Headed up to the coast range today for some canoe time at a reservoir about 20 miles from my place. Last time I was up there most of this was standing Doug Fir, Some of the cuts are 2 yrs. old, some just this year.
Thought I would post a few shots for those who have never seen tree farming in action.
Replies
I like it better with the trees.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
It obviously looks bad right now.
But if they removed a bad stand of trees and will cultivate a healthy stand, it would be a good thing long term.
Tree "farming" is a long term thing. The sucess of any one operation can't be judged by how it looks at any given point in time. You have to look at the whole program.
BossHog, I didn't mean the post to come across as being a view of a "bad thing".
I just thought that those who may never have seen what the area a harvested stand of trees , and the terrain DF grows best on look like. Without that part of the operation there would be much less timber available , it is just a part of the cycle. The stand of trees was not a bad stand of trees at all. In comparing logging to farming it doesn't look much worse than a freshly harvested field. The scale of it all and the terrain does make it look a bit harsh though.The "Clear Cut" method is the preferred method of the logging and timber companies once a stand has reached harvest able maturity. Prior to that they will do selective thinning. One thing that does occur that is disturbing is that along the edges of the clear cuts the neighboring stands of trees, having lost the protection of the removed trees , will often be windblown down in huge swathes. Each successive storm will remove more trees, these trees will just lay there afterward, salvage of those generally does not occur so they lie there like giant piles of "pick up sticks" that some one abandoned in the middle of a game. Used to be that fire woodcutters could have at those trees but liability and too many thefts have put a stop to that .Later in the year (after the rains start) they will have "Slash Burns" at which time they burn they biggest piles of debris, then depending on who owns the property they will either use helicopters, or hand plant new seedings. Some companies just let the land re seed naturally but in farming terms that is like awaiting a neighboring field to reseed yours. One can drive these areas and see miles and miles of stands of trees that were planted at different intervals , each stand at a different point of maturity. Not unlike seeing wheat fields or corn fields that were planted several weeks apart. I mentioned in the "Whats wood is this" thread that this area was a part of the original "Tillamook Burn " a huge fire (240,000 acres) in 1933. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tillamook_Burn The area was salvaged harvested after that , then replanted in the 50's, what you see is the results of some of that replanting being harvested. "Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 6/4/2007 12:25 pm by dovetail97128
The only real question about tree farming, in my mind, is about soil conservation. I've driven through those forests, on narrow, steep roads which give a real good impression about the lay of the land. Considering the high rainfall, erosion is a serious concern. Even though the growth cycles are quite long, the amount of soil lost from clear cutting is a great deal more than can be built back up during each cycle.
One development which is encouraging...much of the timber logged in steep terrain is now lifted out by giant helicopters and landed nearby where the logs can be loaded on trucks and carried out on relatively flat roads. This is far better for soil conservation than the usual method of skidding logs out of the cut areas. It's also more economical for the logging companies.
I don't think erosion in a clear cut is a huge concern. Grass and weeds will take over and provide ground cover until the trees are established and block out the sunlight.The only place I don't think that would apply would be steep slopes where you might get heavy rains and get mudslides. But I dno't think that's a concern in most situations.
Could someone ever get addicted to counseling? If so, how could you treat them?
The only place I don't think that would apply would be steep slopes where you might get heavy rains and get mudslides. But I dno't think that's a concern in most situations
Well the coastal mountains of WA and OR are mostly pretty steep. That's where doug fir grows well because of the great rainfall. And that's the cause for my concern, on behalf of future generations. I'd love to see doug fir continue to thrive. As long as it has good soil conditions, it should.
To reduce movement of soil into streams, buffer areas (aprox. 100' wide) are left uncut adjacent to streams. This both keeps the soil in the forest and out of the streams (silt from clearcutting in the past, has wrecked many salmon fisheries by smothering eggs).On helicopter logging, it is actually rather rare as it is very expensive and mostly used for logging individual, high value trees.
Have you seen the aftermath of a wildfire fueled by dead and diseased trees? Forests need to be thinned. If we don't do it, Mother Nature will, and her approach is a lot less surgical.
TJK, Yes I have. I did not post the pics with an intent to attack clear cutting at all. It is just farming on a much larger scale is all I see it as. Many of the posters and readers at BT will never travel to this part of the world and get a chance to see where the timbers and lumber they use come from so I posted it just for that reason. There are valid concerns concerning erosion and slides, I have seen those first hand, but that is no different IMO than the concerns that any good farmer would have about their own farm land. Many years ago my own daughter asked why didn't they stop clear cutting , I replied that if they did so I would probably not be able to find work as a carpenter. There would be no material to work with . I explained to her the necessity of the materials being harvested , milled, and available so I could work and that my work paid for her food, clothes home etc. I still feel that way .
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Maybe if you called it Timber Harvesting in lieu of Clear Cutting people would accept it better. Sme thing but different name. :)
They don't have regulations here in GA for reseeding/replanting but I thought all the states in the NW had requirements for the restoration of the trees, public, private or otherwise.
john7g, Good Point! The term I used is the common term here. And Yes they do have requirements for replanting . I am not familiar with just what all that entails though. I do know that private landowners (Small private owners) who claim timber tax deferral have to replant within a given period of time of face fines and back taxes.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I've been living here in Western Washington for 30 years now and I have never, even once, seen ANYONE react in a positive way when passing a fresh clearcut. They're nasty looking. Gut wrenching. You don't have to be a biologist to know a scene of extreme violence when you see one.
It's true that the various stages of regeneration can be pleasant to look at, interesting, reassuring. But clearcuts? They are nasty. The only thing I've seen even close is the aftermath of a serious flood, or hurricane.
Almost as volitile a topic for discussion as abortion or racial equality here in timber country. Heck said it first. I just agreed with him.
The stubble in a corn field doesn't look too great after harvesting the silage either, Jim.
Nor does the pile of hides from the sheep after they harvest the meat.
And cotton fields after the picking can look much like desert tumbleweeds.
Then there is the strip mines where they get the coal that produces half of our electricity until they refield and seed it again.Other than an apple tree or a fish pond, I can't think of too many things that mankind can harvest from without making it look different for a little while.It is all part of the process. My bones are gonna look pretty well "harvested" someday
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Are you saying it's all about what humans want? What is easiest for us? Most convienient?Heck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Have 32 acres of forest land near St. Helens.
Mil. Land Co. clearcut 4200 acres next to me about 22 years ago. 50 ft plus tree now.
Actually was neat to be able to see the land contours.
Did not like losing the beaver pond though.
No trees on my place down in subsequent windstorms, but the slash burn did get out of hand onto about 2 acres. They burned the entire 4200 acres at once, probably 50 fire trucks, a D4 or larger dozer every few hundred feet around the perimeter. Went down and stayed in the cabin that night, quite a site to see that big of controlled burn at night.
Not all, but primary. We are the dominant species here.
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Other than an apple tree or a fish pond
Fish ponds get drained to become mudbug fields to then become rice fields--berm around green water except between harvests.
Things are cyclical. There are those that find bare dedicious branches "ugly," yet celebrate, after the foilage dies, the rainbow of color that then results.
Timber company "clear cut" has nothing on a developer using a rome plow. That plow scours out the stumps and highpoints rather indiscriminately. Timber compant then replaces the empty lot with more trees--developer sticks up a bunch of McHouses clad in vinyl--one of those may be "worse," but it depends on how you look at it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You're right, the developer's logging is worse.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
the developer's logging is worse.
To add insult to injury, after denuding the landscape, it's renamed for what it is not longer, "woods," "forrest," "shady" and so on . . .
At least the timber folk are leaving the stumps until replanting; there's something holding the landscape together for a bit.
Mind you, down here, we get to see the developers stick "flat" plans on hilly terrain, even when that means making 4' and more slab-on-grade turndown edges. Looks lovely with the scrawny big-box landscaping that winds up in front of it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
To add insult to injury, after denuding the landscape, it's renamed for what it is not longer, "woods," "forrest," "shady" and so on . .
There was a low life developer working in the Poconos back in the seventies. He bought up large parcels of land and, with little regard for natural beauty, cut roads and crammed little lots into every available corner.
This guy had a knack for coming up with very woodsy names for his places. I remember seeing the big signs on the way to work every day. One such development he called Pocono Mountain Lake Forest.
Monday morning we drove past that sign and noticed that some of it's letters had been carefully painted out while one of the others had been modified. It read "no Mountain, Fake Forest".
While a clearcut or burned area, or pile of blown-down trees may be gut-wrenching to you as someone with human aesthetics, there's a large population of critters, bugs, plants & trees which probably view each of these newly created environments as a paradise.
Not every animal or plant is looking for a nice neat forest. In fact, many species absolutely require some form of recently cleared area for survival, a process which has gone on for millennia - through fire, wind, erosion, etc. Not "pretty", but perfectly natural and necessary.
That isn't to say that effort shouldn't be made to avoid erosion issues, for example, which certainly can cause problems.
Don
Clear cutting is just one kind of timber harvesting. It can be the preferred method for some forest stands. Timber harvest prescriptions should be based on the ecology of each forest. Clear cutting can provide a reasonable surrogate for natural processes in the forest. Clear cutting is like a large natural disturbance (often duplicating the effects of a large fire). Clear cutting is most suited to "Even-aged" stands of mature trees. Often these stands naturally regenerated within a few years of the last big fire. Lodgepole pine is a good example of a tree species that is ideal for clear cutting. Some trees need full sun so clear cuts are perfect.Another method used is "group tree selection," this involves harvesting smaller pockets of trees. This mimicks the way insects, disease, or wind usually take out clumps of trees. It is like a series of very small clear cuts (also known as "patch cutting"). This method can also be used to create pockets that increase the snow captured increasing the water yield in the forest. The small openings created in this method can be seeded in naturally by adjacent trees, eliminating the need to plant trees.The third timber harvest method is single tree selection. This is a good method for shade loving trees (spruce and fir for example). These are usually uneven-aged stands and the harvest of individual mature trees scattered throughout a stand preserves the stand age structure. The group and single tree selection harvests are used by foresters too, but they don't get much attention.
TJK
I drive through a mess of wildfire ravaged trees most weeks. I will stop and get a picture if possible this week. It's been three years this summer for the fire I'm thinking about. Turns my stomach every time I drive through.
Dovetail
Is that up by Carlton? West? If it is a long time ago that property was off limits for logging. Trying to preserve the resoivoir. Drinking h20 for Minnville.
Really? I can see thousands of burned acres from my backyard and it doesn't really bother me since it is a natural event (that has been exacerbated by our fire suppression).
Scrapr, It is up Pike/Turner Creek Road out of Yamhill. N.N.E. of Carlton. Harney Reservoir area . Harney is on the North fork of the Trask river. The areas I took most of the photos in is actually part of a large commercial timber farm. Stimpson I believe now, at one time I think it was Willamette who owned it. If you lived here when Hagg Lake reservoir was built then Harney is almost due west of Hagg Lake maybe 8 miles. Mcguire is further west yet.Harney is the reservoir for Forest Grove/Hillsboro . The land around it is controlled by a PUD from that area. The pic with the fresh log deck was taken about 100' from the waters edge at the reservoir.The others were taken on the Yamhill side near the top of the Yamhill/Trask rivers watershed divide on the way up to Harney. The pic with the valley in the distance is looking south towards Yamhill/Carlton area. McGuire Reservoir is Mac's water supply and yes that area has some logging restriction on it imposed by the PUD that operates the reservoir.
They actually do have timber sales in the McGuire area but they are closely monitored, and the money earned from the sale belongs to the PUD and is used to defray costs of operation of the water system etc.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
McGuire is the one I was looking for. Pretty area up there. Used to take our bikes up there and ride downhill to Mac. Not sure it would be safe to do that now. West Side Rd is pretty busy and no shoulder.
Have not been much west of Yamhill. My step g ma was buried up there. I'm glad we followed the family up there because I was lost. She was sister to "Sport" Laughlin.
I used to deliver up by Vernonia. Boy that was pretty up there. Even with the CC. I stopped a few mornings and just looked at the valleys and hills.
I was in Yellowstone about three years after their devastating wildfires that were so bad because the tree cutting had been halted. It was far uglier than three years after any clear cut harvest I have ever seen.
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That's ridiculous. Yellowstone didn't burn because logging was halted, it burned because large scale wildfires are a natural part of a forest lifecycle here in the northern Rockies. And you should check out those burns now - absolutely full of wildflowers and big game.Equating wildfire with logging is a sorry tactic.
No it isn't. Like you said, the fire will come naturally sooner or later.
But responsible stewardship will harvest the trees for good use first with far less danger and destruction. Leaving them to naturally make a mess and eventually burn is simply irresponsible and poor stewardship.
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"Leaving them to naturally make a mess and eventually burn is simply irresponsible and poor stewardship."Piffin, I have a great respect for your knowledge as a builder.However, you clearly know nothing at all about how western forests work. Fire is a necessity for large healthy treees in Ponderosa stands and also the way that lodgepole forests have been 'designed' to work. Fires create big game habitat, awesome morel harvests, and wildflower displays beyond comprehension. Clearcuts create none of these, nor do they create firebreaks that will stop forest fires.I am not against logging. I am a timberframer by trade and I live in MT. Clearcutting is the only viable way to harvest trees in much of WA and OR (not MT and most of ID, though).Fire is a natural and necessary part of forests, and suppression efforts that started in 1910 and continued until very recently have been extremely disruptive of natural cycles.
--"But responsible stewardship will harvest the trees for good use first with far less danger and destruction. Leaving them to naturally make a mess and eventually burn is simply irresponsible and poor stewardship."It is not irresponsible to set aside National Park and wilderness lands. Their purpose is not timber production. These are places where nature can be nature, with as little human intervention as possible.The forests of Yellowstone got along fine for thousands of years without us. The less we do there the better. I was a firefighter in Yellowstone in '88. Trying to stop those fires was a joke. We wasted millions of tax dollars there. The fires just chased us around...it was time for it to burn...our best efforts (fire lines, back fires, retardant drops by plane and helicopoter) were for not. I watched the fires jump right over Lewis Lake (when a lake doesn't work as a fire break--it is time to go home). After we spent the summer with the fires running us in circles, nature finally put the fires out herself with the October snow.The truth is those fires revitalized and regenerated the forests there. There are about 500 million acres of forests available for commercial timber harvesting...we can leave the National Parks alone.
Excellent discussion everybody, I really hope that we continue this discussion. I personally don't think that there is much of a happy medium between clear cutting and no cutting. The wood is definately something that we are going to be using for a long time. Same with oil.
To me the most important thing covered so far is the expected lifetime of products these days. From houses to cordless drill and drywall knives to cars and electronics. We expect to find a better deal somewhere, usually this comes with a reduced lifespan. More house less money, we will just live in this T-111 box for a couple years and sell it just as it is about to fall apart, and move into someplace bigger. This is not everybody or everything, but it is becoming pervasive.
So what is the solution?
Parallam dimensional lumber, bamboo lumber, wheat lumber. Or should we just be happy there is a roof over our head for now. Route a squirrel
--"I personally don't think that there is much of a happy medium between clear cutting and no cutting."As I mentioned, clear cutting should be used where it best fits the local ecology. The other methods I mentioned (patch cutting and single tree selection) should be used more often. There is another method I wanted to mention called "Shelter Wood," it is similar to thinning. Thinning removes the inferior and competing trees to improve a future harvest, but shelter wood is really a harvest that takes place in two or three cuttings. For instance, harvest half of the trees, allow the remaining half to seed in a new generation that becomes well established, then harvest the second half of the mature trees a decade later.One other note, the single tree selection method is often best accomplished by horse logging. This form of logging almost disappeared, but is gaining popularity again. Here is a link to a horse logging school in my neck of the woods:http://www.cedarriverhorselogging.com/courses.html
basswood,
What you say has merit. One must consider th terrain however and what tree species is being logged. Horse and mule logging was never really effective here in the NW because of the steep terrain. Where it was used most of that terrain is now farms not timber ground. I had a good friend who horse logged for quire a few years here. He never found enough work to really make it pay off for him. Doug Fir is also a very shallow rooted tree, excessive compaction of the roots will kill the tree or seriously weaken it. that is another reason it is often logged on blocks rather then individually.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
When I worked for the USDA Forest Service in Montana, I was based in the Kootenai National Forest. The Kootenai N.F. was known as the "Last Great Horse Forest." Horse logging is still common there. http://www.indivisible.org/pdf/eduguide.pdf page 31Horse logging is limited to slopes of 25% or less (mechanized skidding can handle up to 35% slope), so you do have a point.I predict that timber harvest methods that have lower environmental impacts and visual impacts will become more common. High fuel costs may also help make horse logging more cost effective. When the horse runs out of gas...you let them graze in the forest, while you sharpen your chain saw. ;o)
basswood, Here there is quite a bit of "High Lead " logging done. Portable towers set up now instead of the trees of old used for the leads.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I have never seen High Lead logging in operation. It would be very interesting to see.In the 80's, did some logging in Colorado. We used a nimble little 4WD mid-articulated Holder-brand skidder. I once managed to get it stuck. Now that was an accomplishment! I was pulling a load of logs and hit a boggy area and before I knew what happened the skidder had not only dug all four tires in up to the axels, but the center hinge of the tractor was high-centered on a stump.I took the choker off the logs, ran the cable out to a tree on the edge of the clear cut, and winched the skidder up off the stump and out of the bog. Had I run out of cable before I reached a good anchor-point...I might still be out in that bog.
Dovetail,I just found something you might find interesting:http://www.forestrobots.com/Logg_Dogg/index.htmlThat would be a fun gadget...similar in application to horse logging...without the horse.
Anyone seen a burned over forest?
This burned in 03 or 04. B&B complex. 2 fires that burned together in the Deschutes National Forest. Finally the rains put it out in the Fall.
This was a very beautiful forest prior
Edited 6/8/2007 12:25 am ET by Scrapr
The sides were left shelving, and not stoned; but the sun having never shone on them, the sand still keeps its place. It was but two hours' work. I took particular pleasure in this breaking of ground, for in almost all latitudes men dig into the earth for an equable temperature. -Thoreau's Walden
You're a peach rez
Thanks
That fire burned way over that line of mountains. And the other direction about 30 miles. (?)
here is a map of the fire. 2003 so this is 4 years later. It is hard to tell on this boundary map but this picture was taken off Hwy 20. If you look at the south part of the fire (bottom) there is a highway. That picture is taken from that highway looking south.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/centraloregon/fires/2003/b-b/perimeter-map.shtml
and this is a link to some pictures. Couple of sattelite pics.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/centraloregon/fires/2003/b-b/index.shtml
Edited 6/8/2007 7:04 pm ET by Scrapr
Your burn pic:
View Image
A clear cut:
View Image
Another:
View Image
Yep. Burns are soooo much worse.
:o|
Fight fire with water.
>Parallam dimensional lumber<
I think this has some merit. Most trees cut here in GA (at least what my limited exposure has seen) are usually around 12" dia and smaller. As I understand it it all goes to pulp or chip mills. LVL and other others made from strands don't need the larger logs, the harvested field can be cut again sooner, and the product is probably straighter. But will it be cheaper or priced the same?
I saw your pitures and held off on commenting until I could see where you were heading with this. You seem to understand it reasonably. If done in small enough tracts, clearcutting is the most efficient way of managing forestry harvests.
We get the issue here in Maine too. A lot of those who oppose it do so on emotional grounds and act as though the ground will never again have trees on it.
Fact is that there are far more trees and acreage in forest now than a hundred or a hundred fifty years ago, and there are more trees in the United States thiss yer thaan a year ago or three years ago. Partly because we import more from Canada and south America than we used to, partly because of envirionmental regs and partly because of sound management, which can include clearcut harvesting
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Piffin, I would be very hard pressed to describe a clear cut as anything but what it is , a stand of trees mowed down.. It is hardly pretty. In fact it looks as close to a huge bomb blast as one is likely to ever see without having the blast effects. It is gut wrenching . Slaughter house aren't pretty either, nor as you pointed out strip mines , pit mines , oil refineries, barn yards, manure piles and most other places mankind derives the natural resources to construct our shelters and procure our food from. That said, there is no good economical alternative for the clear cut that has proven to work. Yes helo logging works in some areas but not all. Clear cuts do promote regeneration , animals as someone else noted thrive in clear cut areas, specie diversification in a given area is promoted .A common misconception for new comers here is that the woods are full of game animals (deer, elk , bear etc.) and wild life. The truth is that those animals stay out of the biggest old growth because there is no food for them , they do however find there way to clear cut areas .
I have more deer within ten miles of my house down on the suburban /farm mix land then there are up in the area I took the pictures in. (Actually had one in my back yard last week eating my roses, along with a wild turkey who came a bit later in the day to just visit, and I live in town , not at the edge or outside of it.) The logging industry is pretty heavily regulated here in Or. ( way to regulated I am sure for some of the timber companies and associated businesses) stream beds have protection under the law, steep hillsides are supposed to be protected and reseeded. Water ways of all kinds protected against runoff. It isn't perfect but is a far cry from what it was even 40 yrs. ago when I came here. Next time I am up that way I will try to get some photos of land that had been recently replanted as well as some in various stage of regrowth . One thing to remember is that in 1935 that area burned, it was replanted by human effort in the early 50's, and these trees are now just starting to reach harvesting age. The area that burned was 2/3 the size of Rhode Island. Some parts of the "Burn" will be preserved as state park/forest I feel certain, the rest will be logged as it becomes mature. I think of all the carps who will be using that wood into the future. Sustainable harvest will keep that area producing for ever. One thing I do get out of seeing a clear cut every time I see one is the realization once again that we as humans had better be damn careful about our role in the stewardship of this planet. That we need to take from it is pretty self evident to me. But how we do that can be improved and in the case of clear cuts has been and will continue to be . It may be possible that real "old growth " will once again be harvested for that area some day .
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
If you object to logging. Try using plastic toilet paper.I always laugh when asked "paper or plastic"? My reply is normally "should we drill an oil well or cut down some trees"?Nothing wrong with tree harvesting. The roads make great snowmobile trails. I've traveled on thousands of miles of those roads. The wildlife they bring in feed like mad off the cut tops and fresh new growth. Just where is the wood coming from for our building? While not pretty 100% of the time it needs to be done and it keeps people working from the equipment builders and operators to the end user. The roads also provide access into the woods to fight these fires. You can't say that about the roadless woods plan that burns tens of thousands of acres every year.The crunchy people (RESTORE and Roxanne Quimbly AKA Burt's Bees come to the top of my list) should stay home, and stop telling others what to do with their land. Turning 3 million acres into a park will do what??????
You have a right to your opinion, no question.
But virtually everything I've read in this thread rationalizing clearcuts - "it's necessary to maintain our current lifestyle", "we are the dominant species so we can do what benefits us", "if we didn't do it, nature would and it would be far worse"...there's probably more I don't recall...ALL those arguments are almost word for word how our forefathers justified slavery. And westward expansion into land occupied by other people. And picking a fight with Mexico so we could expand our borders to the Pacific.
We have a long history of violent conquest in this country. It has brought us where we are today. No reason to change our attitudes if we are happy with where we stand. It's just that a lot of us AREN'T proud of what we've done. What we do every day.
A lot of us believe the earth was here long before man, and will be here long after we've gone. To many of us "stewardship" doesn't mean "doing everything we can to benefit from what's here".
But seriously, you have a right to have a different opinion. I'm not saying I am "right" - just that I have a different belief system, and I don't think I'm alone.
Heck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Edited 6/5/2007 10:02 am ET by jimblodgett
I agree with you in general but what's our alternative to houses made of wood? Metal? Never been a fan of metal framing but that's not to say I can't be.
john7g, Not to defend the mess clear cutting makes of the landscape, but if one is looking at an alternative material for building one needs to consider the mess mining makes of the landscape as well. I do not think iron ore is going to "regrow" in my lifetime.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
dovetail,
I'm not attacking clear cutting or lumber usage. The photos you posted show sites much cleaner than any of the clear cut sites I see here in GA. Jim was advocating alternate use & better stewardship and I'm kind of curious for an example of the alternatives being as not many come to mind. Metal was the 1st to mind but maybe recycled plastic like the comp. decking materials but that's not a good option either since it still relies on fossil fuels & doens't have the struct. capacity yet.
I wish we could do better but we don't seem to have many choices. Just curious to what Jims alternates are.
And is good stewardship maintaining the forest even though parts may have to be destroyed to save the rest? About 10 years ago I saw parts of the Natl Forest in N GA clear cut and all burned (not one stick was hauled out) to stop a pine beetle infestation. Is good stewardship allowing nature to take it's course, keeping man & his machines out of the forest? Or interveneing like the example above?
_______
One improvement I've seen lately that's been driven by the poor air quality in the Atlanta area is that the slash piles aren't burned anymore. Tub grinders and an grinder attachment on an trackhoe are returning more nutrients to the soil than a pile of ash. It's kind of moot though since there's not much land left in the surrounding area used for wood growth; developments are growing where trees used to.
Cheers
What's the alternative? That's a tough one, no doubt. And I certainly don't have any good answers.
But I THINK it could start with a different approach to how we live. Last summer I had a large (for me) job finishing a house about an hour's drive from my home. Pretty much the entire drive west, I met tradespeople driving east to work in or around the town I live in, then met the same trucks driving west at night as I drove back home. That got my attention.
What about this? You notice how homes are being built to lower and lower standards? Mostly in the name of "keeping the price down"? But the result is, more and more people can afford these cheap houses and because they invest so little, they see them as "cheap houses"? More or less disposable, like mobile homes? Where the expectation is the house will only last one generation anyway, so why take care of it? We'll just move into another (bigger) one in a few years anyways?
So the perception becomes the reality and the houses only last one generation and therefore there is a "need" for more lumber to build new homes because it's "cheaper" to tear down the old one...what the heck, keeps the economy humming, right?
But bottom line, we are on a destructive path. The more we have, the more we want. Seems like we are trying to fill a hole inside us with more and more stuff, but the hole only gets larger and larger. We lost our way along time ago. I hope it's not too late.
Heck said it first. I just agreed with him.
I grew up in Indiana, I know what harvested fields of all kinds, look like.I have been in and out of many different gravel pits, and mines.There is something innate about those places. It may not be pretty. It may even be kinda ugly. But there is a feeling that something is being done. There is a sort of feeling of symetry. It, too, shall pass.But driving through a clearcut... Or getting out and actually having a look...There is such a feeling of devastation. Of death. It is palpable.We -do- need to harvest the trees. But do we need to do it in such a rapacious way ? Can't it be done in a way that makes us good stewards of the rest of the life all around us ? The rest of the life that used to be in what was forest, and is now only a dead, raped, patch of ugliness...
Fight fire with water.
But do we need to do it in such a rapacious way ? Can't it be done in a way that makes us good stewards of the rest of the life all around us ? The rest of the life that used to be in what was forest, and is now only a dead, raped, patch of ugliness...
Ah, the 64K question.
When I've asked the timber types I know, the answer isusually some form of "nature is unruly." The state of the art is that you overplant, a bit, to start. This helps fill in the less even areas, and allows for a bit more erosion control until everything roots in. Recommended practice is to never reuse a stump location, exactly, too. That works against orderly rows of trees over a "neat" understory, which would have clean "lanes" to harvest in/from/along. it's also a major change in the environment that has been as it is for 4, 6, 8, whatever years.
Or, at least, that's how it's been explained to me. I could have it wrong, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"We -do- need to harvest the trees."
We might not need to harvest them at the rate we do though, Jeff. Is it possible we could do with less?
I guess I just have a real hard time believing the natural world is there for the benefit of humans. Of course, that's how we justify our actions, but it just never rang true to me. Heck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Yes. I think we could do with less.Gramma and all those third world people have it right, when they take their canvas or mesh bags with them when they shop.That'd save some trees.Have the water company give a rebate on bidets, just like the electric company gives rebates on those compact forescent bulbs. That'll save a few more.Outlaw packages a foot and a half wide, for a product that is 8 inches wide. (Done just to take up more space on the shelf and make people -feel- like they are getting more.)The newspaper companies should have to pay a rebate for every newspaper returned to them for recycling. Hey, they do it with bottles. Both glass and plastic. Ok, so we'll have to give the newspaper a break and let them rebate by weight...You know all those cardboard boxes that products are shipped in ? Yeah the ones that liquor gets to the liquor store in, and groceries get to the grocery store in, etc...Make the manufacturers start using tough, fold up nylon/plastic 'boxes' for that purpose. Let them charge a bit more, and then pay a rebate to the grocer when the grocer returns the folded up boxes.They kinda do that with milk and pop crates. Only the crates don't fold to a more compact size. But it could be done.You know all those flyers and newspaper size advertisements you get from the grocery store, every week or more ? Quadruple the price of sending those out. Or more. The post office benefits from this one, as well.
Fight fire with water.
LOL, never heard "crunchy people" before. We call them Granolas
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A couple random thoughts sparked by your comments:
"... we import more from Canada and south America than we used to ..."
One of our local Home Depots stocks pine boards from Sweden. This is just their regular "one-by" pine, but each board has a sticker that says "Product of Sweden."
I've done no research, so I don't know exactly what kind of pine it is. But most of the boards are very dense, straight grain, and much of it is heartwood. It's beautiful stuff, really, and I've used a lot of it.
But it strikes me as strange that North America is importing basic lumber from Europe.
"Fact is that there are far more trees and acreage in forest now than a hundred or a hundred fifty years ago ..."
Very true. During the decade of the 1990s, however, my county in western New York State actually saw a decrease in wooded land, as a few successful farmers cleared additional acreage. This was the only county in the state that saw such a decline in forest during that period.
But, there are still far more wooded areas here now than a hundred years ago.
I have a few acres (mabye 13 acres or so) that I decided to stop leasing to my farmer neighbor. I had it seeded 10 years ago as "pasture." I planted trees in hedgerows to create smaller, more historic-looking "fields." But nature wants it to be forest, and the more aggressive trees like ash-leafed maples (boxelder) are quickly taking over large portions.
Allen
"it strikes me as strange that North America is importing basic lumber from Europe"It doesn't strike me as strange that we import lumber given the regulations that are partly designed to discourage logging in this country and this state, but that we import it from Europe does seem strange. We also get some from Russia.The northern trees like Sitka spruce are very dense because they grow so slow way up north, but once they get logged, they will take a long time to regrow again
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But it strikes me as strange that North America is importing basic lumber from Europe.
Sweden, eh? Most of the "whitewood" (i.e. radiata pine) I see in our local big-box stores comes from Chile (I think) or New Zealand. While I'm sure it's produced sustainably, I can't imagine that transporting it thousands (in the case of NZ, 10,000) of miles really qualifies as "green," or even responsible.
Jason
New Zealand?! The economics must work somehow. I mentioned the Swedish pine to Andy Angel, and he wasn't surprised; says the shipping costs are minimal using those big ocean-going cargo ships.
I did a little research into Swedish lumber exports. Although most of their lumber production is exported, a decade ago none of it came to the U.S. Something has changed since then.
What amazes me is that this lumber is slow-growing stuff. Very dense grain ... a hundred years of growth in a 5-inch board.
Allen
During the past decade, Sweden has dramatically increased the lumber output of their saw mills, while simultaneously harvesting less timber from their forests......sounds impossible, but they are importing huge volumes of cheap whole logs from Russia, Estonia, and Latvia. They mill these logs in Sweden and then export them to us.Twenty five years ago, we exported lumber to Sweden.
While I was working with some of that "Swedish" wood yesterday, it occurred to me that "Product of Sweden" may well mean finished product (milled lumber), with the raw material coming from elsewhere.
It's easy to imagine those vast Siberian forests producing the type of wood I'm seeing at Home Depot.
Allen
Radiata Pine is an interesting story. It is native to a very restricted range along the California Coast. The tiny territory where this tree naturally grows, less than 20,000 acres, is scattered along 130 miles of coastline around Monterey, CA (hence the common name for the tree, Monterey Pine--Pinus radiata is the scientific name).The great irony is that the tree grows far better in Australia, New Zealand, Spain, and Chile than it does in the USA. It is now the worlds number one producing pine tree.In these new lands, this tree grows extremely fast and produces high volumes of clear lumber.
One of our local Home Depots stocks pine boards from Sweden. This is just their regular "one-by" pine, but each board has a sticker that says "Product of Sweden."
Some lumber I got at Lowes a couple months back was from Austria. I couldn't help by think, "how can it possibly be cheaper to ship a 2x4 from Austria than from somewhere else in the US?!" Besides the obvious point of, "how can a country as small as Austria be exporting lumber?"
[edit to add] Besides which, what is a 'metric' country doing cutting 2x4s?
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
Edited 6/7/2007 10:13 am by JohnT8
Seems there's been an increase in U.S. imports of basic construction lumber from places other than Canada.
A quick Internet search hasn't satisfied my curiosity about this.
A weakening dollar? Tighter restrictions on domestic production? A change in importation policies (tariffs, etc.)?
Hmmmm...
Allen
Maybe a month ago, a batch of 2x4's at Lowes was super clean looking. But they didn't have a sticker on the end identifying where they came from. I just needed a few, but I was tempted to buy the whole pallet because they looked so good. Just a very few pin-sized knots, otherwise just clean wood. I was able to find 6 good ones out of the first 8 I pulled off the stack.
And they were 'construction' grade. They looked WAY better than the 'top choice' stuff they had for 60 cents more per 2x4.
Maybe that was a load of the Swedish wood.jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
I wish I knew al the reasons why too. Some of it does not make sense.It does make sense for a developing nation in need of cash to export lumber cheap enough for it to be competitive with our domestic lumber, but Austria, new Zealand, and Sweden don't seem to fit that description on the surface. Brazil and the Phillipines do though.A weaker dollar encourages us to export, not to import so that is not it.in my state here, there has been a constant barrage of new regulations that have been driving the traditional industries out of the state. Logging is a selected target. They are trying to preserve it for the tourists, meanwhile putting people out of work.
Somehow leadership here sees tech industry as more important than traditional farming, fishing, and logging.. Most of the states mills and paper/pulp plants have shut down because it is cheaper to produce elsewhere with all the regs.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
in a year or 2 those clearcuts will make for very good deer and elk hunting.
wait .. wait... wait.
Wood comes from Trees ?!?
wow.
I hate U ...
and it's all yer fault.
or words to that effect.
btw ... nice pics. appearently most people don't ever see that.
god forbid anyone ever goes to a saw mill ... that's where the real blood is shed ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Last Monday I was up North clearing blow-downs on my section of Appalachian Trail and discovered flagging tape along the trail corridor, indicating the timber company working that area is going to cut their bordering property soon. Also found they have extended their haul road into the area.
Since the rest of their work is clear cut (or nearly clear cut) I expect the same next to the trail. The cost of road building, land purchase, and maintaining it practically dictates that they take all the product they can in order to make it worthwhile.
The half mile of trail effected by the cut will be tree-butt ugly for a few years, but not without some benefits.
By coincidence, the property on other side of the trail was recently purchased by Roxanne Quimby who has gated the roads and forbidden all motorized vehicles. Hikers, skiers, campers, fishermen, (not sure about hunting), are welcome to use her land.
So the Appalachian Trail is literally "in the middle." Most of us see the benefits of both land uses. Hikers will get to witness all sides of the equation. In Maine, the trail wanders through many types of timber harvest.
The cutting will provide jobs, and products, one of which will be wood chips for bio fueled electrical generation plants. Quimby will guarantee some undisturbed wilderness for recreation.
The losers in both properties are the ATV users. They have, though, benefited by the opening of miles of abandoned railroad beds in that part of the State. Everyone gets something, everyone loses something. 'Bout as good as it's gonna get.
The cost of road building, land purchase, and maintaining it practically dictates that they take all the product they can in order to make it worthwhile.
I've been told that. Probably true on large scale logging. Certainly the norm here.
When the state's head forester came out to prepare my timber plan he was of the same thought. I was all ears, wanting to learn as much as I could. Then after listening to his lecture I asked about continuous yield. How many trees could I cut, per area, every year? He'd never heard of the concept. Head guy in Virginia, with a very important timber crop, armed with soil maps, and had just spent hours hiking my woods. I explained it and his mouth fell open.
His next question of course was what logging company would do that.
I then explained the option of selling lumber vs logs. His mouth did another landing-strip for flies. He left shaking his head, had never met anybody who considered distinct alternatives. I wanted to maximize my return, just as he thought he knew how to do. Major difference between the approaches when we got down to the nitty gritty of how much a tree was worth (market value).
I'll give him credit for knowing and appreciating the advantage of leaving a few standing dead trees. Everybody's gotta have a home. He was very happy to hear my interest. Biodiversity was not lost on him, just alternative harvesting.
Won't be any clear-cutting on this mountain, couldn't afford it. BTW, the logging outfits do a similar jaw-drop when I explain why I don't want them. Big trees, lots of offers.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Our state foresters are quite knowledgeable about selective cutting and managing a forest in the manner you describe. The State will donate some forrester consultation time every year to woodlot owners.
We also have a very active small woodlot owners association that conducts several seminars yearly on maintaining, harvesting, and sometimes even portable sawmill use. (Still a few people up here who log with horses too!)
In the case of the lot next to my section, it's owned by a large company who, I believe, answers to stockholders. It also involves a bridge that they will want to remove after harvesting for liability reasons.
Hope you are successful with your plans. Beautiful way to do it. The best, in my opinion.
Hope you are successful with your plans. Beautiful way to do it. The best, in my opinion.
Thank you. Looks that way to me. I'm not up to steam yet, and don't have much idea of growth rates. That's what I was most eager to learn. I've dealt with a couple of private timber advisors who knew less than the state guy. Amazing some of the wrong information they're propagating.
One of my neighbors grows pines, but that's a whole different business. He's got thousands of acres supplying his high-production sawmill.
Been here long enough to be getting a feel for growth rate, but with hardwoods it's difficult.
Not trying to change the world but, like my house, trying to set a better example. Occasionally gets noticed. Clear-cutting sure is ugly for a long while here.
Pretty sure a horse wouldn't make it on my slopes, but I've learned how to winch carefully. Have had several landowners suggest that they'd love to find somebody for horse-logging. Won't be me.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VATom, What you are describing as your preferred method is quite common here among small woodlot owners. State advice is available , and there are Small woodlot groups and consultants as well. I am aware of one individual who purchased a replanted clear cut, trees maybe 15-20 yrs old. He started limbing the trees up just as high as he could. He is planning on his kids owning a plot of virtually clear DF when the trees are harvested."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Glad to hear that. Mostly unheard of here. But not a lot of small woodlots, generally major owners.
And the frequent tiny, 5-10 acre ones. Which will interest me, once I get into production. Built a pintle log arch for the occasion.
I'm still inbetween on a sawmill. Don't want the investment for a nice bandmill or the time investment setting up a circular. And have lately had trouble finding anyone willing with a portable bandmill. Eventually I'll find the path. In the meantime, the trees get bigger.
One thing I do enjoy, on a very limited basis, is chainsaw milling long beams. There's a 38' butt log awaiting me now. The top of the tree went to the guy who helps me (and owns the mill). 1 1/2 cords of red oak, he was tickled when I dumped it off. I've got little use and selling it looks like a money-losing proposition.
One nice thing about a mixed deciduous forest is it takes care of itself. No limbing necessary. And I get a major RE tax break, which would otherwise cause us to sell out.
Life's not bad.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Built a pintle log arch for the occasion.
Not familiar with that term - is that a log carrier?
Yup, should have read pintled, as in for a pintle hitch. My tongue telescopes to accomodate longer loads without being cumbersome all the time. Provision for a lever-handle chain hoist to pick the log up and chains to secure. Back half of the log of course just sticks out behind. Used the highspeed hubs from my Oldsmobile cupola, if you saw that thread.
What was that about "waste not, want not"? Junkhound puts me to shame, but I try.
IIRC, I designed for max 28' load. Figured it'd be simple to make a longer tongue if the situation arises. I also wanted something that would gracefully haul steel bar joists if I get lucky at an auction.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
OK, know what you're talking about.
http://www.thomasbandsawmills.com is "up the road a piece" and sells bandsaw mills, edgers, and an arched log hauler. Just tried to find it and found the mill and their edger, but no picture of their hauler. I've seen it and watched their mill in operation. Their mill is a great tool for the money. Even has an attachment for cedar shingles.
Thanks for the link. I gather they only offer manual feed and no debarker? Hope those dogs aren't as flimsy as they appear. You're right about price. They list both an arch and a hauler. I'd guess the arch isn't road-worthy, but you have to talk to them to discern.
http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm is a site I visit occasionally. I'm being unrealistically cheap in my search so far. Have passed up a couple of circular mills that were free if you bought the power unit.
Have you spent much time sawing? I've done enough to know it's nothing I'd be interested in doing for others, a common way to pay for the mill. I'd like to saw a very few days/yr which makes a production mill look like a bunch of money sitting idle.
Only been recently I've had any problem finding someone willing to bring their mill here. My main guy's back finally got so bad he can't, and hasn't been interested in talking about selling his mill. It needs help and I'd be adding a power feed and debarker at least.
My machinist has been halfway through getting his circular mill set up for a couple of years. Hauling logs isn't much fun, but I've left a standing offer to help him finish it. Just hauled what he needs to get his Hough ready to work, but I'm not expecting to saw anything there this year.
One of these days something'll fall into place.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks for your link.
Yep, the Thomas Mill is pretty basic. I've seen it operate and, from my limited experience, it looks like a good machine. They claim the mill is very roadworthy. Don't know about the arch, but I would guess not. Looked like a handy rig though.
No, I have practically no experience sawing other than a lot of observation time and a little time helping. One of my siblings and I own a wood lot which I'd like to take logs from without hiring a contractor. Trouble is, it's 125 miles from here and 25 miles from my camp which makes the logistics of hauling equipment and product more difficult. Plus, it's located in an area where I wouldn't want to leave equipment sitting around. My best scenario would be to haul a few logs at a time to my camp and mill them there.
I agree with you, milling for myself and a couple friends would be a lot of fun, but I don't want to get into it big time. I rented a good sized commercial chipper last week and chipped up some blow-downs at my rental. Another job that is fun for a short while.
I keep checking out mills and dreaming....
I've enjoyed the chat.
oldfred
Here's a company that makes some great equipment for small scale logging. http://www.futureforestry.com
Hey Tom - you have any photos of that trailer?Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Thanks!
Could, should, don't. Tomorrow. Flat tire and all (haven't used it lately).
If you're gonna have a mill, you might want one. I know, I know, mills are portable, but sometimes it's a lot easier to move the log.
That Future Forestry stuff is for small logs. Wouldn't survive here. ATV? My 4500 lb tractor is too small. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Here you go. And the end of that log, 500 bd ft (Doyle scale), FAS. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Sweet. You winch the log up off the ground?You take a look at that "fetching arch" on the Future Forestry site? I have my eye on that - have to wait and see if getting the tractor in good shape busts the budget. Ordered my mill this morning from Linn Lumber - should be ready by October.Is that an ash log? What diameter at 20'? Nice looking log.Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Everybody moving logs could use an arch of some sort. If for no other reason than to keep the log clean. Take a look at the proposed tow vehicle and you'll get an idea of what it'll hold. That 4500 lb tractor hooked up in my photo isn't one I'd use to descend with a large log. I've experienced the excitement of getting pushed by a too-heavy trailer. Don't care to repeat. Flat-land, much less issue.
That top post on my arch has a stub to hang a lever-handle chain hoist. I wanted to be self-contained, avoid hauling a tractor to the log site. Back the truck/arch up to the log, load, and head home. Whole thing was cobbled from what I had on hand. Vast majority of nice logs end up firewood here as they're too much trouble to move and not enough lumber to justify bringing in a portable mill. I wanted to be able to transport 36" d, large enough to quarter-saw nicely.
That's red oak. Little taper, typical here. At 20' still 20". The only reason I dropped it was having made the mistake of building under it. Roofer who loaned me the copper tools pointed out my error. 40' branches over-hanging the copper roof weren't going to stay up there forever. Was a lovely tree.
Leaned to the building, so I set 2 cables to pull the other way. Truck winch and come-along. When you buy cable, pay attention to load-rating. Most has very little. This was labeled "aircraft", no idea why. First, pull the tree into balance on the hinge. Then a little more tension and it goes the way you want. I'm never at the stump when a cabled one goes down.
Hoo boy! Tractor, mill, and arch. You're gonna be in business. Linn Lumber I don't know, which mill? Actually, don't remember which tractor either. Might have missed that thread. You're gonna love the independence. Congratulations.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yeah, I'm no logger but the first time I recognised an old tracked arch for what it was I saw the value. That stuff they have available now for small scale logging is way cool. An arch is high on my list of peripheral equipment.I ordered a manual mill with 10hp electric motor, chain and sprocket hand crank feed system, electric up/down, cuts 28"x16'logs...one thing I really like about Linn is they make the mill you want, and I can upgrade to electric feed and/or longer bed later if I want. Still won't have any hydraulics, but I don't plan on cutting for hire. Really looking forward to this.Found an old used 33hp 4WD tractor for moving logs, lumber, sawdust around. We'll see.Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
Edited 6/21/2007 12:04 am ET by jimblodgett