kinda lost my cool today – client wanted me throw in 4′ high wainscot around his bathroom basically for free. Been crying about it for weeks. I wasn’t about to. This is a guy with money, who’s been bragging business is better than its ever been (he does evictions).
My tile guy’s bid was 1400, my price to h.o. was 1700 (10% profit, 10% overhead). So today he goes to my tile guy as asks if he’ll do it for 1200.
Pi$$ed me off, I said it doesn’t matter what he’ll do it for, he doesn’t give prices on my job, only I do that.
So we had words, some of mine I’m not too proud of. But bottom line is h.o. is mad because A) he thinks I’m making a lot of money (if they only knew!) on his room addition, since he imagined me having a stable of sub’s, and instead I’m doing most the work myself B) the economy has tanked, so he figures I should just start giving away the farm for the privelege of working at all, and C) He can buy a house for only $50K more than his room addition is costing
He raised his voice to me, I showed him I can do that too.
We both apologized in the end, I told him if he bought the materials I’ll do it for $980 (my price had $600 materials, the price my sub listed, plus 10% profit 10% overhead), so if he buys materials I’m waiving my markup.
Sometimes I wonder – Why am I even in this business.
“…craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit.” – P. Korn
Edited 12/23/2008 8:48 pm by Huck
Replies
I know where your coming from, get him to sign a waver as to you covering any warranty work on that part of the job.
I know a guy on $500k a year and crys about the prices at IKEA! I kid you not!
Had others on very low money pay me all upfront to stop them spending it in the mean time!
Different folks, different strokes
maybe he's in hock up to his eyeballs, like the guy in the commercial.
notice that hasn't been running lately.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
To steal the line from the wine commercial..."How do you think I got soooo rich...?"
Did your tile guy discuss pricing with the HO, or did he defer the conversation to you?
Did your tile guy discuss pricing with the HO, or did he defer the conversation to you?
He said he couldn't discuss price, only his partner could do that. That's when I intervened and said it don't matter what him or his partner say, until after I'm gone. While I'm here, I give the prices on my job, nobody else.
He was so shook up, he left when things got heated up, came back an hour later and he was still shaking."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
He said he couldn't discuss price, only his partner could do that. That's when I intervened...
Just maybe it wasn't necessary for you to intervene?
I know it's your job and you're responsible for all aspects of it, but it sounds like your tile sub can be depended on to do the right thing and maybe you could have just let it go unless the HO brought it up directly with you.
Without the benefit of hindsight, I doubt that I would have handled it any better and I'm not trying to be critical, but maybe it's something to think about for next time.
I'm not second guessing you or saying I know better.
I just wish you could have been in a position to say you wouldn't do it for any less than the qouted price and that was that.
Every car, truck and tractor in America should run on natural gas- it's the future.
basically he is getting it for the quoted price - but he has to provide the materials. All I backed out was the materials cost - and my markup on it, which means I don't have to handle it. He gets it to the job, we put it in. He thinks he'll save a bunch of money, I'm not so sure. But then, I really don't care. I just want to get the job done, get paid, and get out."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
It is one of those times when one part of you wants to tell him to pound sand but in the long run one bad comment from him to the right folks could overshadow all the good will and rebutals you could ever come up with.
I would tell my sub not to ever do that again, would tell the customer that he can get the materials and ther is no warranty on it. Would remind him of schedule impacts if he does not have material on site when scheduled and costs involved to bring people back.
I guess this is what you should expect when working with someone who does evictions who is bragging about how great business is.
For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
I guess this is what you should expect when working with someone who does evictions who is bragging about how great business is.
LOL!!!"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I forgot the winking smiley, guess it is like the proctologist who said I think my client may be an ***hole.
Merry Christmas to you and all!! Bob
For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Edited 12/25/2008 1:16 am ET by rasconc
Some people are domineering, cheap, and callous. Sounds like your client is like that. It looks like you are about done, so just keep on truckin. If it means anything, you have really made a nice record of your progress that I have greatly enjoyed. And who knows, this guy may end up getting you more jobs by reference.
Geez, I'm sorry, man. This client has seemed challenging. Going around you to your sub is really, really classless. You could explain your liability, etc. even if he pays him directly, but that's beside the point. un-f'ing-cool.
I don't know you, but I've followed your posts, and I have no doubt you were justified in everything you said. I'm also sure this guy is getting a good deal and you're not getting rich, regardless of what he could buy etc..
I'm guessing that you do the work you do as much for yourself as for any client. While it can really chafe to know that an unappreciative (jerk?) client is benefitting from your dedication, at least you know you do good work for a good price.
Sometimes I feel like a sucker for doing good work for a good price, when some PITA is trying to take advantage of me. In fragile moments, I look around at the people who are getting over on the system, and wonder if I'm stupid or weak for not doing the same.
But then I remember that I do what I do for me, in the end, even if it's on someone else's property. In a way, you will have a stronger connection to that remodel than the guy living there.
And, I would never debate or try to convince anyone of this, but I personally believe that our effort and care will come back to us. Maybe not on this job, but somehow, it'll come back to you (and him). In a way, I feel bad for him (even beyond his family's troubles). A guy like him is living in his own punishment every day, because he can't appreciate the gifts being given to him.
Pat yourself on the back for being a good guy doing good work.
kevin
Going around you to your sub is really, really classless.
Maybe the client was asleep in class that day and didn't know the "Rules For Dealing With A GC"."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
And don't take any ####.
k
that's funny - that there afterthought. Yeah, I agree with everything you said.
You know, I don't want to have try to educate people to what a contractor's overhead is, or explain my life's work or my finances to them, I just build what they hired me to build, for the price they agreed to pay. Why is that so hard for some people?"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
The guy does evictions for a living.
I wouldn't have expected him to be of the highest character, if you know what I mean.
But, I agree with others, going around your back to your sub shows all you need to know about this loser.
I get really tired of people asking me to justify my price...or at least I used to.
Though I didn't go to college, I (we) have a wealth of knowledge that the people we work for do not have. Just as any doctor, lawyer, eviction guy, etc.
Lawyers are upwards of $100/hr. Justify that?
$100,000+ for a "routine" back surgery to fuse a couple vertibrae? Took him 2 hours, and was probably like hanging a door and casing it out for me (routine)...I wonder what his markup was?
I commend you on telling the guy no one gives prices on your jobs but you until you are done. I make it perfectly clear to any subcontractors on my jobs that they are not permitted to give quotes or discuss cost on anything to any of the clients while our sign is in the yard. Most of them will call me and ask if it is OK even after the job is long over.
I am fair, as I believe all or at least most of us are, and maybe this fella would like to pay for his sister's ex-brother-in-law who used to work for a guy who knew a girl who was maried to a carpenter's helper's friend's dad come do some work in his house...
...I'm sure he'd like the price.
Not disagreeing with you on the overall point, but just to clarify...The spine surgeon's labor charge is probably 7-10% of the figure you give. The rest goes to the hospital to pay for the nurses and therapists, the anesthesiologist (who may bill separately), the hardware (you wouldn't believe how much one of those screws costs) and consumables, the drugs, and the maintenance of a safe, sterile environment in which to perform the surgery and monitor the patient's condition afterward..The surgeon's fee includes all follow-up care and his overhead, which includes his office, his office staff and their benefits, his continuing education, and his malpractice insurance, which alone can easily cost $100,000 annually. Spine surgeons and obstetricians have the highest rates in the business, because of the magnitude of the risk they take on.None of which is to say that the spine surgeon makes out poorly in the end. They do quite all right. But the average orthopaedist (and spine surgeons can be orthopaedists or neurosurgeons) gets sued once every 4 years, which is a big blow to the self-esteem as well as a time and money sink (and the reason for the high malpractice insurance rates). It's not all roses.Rebeccah
The spine surgeon's labor charge is probably 7-10% of the figure you give...It's not all roses.
Boy that sounds soooo familiar - where have I heard that before?
Unseen job costs, insurance, overhead, risk of lawsuit (and blows to self-esteem), and peripherals eating up the lion's share, with the skilled practitioner drawing only a small percentage to bring home to momma at the end of the week.
I know I've run into that scenario somewhere...it'll come to me!
=)"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Funny how some of the most financiallyt secure people are also some of the cheapest! No sub should be giving prices until you are off the job. and no client should be asking. Where I work if I do a "side job" for an existing customer of my employer I would be looking for a new job.
ML
Good post and it's great to get another perspective on medical costs. It's my belief that the health insurance industry, and the free spending that it's coverage promotes, is a big portion of the health care problems we face today. With that said, I tried like crazy to justify the $3200 it cost me to get a tooth implant done by a local oral surgeon, weighing his charges against his costs for all the things you outlined helped me a great deal. In the end, I thought it was a lot of money for the time spent but then he had all kinds of staff and overhead...I felt like his charges were justified. However, I used the bathroom in the office while waiting and it was a bit over the top. It was a unisex bathroom but it was not, by any means, sheet flooring and cheap furnishings, we're talking Roman columns on both sides of the sink, top of the line Toto toilets with Infrared technology and bidet seat. No paper towels in this bath, he had a stack of folded cloth towels on a heated shelf and a freshly opened bar of soap next to the sink. Really! Is all this necessary!!! Maybe he could cut some of his overhead by just using paper towels...it would have made more points from my perspective.PS He also had flowers delivered to my home address with a thank you note attached for using his services. Again, I would have been happier if he just lowered his cost a bit and didn't send flowers. A competent and professional treatment was more then enough for me to feel like it was money well spent.
I have a dentist in the ghetto. He's reasonable and good.
A dentist will do me no good when it comes to implants!
Get a oral surgeon from the ghetto?
I might just be guessing here but I'm not really comfortable with qualifying my dental care to just those working in the ghetto! Just the same, thanks for the suggestion.
Well, I gotta agree with that!
Your oral surgeon may be charging high rates, but you will be very glad that you went with the implant rather than a bridge or something.I had a molar implant 10 years ago and it is just like having a real tooth except it can't get cavities.Maybe you can list him as subcontractor doing "crown work" and write his bill off on your taxes? :)BruceT
Lawyers are upwards of $100/hr. Justify that
Chep lawyer, mine is at 400/hr! Worth every penny!
Then you be in the wrong business!
Just my opinion.
Russell
That is true, but I have one I am very sastified with!
That's what is important.
Russell
Chep lawyer, mine is at 400/hr! Worth every penny!
That's my point. We're woth every penny, too. No Coffee No Workee!
yep
Though I didn't go to college, I (we) have a wealth of knowledge that the people we work for do not have. Just as any doctor, lawyer, eviction guy, etc.
I had a customer once tell me she sat down and figured out how much I made, and I make more than she does, and she spent 6 years in college, and she's not paying me any more than we had already agreed to and blah, blah, blah....
I never told her I didn't go to college, she assumed it.
She writes novels for a living while her husband (a really swell guy) works 12 to 14 hours a day for his 6 figure income.
I just said "okay". I was refinishing some old trim, finished up, never worked for them again - not so much because she refused to pay me any more than we agreed on (duh?), but because she is there all day every day, and has a whiny, screechy voice that makes me cringe.
I guess this relates to the eviction guy story on some level. The moral is, there are enough ignoramus in this world to keep everybody miserable, if we let them.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools - BuildersTools.netSee my work - TedsCarpentry.com
sounds like this guy doesn't see the value in your work.
Given what he does for a living it kind of makes sense.
We started a new program a little while back and it has been very popular with our clients.
In our presentation to a prospective client, we include copies of all of our quotes from the vendors that we purchase material from, and also show our markups added in for profit and overhead.
What it has done is to give the homeowner more ownership of the budgeting process. It truly shows them in black and white what we are charging and that we are making a fair profit. We have not had a client try and bargain the price down since we started the program.
It has worked well for us, you may want to give it a try.
sully... is this T & M ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We do this on all jobs.
Works out great.
sully.... do you work T & M.... or is this fixed price contract ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The sort of process is based on the presumption that by being open, you earn some trust with honest and open people.I find that the more details I give up front, the more they are wanting to use that info to negotiate me down. like providing the bullets to the enemy.or even when they are honest, they can muck up costs by being too involved in budgetary 'ownership'.Take a rhetorical scenario:Included in a bid is $700 to re do the SR on a wall.
The client say they like that wall the way it is, so don't do that.
They are thinking, "Whooooeee! I just saved seven bills, so I can spend that on junior's new carpet in his bedroom!"
They tell me go ahead and do that carpet we talked about, not letting me in on their thinking.But because we needed to open that wall to pull some wires, we now need to fish the wire or find an alternate route, adding $500 to the electrical cost.Final bill, and "HOW COME THIS IS MORE THAN THE ESTIMATE!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have noticed everyone that does this laughs with his friends and brags how they worked the contractor.
However i let myself get worked a little if i make out in the big picture
I believe that many people who behave that way are hard nosed because the business environment that they work in demands it of them, in order to be successful. They just have a difficult time, learning how and when to turn off that attitude and that approach.
I've learned to tell clients my rules up front. It may be their home but while I'm working on it, it's going to be my job site. If we can't agree on that, there's no point in continuing the conversation.
Once that's established, there is seldom any problem with getting cooperation on other matters.
And I guess you already have, or have a mental note to add to your next contract, a clause dealing with homeowner/general contractor/subcontractor chain of communication, right?
I'm adding lanuage to my contracts about travel in bad weather (icy roads) becuse it came up last week for the first time since I've been writing contracts.
Contracts. Always a work in progress.
Edited 12/24/2008 2:23 am ET by jimblodgett
Contracts. Always a work in progress.
I could tell you a few I wish I had in force on this job: $100 fee (per each) to discuss extras or changes (refundable for each extra that is bid and agreed upon). At the time extras are bid, there is a one week window of opportunity to discuss it - if at the end of the week no agreement has been reached, the bid is null and void and the job moves on without the extra. If it comes up again, the fee goes into force again.
Clarification on who the contractor works for: the contractor works for the contract. That is his boss, and determines everything he does. What the client wishes must be stated in the contract, or drawn on the plans and specs, if they are part of the contract. Any changes or choices not in the contract, or in the plans and specs, must be written into a change order and added to the contract.
Contact with sub's would be regulated.
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
So sit right there and add those clauses to your standard contract, while the issues are fresh in your mind. The first contract I wrote was less than a page. I am up to 4 full pages now, and growing.
Got to go. Have to alter that paragraph regarding inclement weather...
THEN I hope to go to the darkroom for the first time in several months! Hah! LOVE having several days off! Even stayed up late reading last night and slept past dawn!
I've learned that there are people who will nickle and dime and try to work you every chance they get. It's hardwired into the character of who they are. Mostly I'm able smell these people out anymore and I simply don't take the job unless times are tough...and if I have to take the job, then I compensate a bit in the up front price. I've turned down some fairly large jobs because of this, and it was tough to walk away with my pocket full of self doubt. Ultimately though I know it was worth it. Other guys can deal with people like this and God bless 'em. Even if I would make money, I simply don't have time for the aggravation, it's not worth it to me and maybe I'll just have to die with a little less money in the bank. So be it.
However....there are the times when you ARE in the middle of a job, and they start in with their sh!tty little shenanigans and you have to do what is best. There are so many things to think about when this happens. What about my reputation? Will this set a precedent for me? Are they going to laugh & call me a schmuck behind my back? Do I care? Do I have other work to take the place of this if I walk? Can I afford a price drop? What about MY principals?...and on and on.
Temper flareups seldom if ever work. I have learned from high up business people and my own wife who is a school principal, that the most powerful comeback on confrontational things like this is no body language, look straight in the eye, and (if you can)), say nothing. If you need to answer, make it simple, direct, and very quiet, never wavering from their eyes. "No." or "I'm not willing to do that." or "No, that's not negotiable." As they fidget and fuss and persist, which they will, you get even quieter and more still. They will give. It has never failed me. Subconsciously they see that you are in control of yourself and the situation, and no matter how hard they try, they will respect that, even if they throw zingers at you in order to feel that they have the upper hand in the end. If you hold your ground and remain quiet & unfazed, they will know that their attempt has been unsuccessful.
I have found many times if you use this technique, they will get it right off and tell you 'ok...just asking'. It always surprises me when that happens because I am expecting something quite different.
I could tell you war stories from the past just like yours that still can upset me a little if I dwell on them. I dare say we all have been there.
The above is not easy to do. I still struggle with it, but as I said, it seldom comes along anymore. It's like the martial art of Judo or better yet, akido, where you gently deflect the other persons force & momentum back onto them.
It feels good to talk about it though doesn't it?
I've turned down some fairly large jobs because of this, and it was tough to walk away with my pocket full of self doubt.
That was a great line.
jt8
A year from now you may wish you had started today. -- Karen Lamb
when someone starts to try and nickel and dime me i tell them i am not the Salvation Army and your not Santa Claus so lets leave it at that
i was reciently selling a guy a property and he hinted at a discount at which i told him if he wanted a discount go to the Dollar Store at which time he appologised
Check this out - Just found out from a mutual friend that my client will be getting $30-50 million settlement for the accident that put his son in a wheelchair (the son I am building this addition for)."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wow.... that's a settlement ?
not an award ? hmmmmmm Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
He was sideswiped by a diesel semi who's driver had been drinking - and ended up semi-comatose, maybe for the rest of his life."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Sounds to me like the guy shouldn't oughta be sucha cheapskate about his son's accomodations then...Try pulling his guilt strings a little..."Don't you wan't the best for Jr? It's the least you can do for him..."
And of course that may justifiably color the perception of your clients behaviour, but it shouldn't alter yours.
(sorry if that sounds preachy, it's just a general observation and not specifically directed at you)
Maybe he is mad about the thing that happened to his son and he needs to win at something to feel better.
He could be the type that is mad at his son for getting injured. Yes there are that type out there.
He's just one guy at the front of your thoughts right now.
There are countless others who are peaches you just can't think of right now.
If you work with him through this it will pay off down the road.
For me it's helpful to think of people like his as being socially handicapped.
If you were dealing with someone in a wheelchair you wouldn't expect them to get up and walk.
Same deal, it's just not as obvious.
Hope it works out for you, but I'd be paranoid about the guy. That something will bite you in the backside later on.
A worker is worth his wages. It might be ok to inquire about lowering a price, but if the worker doesn't want to lower it, then your option is to pay his price, get someone else, or don't get the work done. The fact that it sounds like he was just hammering away on trying to get you to lower your price means he is an oddball and oddballs are to be avoided.
jt8
A year from now you may wish you had started today. -- Karen Lamb
Some people are hard wired to negotiate EVERYTHING
It's nothing personal.
They have to try, and if they fail, they're okay, no problem.
But it bothers them if they don't at least try to talk you down.
When grandma died, the funeral home gave my aunt the price for their services and my aunt talked them down.
It's just the way she is and so are a lot of other people
sometimes i think the best way to execute a project is to mark up the cost by however much money it takes to ship the customer off to an alternate universe until you are finished...
then have them wire payment in full before you agree to bring them back
I think you were justified in speaking up- the subs work for you- that line does not need to become blurred.
lot of good advice on how to deal with the guy in previous posts
only thing I might add is bury the guy in communication- speak with him once a day about the job.
No Tag
"bury the guy in communication" I like that! Time well spent.
Thanks to all for sharing your insights. In this case I wasn't really looking for advice or suggestions, just venting. But I'm sure some of the stuff posted here will do me some good!
I just basically don't put up with as much bu!!$#!+ as I used to. People want to be abusive to me, I hold the mirror up so they can see and feel the effects of their behavior too. They usually don't like it much.
In the end, he can get pi$$ed off, not pay me, hold up my money, fight me in court, etc., etc. But he knows I will not back away from fighting for what's mine. And I will not walk away regretting that I just took it.
I let him have it with both barrels, because he raised his voice to me, and he was trying to intimidate me (or my sub) into giving work away. I mean my tilesetter left, and when he came back an hour later, he was still shaking.
Me, I felt calm afterwards. Didn't even feel all that angry, like I usually do with this guy. I said what I felt, got it off my chest, and moved on. Yeah, I used a few choice descriptive terms I generally prefer to avoid, but overall I think it may have helped him get the point - along with my tone of voice.
And I do talk with him every day. Have since the project started. For weeks now he's been crying that he wants tile wainscote but doesn't want to pay for it. Oh well, I let him cry and move on. Believe me, the guy has money. This job is for his handicapped son, and is being paid out of a several million dollar settlement, according to a friend of the h.o.'s. He just wants to pile the money in his bedroom and j@ck off with it, instead of paying what's due for the work he ordered.
So it was no surprise when I caught him in the other room talking to my tile guy - I had a good idea what was going on.
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 12/24/2008 8:17 pm by Huck
>>>For weeks now he's been crying that he wants tile wainscote but doesn't want to pay for it.That's just plain weird, or obsessive, maybe both.I've been following this project with interest and I believe this is at least the second time (i.e. the door issue) he's tried to get you to work for free. I'd say he's a slow learner too.All the best,Scott.
Huck,
With as much advice as you got, I don't think any of us believe that we would've handled the guy any better than you did.
As my inlaws would say "you did a well job".Relax and have a great Christmas. Jerry
i had a guy want to supply his own decking matl last year to save my markup
this spring he shows me that half the board ends are delaminating so i gave him the good news , seeing as he supplied the material he was responsible for the quality
guess what he got it from home depot $ 9ooo and told me how he saved $3000 on my price by supplying his own material , so i got the last laugh
by the way the material supplier to Home Depot went bankrupt so warrenty is toilet paper
i was going to use Trex and he felt the price was crazy , i think somebody above was watching out for me !
i find whenever the customer supplies their own material they almost always screw up and its neat when i tell them i need the item next & its 25 miles to town and job i T&M ,,, Yahoo
learned long ago the guys who have been in business a log time know everway a rat can run and screw it with out breaking a sweat !!!!
Sign in the back room of a shoe store: "IF YOU SOLD THE CUSTOMER WHAT HE WANTS, YOU HAVEN'T SOLD HIM ANYTHING!"
I think this is a mentality that some folks have. They have to get just a little more all the time. The game is more important than the product.
Maybe it is ego and the people who do this can't help it. When you deal with them, maybe you just have to accept it as part of the package.
This is, alas, a common situation ... especially for small contractors that deal with the general public.
How do you deal with it? First, by avoiding it. That is, have a contract .... preferably a simple one. "I will remodel the front room for $X. Here is what you told me you want me to do, and I shall do just that." After then, how you do it is your problem.
The key is having that contract. The subs can quote all they want, the guy can find all the handyment he wants ... but you and he have already agreed that YOU will do the work, for an agreed price. He wants out of the contract? You have no obligation to accomodate him. He wants to 'fire' you? OK, give him the bill, and leave.
Most important ... you have no obligation to re-open the contract negotiations. He wants you to use a different tile? Get him to sign a change order, defining any credit you want to give for his supplying the materials ... and spelling out that he's on the hook for any shortages, delays, errors, etc.
I probably wouldn't hurt to keep a running (daily) tally of your investment - time, materials, and expenses - in a job. If, at some point, he decides to fire you, or you decide to fire him ... you can draw up a bill right then. Do it right, and it will cost him more to replace you.
Never be afraid to fire a customer.
good stuff in that post, thanks for that. I have a good contract, and it specifies I build what's drawn on the plans. He keeps wanting more, and me to pay for it. Then he says "and don't give me that barely makin it ####, I know you're making good money", I'm like WTF? What I make is no one's darned business, so I won't even discuss that, and when did I ever say anything even remotely like that? All I said is I've eaten a lot of stuff not on the plans, but if you want to add tile, you pay for it. Emphatically. He said Man, are you Irish? Hahahaha. What an a$$wipe."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
There's no point arguing with a fool ... he won't understand, and others might get the two of you confused.
What I do, to help me keep things in perspective ... I look at their home vs. my home ... their car vs. my car ... and I ask myself: Who needs to cut who some slack? When THEY start driving 18 yr old trucks and living in 400 sq ft rentals, than maybe I'll see the need to cut them some slack!
Otherwise, it's: We agreed on the work and the price. I'm not running a charity. You want more, it will cost more. Period.
With new customers, I also quote a bit high. If the job goes well, I am happy to discount the final bill. If they're "high maintenance," they pay full freight- and my next quote will be even higher.
If someone complains that I'm not the cheapest guy around, I ask them why they're driving a Lexus instead of a Chevy. Well, I say, the same applies - you want the best, you get to pay for it. Since they generally call me only after several hapless handy-sorts have mucked things up even worse, I know they've already learned that lesson.
Tell him you are Irish, and tell him it's a good thing you aren't Scottish or he wouldn't have gotten anything free at all, and tell the blowhard that you didn't know he was so impoverished that he needed construction wellfare.
Contractors should never be in a situation where their money is in the homeowners pocket.
Well, there are some decent ideas in all of these so far.
But, I'd like to suggest another approach.
Get in his shoes. Look at it from his point of view. I don't mean as an HO or the guy paying.
I mean as a "Deal Do-er." That's what these kind of guys are. They do "deals." He's doing a "deal" with you. That's his sport.
Then quickly cut to the chase when he counters with his "deal." But you gotta be prepared when putting together your bid.
Your bid should consist of all items being necessary to do the job correctly, on time, etc. You know that. No one else does. He most certainly does not.
Seperate these costs into three piles: Direct costs (materials, labor, etc.), Indirect costs (your insurance, taxes, etc.), and your Profit (described by whatever you want). Know these three numbers when you present your first bid.
Now, when he comes on with his "counter" (however it may be presented or spoken, it's a counter), simply cut to the chase and say,
"Hey, Joe. I'm getting $300 bucks outta this deal. The rest is direct and indirect costs that don't go away by talking about them. It's gonna take three days dealing with suppliers, inspectors, permiters, accountants, etc., not to mention being on the job, to get earn that $300. If you wanna save some bucks, for $200 and one day, I'll show YOU how to do it. YOU provide all materials, labor and YOU assume all risks. Simply call me when you got everything together - on site."
WHen all I did was Stairs and Rails I installed for three different shops.
One shop had the kind of customers that no matter what, they always wanted to know if I would install the next job directly for them and cut out the middle man.
I would always give them a price too.
My price?
$130 K !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why? Because that shop provided me with around $65K a year gross worth of work.
If I was gonna cut them out? They were surely gonna cut me off. And since it took me two years to get in with them?
I was gonna need two years to find another contract like it and I needed that $65K a year so......................................it had to come from somewhere.
Most builders/contractors got the point. SOme were just dirtbags.
Sounds like your customer is a dirtbag AND you have nothing to gain except a bad reputation because he sounds like the kind of A$$monkey who will badmouth you everywhere he can.
I'm in a similar crappy situ.
I waived all my profit on a 50K job because the client is a big client of another client who gives me a lot of money.
The guy had the guall to come back and want $4K more. (so basically take money out of my pocket to pay the subs for the honor of working on his house)
He gave me written approval to move forward after sending him a detailed proposal so I am completely within my rights, but he gives my good client millions of dollars of work annually so my other client is in the middle and trying to make it work out.
I needed that money for end of year bills. Now I am looking to do work in jan and feb to pay for this prick who proceeded to spend 20+K on tv's pool tables, video games, furniture, etc after I got done.
I knew this guy was no good when I started but again, needed the work and he was pushing me to move forward.
man, that bites! It will come back on these people, in the bigger scheme. Meanwhile, hope you get back on your feet, and have better customers in the coming year. - Huck"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Thanks Huck.
had a good day today.
year is starting out right!!!!
Landed 2 good jobs today.
Thanks
Jeff
Where in Southeast PA are you?
Have any use for Bolt thru scaffold brackets?
Cleaning out my garage.
Hey Robert
I am in West Chester/Chadds Ford area.
Since I dont know what a bolt thru scaffold bracket is, I recon I dont need em.
Dont do scaffold work anyway. A buddy of mine is a commercial scaffolding and rigging guy but I am all residential and the highest we run scaffold is the drywall guys or stucco guys and all that is contracted.
thanks
Jeff
>>I am in West Chester/Chadds Ford area.<<Hi Jeff, I spent a couple years in the Unionville area. Beautiful country.Steve
Re Unionville area.
I have one child at Unionville High School.
We like the area. I grew up in Bucks County in farm country (actually on a farm) and this area is quite similar.
We rented a place on former King Ranch property. The area had deed restrictions of fifty acre minimums, and if I recall correctly, no building in line of sight of of another house. Kept it beautiful, but ultimately out of our league in terms of buying. Lots of old money there.Bucks is beautiful too. Is it still rural? I've been out of that area for over 15 years.Steve
Unionville is still pretty bucolic. Still the old money. Real built up around Oxford and southwest of unionville along route 1. Delaware buyers were pushed out of New Castle County due to a building moratorium so the lower Pa new construction market appeared.
Bucks Co has had huge construction over the last 10 years. My family farm was one of the later ones to go the way of development. (we preserved 60 of the 100 acres as permanent open space/ag lands and built on all the clay so that was good)
When I grew up in Plumsteadville, there was no traffic light till you got into the middle of Doylestown 10 miles away. Now there are several in town and quite a few between there and middle of Doylestown.
I vacation up in the 1000 Islands (have a cabin there) and enjoy getting back to a place where it is rural or rural.
Hey neighbor- I'm in Glen Mills /Concordville. Do most of my work Exton to Wilmington, Oxford to Swarthmore- residential landscaping and stonework. I'm sure we passed at a WawaSteve
Hey Steve:
Probably
I am right behind the corner of 202 and 1.
Work out of my home but run a small homebuilding and contracting company.
I'll go wherever the client is.
South Jersey, New Castle County, Wilmington, Main Line, Collegeville, Coatesville, Parkesburg, Malvern, West Chester, etc.
I am guessing we have crossed. What is your business name.
I trade under Morrison Homes, LLC.
[email protected]
Jeff- I'm just off Smithbridge, by the schools. I'm Handlebar Landscaping. And no, I don't ride a bike.Steve
Send me your email
p.s. Green side up!!
I grew up on a sod farm in North Central Bucks Co so I gotta chuckle when I see that.
Jeff in PA
Did you go to CB East or CB West? I graduated from Q-town in '78.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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East 83
My older sister was east 78
It's a small world after all.
I lived outside of Trumbaursville back then..small world indeed..Ran track in 75-78 against youse guys..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I grew up in Plumsteadville.
(booming metropolis as you propably remember)
Funny.
Passed thru on our way to jersey friday nights..Lol.
Yeah, that and Ottsville, were quiet lil hamlets over there on 611.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Yep.
Used to go to the Dublin Diner saturday mornings for breakfast as the local places weren't as good but it was a nice part of the world to grow up in.
What took you to Ky?
It's a LONG story...I went to Western NC in 94 and came up here in 03 followed my wife's daughter when she moved here..(with my wife I mean..LOL), then she (my stepdaughter) moved BACK to NC and we stayed.
drop me an email..my cousin lives in West Chester and my mom is in a home in Paoli..I'll be up again one of these days.
SpheramidATAOLDOTCOM.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.