Tight timelines and client involvement in a project I’m just finishing up is growing new gray hair every day!
I’m helping out a couple who needed last minute help for a rush commercial remodel job.
The clients hired unknown subs and is constantly frustrated with the poor work. That’s a no-brainer.
I should have known better, but when they wanted to paint it themselves I didn’t press them to let my normal painter handle it, so when the window for painting came instead of being taken care of quickly after hours so we’re ready to start the finish work, it became a painfully slow process.
Then the clients get bent out of shape with the amount of touch up painting that’s required after the finish work is done. Having to have a heart to heart to explain this is simply how construction professionals work is an hour out of my day that’s better spent on something constructive. We have a tape/texture guy on site the last day of finish work but I hear, “They’ve damaged the wall texture installing the countertop!” DIY painters have caused me nothing but trouble for the last 4 jobs it’s been allowed.
Then I offer to let the clients pick up the doors since I really haven’t had any extra time to track them down. You guessed it–a truck load of bargain doors shows up with jambs too narrow, many are screwed up returns, and a few 6-10 doors cut down to 6-8. Client changes the width of one to save money so we get to fir out the RO and fix the drywall–not much of a savings.
The client had ordered the cabinets for a breakroom kitchen and some bottom of the line junk shows up, with a poorly thought out design.
Bath vanity is too wide to pass an inspection, but client is convinced the inspector will allow it since it’s the same size as the existing vanity was. I suggest she touch base with the inspector before we commit to installing the counter top, sink, and mirror, but hear, “It’ll be okay.”
Trim was ordered by the client for 4 bathrooms and sent to a painter for a waterproof expoxy coating. Epoxy coated mdf shows up.
Once again, trying to be a nice guy and work with clients to allow them to be more involved in the process has been stressful for my guys and hasn’t saved the clients a dime. What drives me crazy the most are the results which reflect poorly on me as if I had made the poor decisions. I’m committed to two more projects this year with client hands-on assistance to some degree during construction and then that’s it. We’ll either do everything from start to finish or simply pass on it.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn’t rule the world.
Replies
BTDT, Bummer.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Are you the GC?
Why don't you just take control of the project?
And make it come out right.
"He said "Buck up baby, it's okay. The sunlight on the floor will always fall." ~ Sarah Harmer
<Why don't you just take control of the project?And make it come out right.>You must not be familiar with this type of client. They won't be told what to do or how to do it. They know best. They are going to do this their way, dang it! They are going to save five cents if it kills them and everyone else involved. There's just no reasoning with some people.
Well, just be sure to add your change orders to the price.
"He said "Buck up baby, it's okay. The sunlight on the floor will always fall." ~ Sarah Harmer
Are you the GC?
No, I've just been asked to help with carpentry, drywall and some painting. It's a matter of working with the clients who are the GC of the project, have high energy, are well intentioned, but they just don't work with the building trades enough to have any sort of feel for what's intailed.
I volunteered for it all, so I can't complain too much about anyone other than myself.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I volunteered for it all, so I can't complain too much about anyone other than myself.
It's that desire for a challenge biting you in the a$$ ;)
with a little trial and error, you can build up a stable of good subs, but you're always going to be dealing with screwy clients.
jt8
"Determine that the thing can and shall be done, and then we shall find the way." -- Abraham Lincoln
I feel for you, being nice to HO's that wanted to be involved did nothing but cause me more trouble in the long run. It happened just a few jobs ago and I regret everyday I spent on that job, it became miserable for both sides of the contract.
I hope you have handled any change orders as they appeared. Holding off until the end of the job with a handful of them is a recipe for disaster.
I hope this works out for you, I don't envy your position in this one.
Woods favorite carpenter
I hope you have handled any change orders as they appeared. Holding off until the end of the job with a handful of them is a recipe for disaster.
I take on these jobs as strictly T&M with no charge for change orders since often we're making it up as we go if everything is a mess or poorly thought out. When I take on a poorly planned rush job like this it's not all that difficult for us to figure out how to bring it all together, especially if we are in charge of a larger part or the whole pie, but having total control does make it easier.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'm the same way most of the time. If you can't do it the right way get out of the way so people who can do it can get it done. Most people are totally out of touch as to how difficult it is to build homes. And they won't acknowlege it so you are stuck doing it their way. It's frustrating because I've worked long and hard to figure this stuff out. Why would I want to go back to all the green mistakes I used to make? I'm not that good but I do allright. I make mistakes.
Edited 3/30/2008 1:08 am ET by popawheelie
The joy of helping someone out.
I did it once. Now if a client insists on doing the painting I tell them we will finish all of our work, get our final payment and then they can paint. Usually after one day we get the call to come and paint the project for more than we originally priced because they wanted to save money and eliminated the efficiency of letting pros handle it.
Bruce
I'm not sure of the extent of your involvement, but it's surely not full.
You're giving yourself gray hair. "Then I offer to let the clients pick up the doors since I really haven't had any extra time to track them down" That was your choice.
"but when they wanted to paint it themselves I didn't press them to let my normal painter handle it, so when the window for painting came instead of being taken care of quickly after hours so we're ready to start the finish work, it became a painfully slow process."
Again your choice, if they insist on painting, it's after we are completely done and gone. Doesn't matter what phase they want to do, the answer should be the same. After it no longer affects my schedule and my chance to make a profit.
On the positive side, gray hair is supposed to represent gained wisdom.
Yes, I did ask for trouble by allowing and some times encouraging the clients to run for materials and even purchase the doors. However, this has been a huge collaboration to simply get things done to meet a tight deadline for the occupancy permit. It's litterally been a case where the subs have a huddle once in a while to plan our day so we're not tripping on each other.
On what seemed like a daily basis we've had half of the following on site: hvac, plumbers, electricans, telecom, fire & alarm, fire sprinkler, handrail fabricators, tile setters, carpet layers, suspended ceiling, office furniture, computer networking, our drywall, painter, and myself.
In a way it has been fun.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I have had good luck with HO help and you must have also if you have so many of those projects this year.
My guess is that this time you have the wrong client.
There are some people that will do a better job than my subs and their involvement in the project will actually make my job easier because they will bring a better level of understanding to their decisions. They will also get a great sense of fulfillment from having helped build their house alongside a great team of tradesmen.
This is not everybody and it is not related in any way to wanting to save money. If someone asks if they can participate, I carefully evaluate their abilities, their available time and the possibility of problems with the schedule. Unless I get a positive read on all these factors, I politely decline their assistance.
They will also get a great sense of fulfillment from having helped build their house alongside a great team of tradesmen.
Helping clients build good memories of the process is a good reason to have them involved. However, I'd like it if they would treat it as a hobby rather than have us count on them for the entire activity. That way if they want to jump in and help while it's fun it works out great, but they don't hold up anyone.
I have a great client coming up who has good judgment and has been adding a lot to the front end of the project. Unfortunately, the shorter term projects don't allow enough time to get to know the clients before deciding how much they should be involved.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"Bath vanity is too wide to pass an inspection"..... I'm curious as to why a vanity's width would be an inspection issue.
Thanks,
Bruce
Crapper encroachment perhaps.
15 yds, personal foul.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yep, crapper encroachment.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
no 30"? But what if I WANT to rest my arm on the vanity!
jt8
"Determine that the thing can and shall be done, and then we shall find the way." -- Abraham Lincoln
You're big enough. Should be no problem.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Need something for the other elbow... the tub is too low.
jt8
"Determine that the thing can and shall be done, and then we shall find the way." -- Abraham Lincoln
There are a lot of ADA clearance issues that come into play when you go to commercial toilet rooms.Here's the links to the Illinois Accessibility Code which is based on the ADA. Idaho probably has something similar or has adopted the national law.http://www.cdb.state.il.us/forms/download/IAC/iac.pdfhttp://www.cdb.state.il.us/download/IAC/IAC-allfigures.pdfI would also guess that the vanity bought by IdahoDon's client does not allow for a front approach by a wheelchair either. Another accessibility violation.
Thanks for the links.
I'm on my third coffee bar for a pair like this. Really nice people but not enough experience to understand the business and scheduling and how to head off the inevitable problems that arise from the decisions they make.
I bill hourly and allow room in my schedule for the time I know it will actually take accounting for their contributions to the job. I'm paid for all the time I put in, including the time I spend sorting out situations they get us in.
Actually works very well for me as I am a one man band and between structural, finishing, cabinets and millwork, there isn't a hope in Hades I'll ever meet the target deadlines otherwise.
there isn't a hope in Hades I'll ever meet the target deadlines otherwise
Your jobs sound a lot like this one. These jobs pay quite well and I'm able to use many subs on short notice who are a little slow.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
U know what the issues are ...
and they will never understand.
actually ... somewhere deep in the recesses of their minds they will ...
but they'll never let themselves admit to understanding.
it's a lose / lose ... with both losers being you.
been there ... done that ... and dumb enough to probably do it again!
just put yer head down and work thru it.
they'll never see the light.
"why don't U just take control" ...
that one was funny!
I suggest ... Hey, go tackle that speeding car!
probably easier ... might hurt less.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I suggest ... Hey, go tackle that speeding car!
probably easier ... might hurt less.
*Chuckle*
....you really do understand.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'm sure that I've read at least six articles in various magazines that preach you can always save money by doing certain tasks yourself, and painting is always the first task that is mentioned. This DIY phenomemon (the perception that they are saving money, with no regard for the value of their time) is quite common.
If you view this situation as just another jobsite condition that we need to take into account when writing contracts and pricing work, it's much less stressful.
I am doing my second job for a customer who is just like your CUSStomer. I warned the GC at the outset:
"Get ALL the keys to the place - and don't let them in until the job is done. Get Job boxes, and lock up EVERYTHING - tools AND parts - no matter how small, every night."
The GC laughed, and walked away. That was then; now he, and his crew, are apologizing for not listening to me .... and these guys never apologize!
One of the problems is that these folks have no appreciation of the preparation necessary before you begin to show results. They have - literally - set clay tiles around the feet of ladders, while people were working on them! Small wonder the floor turned out all 'cattywumpus.'
Having customers work on the job will generally cost you money. I have become pretty good at giving them the horror storys and to expect being treated like a sub contractor for their part of the job.
Years ago had a customer we gave 1 week to paint the job. We packed everything up and gave it to them clean for their week. They decided to do faux finishes... they had no clue what they were in for, after a few days they gave up and went on an emergency vacation. We came back to a paint job not 10% done(much was still not even primed) and started up work like they were done. The additional work they had to do was incredible painting around toilets, door knobs, mirrors, carpet, ligt fixtures... you get the picture. We probably would have cut them some slack but the fact they went on vacation really pushed my buttons.
I've actually built on this principle, and removed any desire by the customer to 'help' in the process. For example, when they complain about the cost of a service change, I offer a $100 discount if they drive the ground rod. I provide the rod, driver, and ladder. The experience persuades them that there is real skill and effort involved ... that it's more than simply slapping $200 worth of panel and breakers on the wall. After that experience, I don't have any more problems.
Speaking of painting...I had a client ask me last week if our firm would prep the exterior of her house so she could spray it herself. I explained that the prep was the hardest part and that we wouldn't be willing to do that. I asked again if she wanted us to prep and paint it but she insisted that she was going to do the spraying. Good luck finding someone to prep it... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Did she even bother to get a number from you on doing the paint? prep and finishjt8
"Determine that the thing can and shall be done, and then we shall find the way." -- Abraham Lincoln
No, we tried twice to get her to listen to a full offer. We were there primarily for a deck that was priced at about 4k. We tagged another 1k on because of the paint conversation. We won't be offering a price for the prep though because that could only lead to arguments when some of the paint doesn't stick or it gets through the taping and prepping. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well that is her foolishness. When someone is offering a service on something that you need to get done, you ALWAYS get their price. Even if you're 99% sure you're going to do it yourself, it is always worth getting the price. That 'sticker shock' might not seem so bad after you've figured how much in materials and time it is going to cost you to do it yourself.
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
In my previous job, we often had clients wanting to do this or that. We never subbed out painting, so clients almost always painted themselves.
I only had one client who completed everything on 'their end' properly and on time. They barely got started, and then hired a handy-man to finish it off before we showed up. ;-)
I feel for you. If there is a lesson, what do you think it is?
Sometimes it's easy to forget why we're on a project that doesn't fit our normal working style. I enjoy helping people and when these nice folks were really glad to have me there it's worth a few headaches to help them out. The toothpaste was already out of the tube when I showed up, so there was no starting from scratch with a better plan and no time to waste.
In this case I don't know that there's an easy answer other than to have demanded more control up front, at which time I'd be shown the door, so that wouldn't have helped them nor myself. No, this has been more of a relationship/communication skills challenge to work with all the personalities and keep everyone rowing the boat in the same direction. It's a shame I didn't have a young carp along to sit in on all the discussions that took place. It would be like a crash course on how to make seemingly impossible things work.
It was like a class in knowing how hard to push, who to push, who to leave alone, who to assist, how to ask questions, how to stand firm (clients setting work schedules for my subs without me being in the loop), and a few other how-to's.
For me it's easy to focus on items that are out of place, or situations that are not quite right, but in the grand scheme the process worked because of the individuals going an extra step to help out the other subs. Many of the guys never interact because their portion of the job is scheduled to not overlap others. Like in a difficult remodel, it's good to have at least a few days when most of the subs are on site--it's human nature to talk between themselves and solve problems that otherwise would pop up later as rework.
I'm in a better mood today because I won a bet with the plumber that we could reroute a pex line in a bath wall without opening up any of the finished walls. I cut out a hole for a recessed paper towel holder only to see a water line that we all missed earlier before the walls were rocked. The Fein MM, a chisel, spade bit on long extension and a few minutes of careful measurement and we had just enough room to bend here, twist there, cut 1-3/4" from that fitting, add an elbow there, a few gymnastics and tada it worked. New construction plumber will know better to bet a remodeler next time! *chuckle*
All in all, it was difficult and sometimes frustrating. If it were easy everyone with a pickup truck and skillsaw would do it.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"New construction plumber will know better to bet a remodeler next time! *chuckle*"
Hah! You got that right!That was really great Don. It was like a master class in running a renovation job.There are always mitigating circumstances and different personalities on a job to one degree or another, but in renovation it's usually a little more intense because you're dealing with old houses, retrofits, and having the customers live under the same roof where you are tearing things apart. Subconsciously you're the invader.
I have found many times the unsung heroes (beside yourself of course) in a successful reno job are good subs.I usually don't have that much a problem with the client being involved, but I make it very clear to them that all deadlines must be met just like I would do with a sub, and any last minute changes costing me time or undue labor would be considered a change order and treated as such. Do it with a smile on your face and an attitude of, "I know you understand because I can see that you both are very intelligent people, and obviously you understand good sound business practices."...even if they aren't. I knew all those acting classes would pay off one day. Thanks for the post.
" Do it with a smail on your face" It's tuff love. This is the way it is. this is the way it's done. I think everybody has problems conveying that idea and smiling at the same time.
But if they get with the program they will have a sense of accomplishment at the end and isn't that what they are really after?
Edited 4/1/2008 5:08 pm ET by popawheelie
Right. Next month there are other more important things to think about & do and in a year it's all but forgotten anyways except to drag out when the BS gets deep with the stories. Then it's fun to embellish.That's one of the beauties of what we do. The job WILL end and we go on to something else. Imagine the poor fool who sticks to a lifetime job that they hate....just to get the pension.Then shortly after retirement (or even before), they die.Have a good day.
...the unsung heroes... in a successful reno job are good subs.
You are so right about that. It's taken three years here in Boise to get a well rounded bunch of subs, but it's hard to not take them along on every job. The missing links are still a detail oriented roofer and hardwood floor guy. Other than that we're fortunate to use guys that are easily in the top 5% of all subs in the state.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I have run into situations like this before and I learned ever so quickly that HO involvement slow me down. I solved it with a real simple statement....In a light hearted but sincere manner I simply put it that If I do the job it is this price if you wish to help it is a substancially higher number.....
ever since I have yet to have one HO insist on helping. Your time and gray hair has to be worth something.
good luck!!!
Ebe
It used to work on This Old House years ago!!! You dont see too much homeowner participation as much anymore!!!! Most cases they are a pain in the butt. I do all T&M I let the homeowner place orders on finishes and thats it.
-Lou
You must not be used to dealing with this sort of customer. No one will tell them what to do or how to do it. They are the experts. Darn it, they're going to do it their way! If it kills them and everyone else involved, they'll save five cents. Some folks just cannot be reasoned with.
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