Real simple question.
What is your recommendations for cleaning off the rust? And, what do you recommend doing to them when before putting them in the tool drawer to keep them cleaned up?
Background: I just got a box of old tools.
5 large Disston files, some old taper shank reamers, punches, large taps. All have a uniform rust coat on them, but except for one chipped tap will be ok if cleaned up. All are good quality older tools that are worth cleaning up & will fill in my shortage of files nicely.
I took a file brush to one file last night and cleaned it up some, still pretty sharp and usable. Also ground the mushroomed head off a large punch. But, still need to get all the rust off and keep it off.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Replies
in my experience, there was not much to be gained by actually removing the rust (unless they are more for show than use?).
What has worked well for me is a coat of linseed oil.
It protects it from further rust, and kind of "consolidates" the existing rust into a more uniform "surface", if that description makes any sense. I wipe on a liberal coat of the oil, then wipe it down real well with a cloth (rubs off much of the surface rust and rubs the oil into the tiny nooks in the surface). After this treatment they have more resistance to rust and kind of look polished (due to the shiny, oil coat, I guess). If any of the tools have a wooden handle the linseed oil really brings out the grain nicely too!
Norm
I have a gallon of linseed oil on the shelf. I'll try that with some of my other tools that are starting to rust. And these once they're cleaned up. Necissary or not, I hate the sight of rusty tools. Kind of like a sink full of dirty dishes with some people, just makes me feel like things are out of sorts and neglected.
Thanks
Billy
Billy,
I started in the Merchant Marine as a tugboat deckhand, and believe me, I learned about rust on that job.
Rust is iron oxide, if we're talking about steel or iron tools. To create rust, you need two things: some kind of ferrous metal, and oxygen. If you can prevent the oxygen from interacting with the ferrous metal, voilà ! no rust. This is why mechanics' tools rarely rust; they're generally coated with grease and oil from the vehicle's engine. Carpenters' tools, on the other hand, do get exposed to water (a great source of oxygen) from time to time, and are generally kept grease-free so as not to stain the wood.
Getting the stuff off the metal depends on how thick the rust is, and how well it's bonded to the underlying material. Your technique of using a wire brush is good for thin layers of powdery rust that aren't too well bonded. A bench grinder or angle grinder with a wire cup brush can save you a lot of elbow grease.
If you've got relatively thick flakes of rust, you should try to chip it off with a welder's slag hammer. You remember how big Popeye's forearms were? Well, that's because all young sailors have to do their time on deck with chipping hammers, which are 12-ounce, double-ended, cross-peen hammers. A good deckhand will take one in each hand and chip the deck like a drummer for hours. If you just hit flaked rust with a wire brush, what you get is polished rust--and painting that is a waste of paint.
If the rust is seriously bonded to the tool, you won't be able to get it off without actually grinding or chipping down into the metal itself, which might make the tool unusable afterwards. In a case like that, what you need to do is find some phosphoric acid; there are several brands that I know of. The one we used to use down in the 'states was called 'OSPHO'. This acid reacts with the iron oxide and changes it into an inert metallic salt which bonds permanently to the underlying metal. You can then prime and paint it--if the item will be painted--or just leave it alone. It will have a dark blue-black mottled colour.
PS--wear some glasses while chipping rust. And don't get the acid on your favourite Carhartts.
--Dinosaur
Very knowledgable. Thanks.
Mostly, it's powdery rust, a few flakes in some places. Hard to tell on the file teeth exactly what it is. Though I haven't examined everything real closely yet.
I may need the phosphoric acid treatment, though probably not for these tools. My FIL helped me repaint my truck recently, some of the rust spots are coming back (obviously didn't get it all) so may need to sand down and fix those few spots. He uses something for this, not sure the brand name, but it's probably the phosphoric acid.
Billy
Most likely it's called POR-15. Either way it's known in the business as "rust convertor".
It is possible to prime/paint on rust(not flaky stuff tho), just be sure to use an etching primer on bare metal/rust.
Mike
PS, if your looking to shine rusty chrome, nothing polishes it like steel wool. 00("double-ought") is the way to go.
One other thing to try.
Water wet aluminium foil for chrome and even crudded up aluminium as in shower doors.
Rust passivator or rust converter -- I still have a little from a company called Chesterton. It converts the red oxide to blue oxide, which is stable. This is different from the phosphoric acid or electrolyitic methods that try to get rid of all the rust. Chip, scrape, wire brush, sand, whatever it takes to get a solid red oxide surface, then convert it and paint. On non-paintable surfaces like the table saw, I use steel wool followed by paste wax.
-- J.S.
Huh. Never heard of a "passivator"-I'm gonna have to go look it up now! Sounds like the same idea, though.
Mike
"Passivator"
A long time ago, we used something called "Tannik" and it came from a foreign country like Denmark. Rather a beige, milky liquid, you paint it on a rusty surface and after a few minutes - Viola! - it turns the rust blue/black. Then you prime it. The way I understand it, the primer does the protecting - keeps the moisture out - and the outer coat of enamel makes it pretty.
Now I have here an 8 oz. bottle of the same stuff from Rust-Oleum which was invented by a fisherman who noticed that steel doesn't rust when coated with fish oil. Anyway, they call it "Rust Reformer". 8 oz. cost about $6 but a little goes a long ways.
~Peter
Where am I going? And what am I doing in a handbasket?View Image
I was just amused with the term "passivator". Maybe it's the Buddhist version of the same stuff?
Mike
I can personally reccomend Ospho brand. I bought an old beach-runner PU truck that had serious cancer at the A posts. Used my fingers to pick off the loose pieces and large chunks of rust... Ospho'ed the remainder and left it alone. It turned that razor thin rust to a hard, stiff, black metalic material. Fast forward 7 years, and still with no maintenance, the black metalic stuff was still strong and had zero additional rust.
SamT
Well, that stinky solvent stuff worked pretty well. Stinky, but worked well. Still looking for one of the chemical rust convertors. Haven't found it in any of the local stores yet. Still need to get over to Ace hardware and order some doors, so hopefully they have some.
So, I've cleaned some of them up, but still some surface rust I'd like to treat.
Thanks to all for the advice.
Billy
Take a large enough container and fill it water, add one or two table spoons of lye. Mix well. Suspend the tool(s) in the water. Using a one or two amp battery charger put the negative lead in the water / solution and the positive lead to the tool(s). I hooked the negative lead to a piece of scrap metal to keep it in the water.
I used a wood dowel laid across the container to hang / suspend the tools in the lye solution and wired the tools together with soild coper wire. Tried tie wire but it just disolved before all of the rust was gone. Worked on every thing I cleaned up except plated metals. The method tried to remove the plating.
The process starts out slow then takes right off. Some baby sitting and ventilation required. Remember lye is caustic.
IMERC, your suggestion is pretty wild. Seems like I've heard of something like this before, but can't remember the name 'galvanic . . . something ... something.
A little DC voltage and some lye cleans things up chemically huh?
It's an intriguing idea, and I have some pure lye drain cleaner, that I'm afraid to pour down my drains anyway, and a battery charger, so I think I'll just have to try this with a few tools. None of these are plated, so that's not a concern.
Oh, I'm familiar with lye, though I'd prefer not to be.
Thanks
Billy
Billy... If you are useing drain cleaner cut back on the solution strenght. Maybe one spoonfull. I use washing / cleaning lye which is pretty weak compared to drain lye. If nothing happens for a while the solution is too week. Then again most of have some of the experimenter's blood in our viens. The rust removal process seems to take the punch out of the lye. Drain lye will eat a plastic bucket if it is too strong. No wonder you don't want it down your drains.
Clean off the flakey rust first and do yourself a favor. File card the files.
I have a 2 amp trickle / battery maintainer charger. Too much power and the process dosen't work so well. In this case less is more. Hope your first name isn't "Tim"
For light filmy rust try metal prep from your auto body supply house. Works on table saws tops, car bodies, and all of the the like, like nobody's buisness. If you use metal prep you have to see the process all the way through to completion. Clean, prime, paint, wax, oil or what ever you elect to do. Heavy rust on a large flat surface comes off well with a dressing stone and a little water. Don't forget the elbow grease.
Weather here still sucks. Snow, rain or cold. Your choice. This week is all outside work and at this rate next week will be too. Can't do my roof repairs, sky lights and the like in this mess. Getting bored.
Funny, our weather's been great for outside work the last couple weeks. Well, with the exception of a couple days. Idaho & Colorado are usually similar.
Are you just repairing the roof and adding skylights, or are you reshingling, and the skylights were added in as a 'while I'm at it' thing?
A lot of years ago I lived for a time in Ashton. You close? The Tetons and Jackson Hole were favorite stomping grounds. Now I'm west of Co. Springs.
Two sky lights were put in buy a hack. Same nieghbor hood, different houses. New curbs, DW, flashing, insulation and yadda, yadda, yadda. During the drought they were fine. Now with the wet weather.......
The roof is on a miid 1700's hotel that I'm going to renovate. The roof leaks bad enough to almost say it has a few natural sky lights. It's about 2.5" (inch not feet) in 12 pitch. Fix the roof, pump the basement and restore the heat water and electric. Dry the place out and go from there. Would be nice if boilers and GP wiring worked under water. The water in the basement is almost knee deep.
Sounds like you've got way more projects then I'd care for.
Ashton's only about 25 miles. Been in this area for quite awhile. Generally if I want to get out in the woods, I head for Island Park area. Jackson is nice 1 day every few years, but the tourist scene just isn't for me. I like to get away from most everyone. Seldom camp out in a campground, as I like solitude when I camp.
You must mean mid 1800's, not any buildings out here from the 1700's. Can't even imagine all the issues with a building that old. How many floors, about how many sq. ft. ect..? Have you posted any picts of this anywhere? Sounds interesting.
Curious why you want to relocate your swimming pool though. Basement always seemed like a good place for one to me.<G>
I didn't mention two on the books in the periminary stage. One is rapidly becoming a three ring circus.
I talking Ashton 38 years ago. The places are over run huh?
I head for the Lost Wilderness down here.
Some of earliest structures are 1710. Settlers were moving in here when this area still belonged to the French.
Basement. Two story. 5800 ft including the basement.
Basement is only 6' at best. Very short person pool only.
Major thunder storm w/ hail and big time wind is right now breaking loose. Listen to the lighting sizel the air.
No pic's.
You're writing a couple books? What subject?
As far as Ashton, it's probably changed as little as most anyplace in the past 38 years. A new hotel, Burger King, but mostly it's about the same size. Pretty slow economy in that area. Have some friends who just got married and live there. Her mom says they rent a decent two bedroom place for about $350/mo. Which includes everything buy electrical, even includes cable tv. I find it hard to believe it's that cheap to live there, but she says it is.
Forgot all about the French settlements. Hope they built real well. Well, guess they must have, or it wouldn't still be there for you to buy.
Any luck getting a handle on your kiddie pool downstairs? Doesn't sound like any fun.
Later
Billy
Books as in bookkeeping as in work.
Got the two sky lights over the week end. Latex caulk and no flashing. Wonder why they leaked.
Burger King in Ashton... Wonder if the Frost Top is still there?
That storm that was moving in the other day became localized flash flooding and mud slides. The kiddie pool is now hip deep as of yesterday afternoon. 80% of the roof is fixed. Sould pump some time this week. No, make that, Let the fun begin.
The Frost Top was still there a few months ago. Good place to stop for a burger. There's a new burger joint too in that old cafe as you drive into the south end of town coming from St. Anthony way. Big Juds, specializes in 1 lb hamburgers. Excellent food, bring an appetite.
Writing a book sounded much more interesting then doing book keeping. Maybe you should keep a journal. By the time you get this hotel up to snuff you may have the basis for a good book.<G> Or, a movie, you could call it The Money Pit.<G>
Sounds like you need to find a farmer to borrow a good ditch pump from. Little loud, but it'd empty out your basement pretty good.
I hope when you say the roof is 80% fixed, that doesn't mean 20% of it still leaks.<G>
http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm
Complete set of how to's for electric method. My BIL swears it works, I haven't tried it.
Joe H
Thanks, good clear description of how to do it. I barely remember doing something similar in a chemistry or physics class once. Guess I wasn't too interested, as I barely remember it. More likely, I was spending all my effort trying to figure out the math formulas. I missed all the interesting things in those classes because all my attention was spent on math.
I tried out some solvent a friend gave me. Stinky stuff. Gonna see if WD40 will remove the stink. Did clear off any loose rust, and loosened the rest of it, but I'm not sure I want to use that stuff again.
Be interesting to use the electrolysis and compare results.
For what to put on them, I swear by a little blue can called Nevr-Dull. Had to go look see who makes it. The George Basch Co in Freeport, NY. I get it at an Ace store, but I put it on everything steel - tablesaw, chop saw, chisels, you name it. It will polish off small surface rust but is more suited towards preventative maintenance, and it does give a smooth surface (good on the saws and chisels).
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
I'll see if the Ace store down the street has any of that. I need something for my table saw table also.
No problems with residues on wood you cut?
Or, do you put a coat of wax or something else on top of the tablesaw also?
I don't top coat it with anything. 'Cept the jointer. That I wax but primarily to keep from breaking a sweat while facing stock."The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
WD 40 works for me,
I keep a lot of mechanics tools at my parents house which was in St Louis, and now in Houston, lots of humidity in the garage, anyway,
I spray a litlte over them in the drawers after I use them, they can sit anywhere from from 1 month to 1 year and never had rust on them, just have to wipe them down a bit before you use them next time.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.
if you head over to Knots there is many a topic about cleaning up old planes and tools.
Mike aka Planewood uses the electrolosis in his plane restoration business, however i think he uses washing soda and not lye. Both caustics but one is more mild then the other. It pulls rust and even the Japaning off so it indiscriminately cleans. However if you prefer the patina that some old tools have it removes that as well, but thats more or less personal taste. Ive always thought to clean hand saws the best way to do that is to just use them.
You could use those rubber blocks impregnated with abrasives.
if you have a sand blaster and are able to use fine abrasives at a low PSI that might work as well. Just go slow and low.
Several choices to prevent rust, camelia oil, linseed oil and use Johnson Paste wax and buff off.
Edited 5/24/2003 10:16:03 AM ET by WmP
Billy, I answered that very same question some time ago (I think in Ask this old house forum.)
I've restored hundreds of tools over the years as I still do with this method.
First clean away oil or grease with kero or paint thinner.
Then using a 6" wire wheel, (Steel) brush away the bulk of the reachable rust.
I do this with a portable drill using an arbor to fit the wire brush.
The better wire brushes have twisted clumps of wire.
Wear goggles, as the whiskers do fly off occasionaly. You'll find that a medium 'touch' is better than a heavy pressure (Safer too)
After a while the brush will get dull. No Sweat!
Just spin the brush in reverse, then use an old piece of grinding wheel and wire brush the stone with a medium pressure for a minute or so.
Now in forward direction it's sharper than new.
For those of you without a reversable tool, sharpen in forward direction then reverse the wheel on the arbor.
If you run into scale ,(Blisters of rust)scrape them off level with a single edged razor blade.
Next invest in a ScotchBrite Wheel 6"x 3/4" to really polish the metal.
Pull the object towards you against the rotation of the wheel for best results and try to 'buff' in the length wise direction as opposed to cross wise.
For hard to reach spots, there are smaller round or cup shaped wheels also brass wire brushes (I use them on chrome and 'crud'on the japaned finishes)
To keep those beautiful polished tools bright and rust free, wipe them occasionally with an oilly cloth then lightly dry and put away in adrawer with a wood or felt bottom. I also keep packets of Silica gel in the drawers to absorb any moisture . Silica gel packets usually come with a lot of new electronic gear, You've been throwing those away.
(Usually they have a notice warning you to DO NOT EAT)
Also, for those of you 'Seasoned' citizens, they come in those amber pill bottles you've been saving for a rainy day. (They're little cardboard cylinders of charcoal) Stein.
Thanks for the suggestions. I've cleaned up some of them with the wire brush idea, though it doesn't work on the files, but don't have any scotchbrite pads. Need to pick some up and try that idea.
If you use those silica gel packs, it's a good idea to set them outside on a cookie sheet in the hot sun once or twice a year to dry them back out. A few hours does wonders, or 3-4 hours at 250 in the oven.
Used to be able to get big packs (4"x4") of those, came in the artillery powder cans, but not being in the army anymore, only have a couple left.