in one of these office renovations...(-:
Dave
If you used a highly figure tile that is supposed to imitate a stone surface, you may be expecting more than is reasonable. Anyone that has ever installed a slate floor can attest to the difficulty of cleaning grout off of slate. Light colored high grain tiles and dark grout are a real pain to clean correctly.
That is why competent tilesetters use grout bags for slate and similar types of tile. I still don't think that leaving visible grout haze on a tile job -- no matter the type of tile -- is the mark of a professional installation.
The GC's point to us was that he had installed the floor, now it was up to us to clean it and seal it. Interesting point about waiting for the grout to cure, is that going to cause a problem? Sounds as though I'm not being entirely unreasonable to expect it cleaned up more than it was. I also think it would have been easier to get the grout off while it was fresh, rather than now. I'm really not itching for a fight with the guys, they've been good about a lot of things; I just wondered what the norm (no capital N) is
The norm is to complete work in a professional like manner . If you are not happy it doesnt go with any judge in the country. Work must be performed within reasonable expectations of quality. It doesnt matter if he is unhappy about something else , his butt is on the line over the tile job . Hes pulling your leg about what he told you. Sounds like a sell job to me on the GCs part. 95 percent would simply come in and redo it to satisfaction. Period. So, Im wondering what this guys beef is all about .
I would have cleaned it even if I didnt think it was my job, just to make a customer happy . Small price to pay. I guess you could hang a sign on the wall saying that this contractor did this floor. Im quite sure he would have a problem with the sign , and that would prove him at fault !
Lets be sure though that you are not talking haze . We are talking undesputed grout left on the face of the tile?
Tim Mooney
I've only done a few small tile jobs, but IMO any grout on the surface of the tile that can be easily seen means the job wasn't finished.
MAYBE if there is a haze that can only be seen in certain lighting conditions....
What is described just sounds like slop to me.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
I agree. Ive done tile a few times but Ive always considered that part of the installation was cleanliness. You dont take your car to a repair shop and have the mechanic leave grease and finger prints all over it. You dont go to the Dr. for surgery and he leaves ya all bloody and tell ya to clean your self up....Its called in a nutshell professionalism and craftsmanship.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
What does these terms have in common?
complete work in a professional like manner.
built to local building standards.
Why do contractors put them in contracts ?
They are vague. They do not have a league meaning. Will have to be defined by experts in each field.
The reason is so that the customer needs to hire 10 or so professional tile professionals to go into court to testified that the work was not professional done.
WHY did the costumer not make sure the contract spelled out standards for doing the job before signing the contract and hiring this sub contractor or the GC for that matter.
Part of the problem with large companies that don't do a lot of remodeling or renovations is that they don't have anyone among thier staff that is "construction wise." A medical facility, accounting firm, retail store, or an endless list of others must depend on a GC to do the job in a proffessional and workman like manner. Manny of them assign an oversight rezssponcibility to an employee that has a high interest in the type of work or "built thier own home." In some cases they hire the "designer" as the project manager or inspector. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
The company I work fore has an extensive building history. They employeed thier own construction crew of almost 2,000 men for many years. They only started haveing difficulty getting quality work after they got rid of most of the people. Many of the rements of the construction people that remain have "project manager or coordinator " titles now. They found thathe cst ratio for paying thier own people to "watch the contractors" was low compared to the cost litigation or the time it took to rework projects that just had GC oversight.
Dave
I'll try to address some of the questions.
Yes, it's grout, not haze. When I wet the tiles, there are spots in the crevices that are brown. If i take a scrub brush and rub and rub, it comes off. Then I move to the next crevice in the tile to get the next bit off. When the floor dries, the crevices look as though we haven't washed last year's accummulated snow and salt from the floor. This is a whole waiting room (20 x12) that needs to be scrubbed.
Why wasn't it specified in the contract? Well, that we're going to have to take up with the designer. My boss ( a doctor) hired a designer to re-configure our suite to give us more exam rooms (x-ray, ultrasound). She did all the drawings, sent them to us. Two of us in the dept with a bit of common sense, and a small idea of what to do, went over the plans, suggested changes. But the designer put out the tender, chose the GC, and had final say on what was to be done.
Unfortunately, I figured when the plans say you're going to put down ceramic floor, it will be ready to go. They hung the drywall and taped the joints. They didn't just go buy the paint, and hand us paint brushes to 'finish' the walls. They hung the doors. They put the plates on the electrical. Ergo, I thought the floor would be finished too.
Any changes have been discussed, and charged. I really wish that I could have sat with the contractor, and discussed every page of drawings before we started. It would have saved a lot of trouble.
Has the designer approved the tile job or even looked at it? Has the designer been paid?
No. & No.
Inspection should happen this week. Payment is up to my boss, don't know details on that yet. He keeps financial stuff close to the chest.
I would make it a point to voices your concerns to the boss. Like most busy people he probably doesn't look at the floor or ceiling very much. You might point out to him that people setting in a waiting room will notice the grout, and since it is a medical facility, will wonder is the rest of the place is also "dirty."
My project was just the opposite of yours. We renovated two office areas in a electric power plant. Coal dust, fly ash, and slurry are the insideouse beast there. Everything eventually turns a shade of black and gray, so using gray tile and charcoal gray grout was way to hide the dirt. I don't think that is an option in your case.
Dave
Hi Dave: Went into work today, the floor looks 'o.k.' The contractor was in over the w/e, and scrubbed most of the grout off. We looked it over, and he's going to come back next w/e and get the rest of it cleaned. The tiles looks so classy, it was a shame that it was so dirty. Thanks to everyone for their input.
Edited 1/7/2003 10:14:40 PM ET by martagon99