Last winter we did a bath remodel. Nice job. Small bath but nice tile, complete gut etc. We also replaced the water heater, did some repairs, did some decorative drywall on a ceiling and…………a Pergo floor in the dining room.
We subbed the floor. Good sub. Don’t use a lot of subs but use this one on floor work and they have been great. All goes well. Great job. Except……..the floor. Slab house with hooved slab in the middle and the installer lays over it. Sub says its within tolerance, client say it looks bad.
We go through the Pergo process. Takes 3 weeks to get someone there and then 2 more to get the report. The report doesn’t match the floor at all! So we ask for another inspection. Takes 3 weeks. 2 more to get the report. Report says installer screwed up. No one agrees but the flooring company ponies up and refunds the entire cost, says let us know when you get ready to lay what you want and we will come in the day before to remove that floor so you won’t be without one. (told you they were ok)
During the whole process we call weekly to give an update and re-assure the client that we had not forgotten them, let them beat us up and at times. try to sooth it as we could. Even sent restraunt certificates a couple of times. We get the floor done and they immediately fire us from an up and coming job. We refund the deposit with a letter and an offer to do some insulation work in the attic they were thinking about for free as a gesture. In the letter I explain we couldn’t work on the floor as we are not certified and it would have voided the warranty, we are sorry etc. etc. They call say thanks but no thanks but appreciate the letter.
A month goes by and we get a call. They talked with 3 floor companies and 2 of them said we were not at fault and that is just the way it works. The floor companies said they were impressed that we stayed in touch etc. That the floor company might have been at fault but we were not. So they are sorry and could we please re-book the bath remodel (number 2) work? Sure, glad to. Chat, chat chat, soothe soothe etc.
Across the street from their daughters house we do a multi task job including a new drywall ceiling. We do well at everything except we hose the ceiling (missed a few mud spots and paint work sucked). We go back in, at the same time we are doing bath #2, and fix it. I find out the guy who did the ceiling job agreed on the side to provided cabinets for them, took the deposit and never delivered. I deal with him and send my son in to fix the ceiling and do some freebie stuff to make it somewhat better.
Bath #2 meanwhile goes well and they are happy. I mean really happy! Happy, happy, happy!!! They book some door work, deck work etc. 2 weeks later they call and want to cancel. The talked with the ceiling couple and said “we understand you are not as honest as we thought”. I tell them that I would like to explain my side if possible. “No need to, we want to cancel”. Send back the deposit and move on. Scramble for work as they canceled only 2 weeks out. Manage to fill it.
Fast forward 2 months to last Friday. Sitting in the waiting room at physical therapy (latest try to fix shoulder without surgery) and guess who walks in? The couple with the floor issue and 2 bathrooms. I say hi, chat a moment and return to my magazine. She walks up close and says “I wanted you to know we found out that things weren’t exactly as we were first told. I want to apologize and hope you will forgive us for our mistake. We have a kitchen we would like to remodel if you would be interested.” I accepted the apology.
On one hand I can used the work and they like our work. And I could book it with the understanding (in writing) that they pay for the cabinets up front and all special order stuff so if it gets canceled I am not out anything. On the other hand I am a planner. And I hate jumping through hoops to recover when I get dumped. What do you all think? DanT
Replies
From what you say, I'd do it. Unless you still have a bad taste in your mouth from wahat happened before, or you are starting to imagine seeing some midair collisions and near misses on your radar.
I'd do it.
But
Sounds like they fly off the handle a bit. Is it hubby or wife? I would get a big deposit. Enough for 2 weeks of work. Plus the special orders. And nail down the specs tight.
Can you write a non cancelable contract? Is that called a Pay or Take contract?
What about a T&M deal?
Definately, get your out clause in there. They pay, you go away
Dan, you are a much better businessman than I.
By now I would have a target imprinted on those two's faces.
That's just too pycho-goofy for this simple mind.
Best of luck.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Sometimes you have to back up and take the entertainment value and apply it to the strees account.I don't know if I could do more for them or not
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
just my opinion. But I would start to factor in some sort of remuneration for your time and energy. Granted, they keep coming back and apologizing but it seems to be a habit for them and you keep giving them freebies.
Some people live their lives like a rollercoaster. I'm like you. I'm a planner so I don't have rollercoaster rides. It might be just one of them that's doing this.
Edited 11/5/2007 8:03 pm ET by popawheelie
I consider it a weakness when we subcomb to our emotions in business. I admire your composure and tact.
You're a better man than I.
Dan,
I have a friend that does this all the time. back and forth - it's on, it's off. she also has a habit of criticizing everything that anyone does for her - except when it's done for free. I've known her for years and finally got to the point that when she said she was getting ready to do some work, I just said I was too busy. Could have gotten a kitchen job and some other work out of it, but it's not worth it.
My time and my efforts are seemingly meaningless in normal circumstances. Even for a friend, I am not going to bend over backwards and forwards and get kicked in the butt. I wouldn't do it for an ordinary client either. You seem to have gone out of your way for these customers, repeatedly. I know you want to make things right for the mistakes, but when is enough enough?
I wouldn't do it. The whole situation just gives me a bad feeling.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Cash, Before Delivery ..unless your a FOOL
they way i read it...
you have not been wrong... yet made things right....jumped thru hoops... and did good work... they can't get anyone else they like or trust as much as you so they come back... wow...
one... you'd think they'd be ashamed to even come back knowing you were never wrong...
Two,, congrats to them for being big enough to come back and offer the olive branch of more work
three... man these people sound like nut jobs... if it's the wife i bet the husband hates to come home not knowing what he did wrong "this time" but make'n up might be fun....
four... their money is good you now know what to expect... they have screwed your planning but they haven't not paid for work done...
I think by come'n back to you they are doing the best they can do... take the job keep doing good work and I'd guess there is more to come... chances are these are the exact people who will refer you a ton of work... seems they talk to alot of people... and since they have been wrong both times they'll be on your side for awhile...
you're a good man
p
It is the wife. I worked with her 20 years ago at the prison. She was a battle ax there too. I never thought I would get any work from her and we got the first bath. She wants you to do anything you see that may not be right, fix it. And they pay for it no questions asked. Complimentory too.
She even said at the PT office that we should use them as a reference. And I agree to being gun shy but they do pay, and they like our work. It is just these outside factors. I feel sorry for the husband. He is always the one that has to call and she is always the one that apologizes and make amends. Weird.
I am leaning toward calling them. But wanted to hear what everyones opinion is. You just can't see some of this stuff when you are too close to it. DanT
PS. None of you guys even mentioned that fact I admitted we hosed the ceiling job. Man I thought I would hear about that, either that we hosed it or that I admitted it since you rarely see that here lol. :-) DanT
Client personality aside, do you want the job? Do you need the job? Dont need to take every job that comes along. If you want or need the job, then take it. BUT............
It seems that you have given a bunch of freebies, bent over backwards, and gone the extra mile for these people. Thats fine, but this all costs. So you need to be compensated for this, I would adjust my bid ( or T&M rate) to reflect this. I would also suggest requiring a NON-REFUNDABLE deposit. That way if they want to change their minds (again), thats fine, but once again you are being compensated for it.
Now, do as I say, not as I do. Good luck with these people.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Dan, my hats are off to you. I like the way you go above and beyond in the stressful times. I'd take the work because they are a known entity. They know you, you know them, everyone is comfortable. I would add in an escape clause that covered your profit in the case that they flake out on you. You could tell them that you learned a lesson and now you cover yourself a little better. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
PS. None of you guys even mentioned that fact I admitted we hosed the ceiling job. Man I thought I would hear about that, either that we hosed it or that I admitted it since you rarely see that here lol. :-) DanT
No worries Dan... I'm with ya. I phuck up all the time. It's the way I fix it that keeps me busy. ;)View Image
I agree. Anyone that actually works out there in the field mucks something up on a regular basis. I find new and unusual ways to muck things up.My old buddy Forrest used to laugh when he was recycling an old screwup because he ffed it up so long ago he'd forgotten. We all screw things up....it's the fix that separates the men from the boys. Dan sounds like he mans up. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Dan - There's an old saying,
"Everyone makes mistakes, the difference is a good carpenter fixes his."
You just might be the best, you fix what wasn't your mistake! buic
I lost track.....that's HOW MANY times they refused to take you at your word or called you a liar or a crook? Are you making any money at all with them after all the freebies?
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Sounds like half the clients we work for.
What was the question?
[email protected]
and fast approaching 3/4 !carpenter in transition
The apology finally comes when you meet by chance, not as a conscious effort from them to set things right in a timely manner. That's the clinker in this deal for me. It means that they haven't changed and may pull the same act again.
Hadn't thought of it in that manner. Thanks. DanT
Hadn't thought of it in that manner. Thanks. DanT
As Piffen points out, they have set a pattern, as have you.
You act responsibly at all times and are responsive to problems.
They act immaturely and only react fearfully to gossip from outside sources.
Rather than understanding that you are a mature business person, they think that your quick reponse to fixing problems and giving them freebies is an indication that they can manipulate you as they wish.
Mature friendly people, myself included, are bound to find ourselves dealing with immature selfish people all through life, simply because we present a predictable, easy target for their egoist abuse of real friendship and responsible behavior.
In fact they probably look down on us in a predatory manner, or at least condescendingly.
You've taken the high road all along. I respectfully suggest that you continue to do so. But knowing them as you do, I'd follow the suggestions from others that you, in effect, narrow your focus with them. Limit the relationship to a very professional approach, using as many financial safeguards and added incentives as possible.
If they react well to the suggestion of a better defined, more professional relationship than in the past, I'd go ahead with their work, adding something for past aggravation and a bit more to reward yourself for being a true professional, just as they should have all along.
They have set the pattern.
They WILL do this again.So he has to assess how he will deal with agravation.His call should be like Jeff stated to protect himself. Always be out front of them with non-refundable deposits.
The open question then is that when they realize that by cancelling, they will only hurt themselves, how nasty will they turn?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
10% pain in the buttt adjustment. Do the work, cash the check.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Aint nothing but a thing, like a chicken wing. They're big enough to admit it and make it right when they are wrong just like you. It's a no brainer.
PS I have my last physical therapy on my shoulder Friday. It's coming along pretty good. Them fricking ribs still hurt though. Not a lot but I can feel them when I stretch too mutch.
.
"I tell you, We are here on earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut jr.
My sternum and the broken rib next to it towards the bottom of the rib cage still hurt when I sneeze, a year and a half later. I think they call that O-L-D! Glad yours is going well. My shoulder so far seems the same but again I want to avoide the knife it possible. DanT
did U price the kitchen for them yet?
if not ... price it strong.
add in the PITA factor ... on top of pricing it strong.
remember my "asked for chrome so we installed chrome ... but she really wanted porcelain" lady? I hate her ... will never work for her again ... but ... am glad I priced her so high.
In the end ... I still made a decent buck. Hate her ... but her checks cleared.
I actually would work for her again ... 'cept next time I'm sure she'd not accept my even higher rates. I'll work for/with anyone ... they just pay for their problems upfront.
which ... brings up my next condition ... I'd get all materials up front ... plus.
go back happy as could be ... have a high price with a big buy in.
They accept ... yer golden.
they decline ... nothing lost.
they don't seem "mean" ... just misguided.
and start off pricing if for close to perfection levels of finish at each phase. The only thing they're not gonna complain about is near perfection ... so start there.
watch ... it'll end up being the smoothest job of the year!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My first thought was to avoid it......then figgured the other factors did help pull it back toward the positive side again.
Like the others though.......large non refundable deposit and add a good chunk of aggro money into it.
I would also be telling her that I be getting tired of her losing it every time she gets the wrong end of a story.
I did a job for a woman near home. Seemed OK, agreed to let me work it into my very busy workload as I could etc............once I started work she kicked it into high gear. "when you gonna do this?"...."when this gonna happen?"...."has this been ordered yet?"
The stress wasnt worth it. I finished and got paid right off, but I wont ever work for her again. Bumped into her at a yard sale on Saturday. She friendly as can be............I said howdy and split. Dont want to get asked about anything.People talk about insanity like its a bad thing........
We lost about 150,000 per year when Robbi quit her job when you get all the perks figured in. This is the first time in several years Ive seen her happy. She was miserable and she was being cheated out of income. Most of the problems were principles.
No money but happy because the loss of the income is small compared to the BS on her mind. ... I know we have to replace that income . You cant work for people around here and make that kind of money. Residential contractors dont make close to that here in a town of 8 thousand people.
Im planning on stepping up flipping and I think you should look at other things as well. It takes a little bit of everything in small towns .
If you were loaded up with work this would be a no brainer and we would not even have heard about it.
Tim
"they don't seem "mean" ... just misguided."
I think that is true. And it is the thing that keeps me considering it. That and I would love to book this in January lol. DanT
And BTW, I dont get somthing .
You know how to buy , and you are tooled . You got a fancy truck that will carry it and a shop to hold it . You dont like rentals evidently all that well or you would have a bunch. Every time the subject comes up you want to sell them seems like .
Why dont you flip along with your current business ? Thats my main question Ive had since Ive met you. You have bought some and held them then sold which is smart but you dont return to those crops often enough to water the thought. You could double your work load from that alone where you could pick and choose what you did .
You mentioned you would like to schedule these folks for January. But thats when the goverment and banks dump their stuff . Has always been the season for it . That lasts though March , just right for spring sales.
Tim
My local market is soft. Little is moving and there is 30-50 repos in the paper weekly so even the big flippers are running for cover.
I need a certain level of cash flow on a regular basis to keep my business going. A flip doesn't provide that. You buy it, you fix it, you wait............until it sells. If it sells in a month or two fine, if not I am slowly screwed. Doing one on occasion is not a problem which I have done.
Finding time to look is another issue. My business is active enough now that I run all day keeping up with it.
Rentals were fine when I had my wife for the day to day. She was great at it and I am not. Don't mind the fix, occasional collection, rehab and purchase. But I am not a day to day deal with the tennants guy. Never was.
All in all it is not much different than me wondering why you don't buy a bigger truck and hire a crew. We are all just different in how we do things. But we have both said all this before. DanT
Tim never did buy that old jail, did he?
"Tim never did buy that old jail, did he?"
No he didnt . The city owns it .
Tim
Did they buy it back or doesn't want to sell?
That was an interesting place.
Dont want to sell it .
They aint dumb.
Tim
And the verdict is...........thought a lot about it. Weighed it out for days. Called them today and made an appointment right after the new year to look it over and quote it. They thanked me again for another chance and said they were really glad to hear my voice.
I have always made good money with them. And during the work they are great to work with. Pay on time and don't squawk about the bill at all. But then they always find a reason to be mad after the fact but before the next job.
So......we will quote the work with a 10% premium. We will get enough deposit to cover all materials and some office time. We will put in the agreement that anything short of a month notice will have severe financial penalties and no deposit money will be returned no matter what. If they balk, we walk.
I really appreciate all the feedback on this one. Amazing when you get everyones thoughts together how many things you didn't think of. Thank you again for helping me on this one. I would pay each of you something but a guy the other day said none of you really knew what you were talking about and I shouldn't do business with any of you. Oh wait, that was my client. Never mind. :-) DanT
and again ...
Quit Stealing MY Clients!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Damn.......
I thought you wanted that job for January? You can sign a job and start in the same month? Sounds fast to me. What with special orders and such.
Can you sign them in November for January start? That sounds like the time frame I usually hear. I'd be worried they find someone else since they are hot right now
You probably have a good read on em
I wanted them in Januay. The want to talk in January. I can't control all factors unfortunately. I can't do a kitchen in less than 6 weeks lead time and usually 8-10. Especially after the holiday plant shut downs. DanT
" That and I would love to book this in January lol. "
then there U have it!
price it solid and schedule it on your prefered terms.
get a healthy nonrefundable deposit ... a "scheduling deposit" ... 'cause yer already booked solid till July, but seeing as how they're already clients ... and now that you've both worked thru to this conclusion ... etc etc etc ...
then ... thry hit ... great.
they pass ... oh well.
they hit ... then walk again.
a little money for yer troubles ...
I don't care what Don says ... we ARE in this for the money!
like Dad says ... "here to make money, not to make friends"
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
DanT-- Hudson Valley Carpenter must have a sharp eye----( bet he is a great finish carpenter)
he mentioned something--so i went back and re-read your first post.
Notice---they ONLY apologize--when they want something.- BOTH times-the apology ONLY comes-when they want something more from you.-------- they DON"T call up and apolgize-and leave it at that---and then later ask for more work----------they DO decide they want more work--call you up,apoligize and then ask for more work.
subtle but key differrence.
my first suggestion would be to politely arrange to be so busy that you can't get to their project for a long,long,long time--------------
If circumstances prevent THAT---well at least now you know what you are dealing with and can take steps to cover your rear
but--once again---the fact that they don't apologize because they realize they were wrong---but rather seem to apologize ONLY as a tool to manipulate you into more work----would bother me.
stephen
People rarely change. They probably won't. I have had clients come back to me for more work after we both swore we would never work together again (they came back because they liked our work). I tried everything to make them say no. I charged for the estimate, I asked for a 50% deposit, 40% upon delivery of materials and 10% upon completion. I priced the job high enough to scare them off. They weren't scared. I got the job, I got paid. They were happy, I was happy.
You might as well do the job. Just make it worth your while.
Would you rather deal with the devil you know or the devil you don't know.
Chris Calhoun
Blackstone Builders
Don't forget we're not in this just for the money. Forget the BS. They made a mistake and apologized. The question is do you think you will enjoy this job?
I had a customer going through a divorce that needed her new place painted in a hurry before she moved in. She owed me some answers about some details of the job and the colors. She had also agreed to send me a deposit. I had to re-arrange my schedule to accommodate her (which I only did because I had worked for her before).
On the previous job, she had given me a little bit of grief, but I had also made a small mistake. My mistake might have cost her $50.00, but she asked me to re-paint an entire room instead because she didn't like her original color choice after all. In her mind, it was an even swap. Of course, it wasn't, but my goal was to smooth things over and I agreed.
On the new job, because of the turmoil in her life, she didn't hold up her end of the deal even though I had called her repeatedly reminding her. The day before I was to start, I called her and told her I didn't want the job. I meant it, but she talked me back into it by providing me the details and promising to have someone meet me at the new place the next morning with a deposit.
When I showed up, the deposit was there and so I did the job. Everything worked out and I wondered afterwards if maybe I over-reacted. On the other hand, I might not have gotten the deposit if I had not threatened to quit.
I did not enjoy that job as much as others because of the tension that had been created, but I enjoyed it enough that I would do it again. Even for her.
So that's my story. What do you think yours will sound like after you work for them?
I would do it.
Like you have already said - they pay directly for cabinets and special order stuff.
Big, early deposits so there is never any cash out of your pocket.
Monitor their medications if at all possible.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"Monitor their medications if at all possible."
Good one! DanT
Since you will clarifying things in the agreement with these folks add something to make it clear that any additional work goes through you. They are not to direct your subs or employees. They are not to arrange side jobs with your subs or employees. Everything goes through you.
You said you dealt with the cabinet guy but it needs to be clear with your subs and employees that this is your customer, everything goes through you, period.
My first gut reaction is to walk away, thank them for the opportunity, but you just not feel that "we", being both parties, work well together.
On the other hand, if you have successfully worked with them in the past, and you're willing to put up with, what seems to be a minor amount of, BS. Then why not.
You already know what you will be up against going in so that's at least a step ahead of working with a new customer.
I won't say I would pad the budget, but I would certainly add in some extra admin time for dealing with them.
Personally I have no problem working with someone I know is going to be a needy or mildly difficult customer, as long as I know up front and I can be prepared to deal with them.
If your contract does not already have a clause in it regarding speacial order materials stating that portion of any down-payment is non-refundable I would add it to your standard provisions and put it in bold type in the body of this proposal
I didn't make it through the whole thread, but I just keep thinking.
As crazy as these people sound I wonder what they will say about you if you actually turn them down?!
Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
Sounds like too much drama in that household for me. I think your tolerance level for that kind of thing is much higher than mine would be. Let us know how it all shakes out.