I had an interesting phone call to my stairshop today. My client just informed me that I have to have his stairway done by Dec. 21st. Seems 40 days ago he locked in a loan for 60 days. He all of a sudden is in a big rush and like I can just drop all my other projects.
He said he will be getting penalized $100 a day…for 7 days. Then its a whole new loan that will cost him $22000.00 more by missing the deadline.
He told me he has his bricklayer laying till 11 p.m.
I told him I am not trying to be hard to deal with….but I am not going to jump through hoops to make this happen. I am working my normal hours…..but will delay one other client a “little”. I told him I would be lying if I said I would make that deadline.
He never checked with me when he signed that loan….and I told him politely that I have worked to long to start putting in extra time for someones miscalculation.
I know I am a little independant…but I have seen this happen all my life…..and I am just too layed back about it. I have my priorities……my wife and I are still taking off for our anniversary next week. I refuse to work weekends or nights….except for myself…..gyrocopter etc.
Ok….lets hear it……I have thick skin…..and am just as mellow as ever.
Stan
Replies
I knew a guy who had a sign in his shop that said something like "Your miscalculation isn't my emergency."
Could you offer the guy something which would technically get him through his hurdles, and which you can do without extraordinary effort, and then come back later to do the real thing? Y'know, like installing crude but code-legal stairs now, and beautiful ones later.
I usta every now and then tell the ones who annoyed me most "Here's the guy in front of you's phone number. Call him & tell him you're more important. If he agrees, you're first."
Joe H
Wow. That's something I'm gonna use from now on in my business. Having the ones call me who think that they are my only customer, that seems like a good way to put them in their place.
I tell people now, there are X people ahead of you who have made a down payment. Pay in full, in advance, and I'll move you to the top of the list. The small jobs I fit in where I can, when I can. The emergencies cost $$$$.
Edited 12/2/2005 3:36 pm ET by JonE
Repeat after me:
"Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
Now, say it in front of the mirror:
"Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
"Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
"Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
Now say it to the client:
"Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
Now agree to the job for an extra 19,000. He will come up three grand ahead (from $22g). Make no guarantees of quality, just for finishing by that date.
Sure, Mister, I can rush your order, just throw a couple more gyrocopters on the table and let's talk!
I don't have a bit of sympathy for your client. He's the one who shot himself in the foot.
Not your problem.
I was doing a little job for a lady once, running some crown mold in a bathroom, and replacing the cabinet bottom under the sink. There was nothing wrong with it, she just thought some water had gotten under it, and wanted to find out.
So I agreed to do the job for $400. I told her it would take one day. When I showed up to do the job, she asked me if I could be done by 2:30, because she had an appointment with her kid's teacher at shcool. I told her I'd try, but I wasn't making any gaurantees.
So 2:30 rolls around, and I'm done with the crown mold, and I'm nailing the new bottom in the cabinet with my trim gun. She's standing in the doorway, and I say I'll be done in about 30 seconds. So what happens, but my trim gun, which sometimes does this, refuses to fire. I have 3 more nails to put in, and she's telling me I'll have to come back the next day.
I tell her to chill out a minute, let me get the gun straightened out, and we'll be done. No! You can come back tomorrow. She gets her checkbook out and writes me a check for $350. I ask her why she shorted me $50. She said to make sure I come back. I told her I'm not coming back, and don't call me for any more work. I left my mess in the driveway and went home.
I know this isn't quite like your story, but yours reminded me of this one.
Allen in Boulder Creek
We do a fair amount of small work and it is amazing how many people call and want you to come over next week and do the work because they are having relatives over etc. etc.
On top of which many people assume we work 24/7! Just last Saturday I had a call at 3 in the afternoon on my machine. I noted it and planned to call after I got back from the job Monday. She called and left another message Monday morning and in an aggravated tone wanted to know why no one had called her back.
I called her and told her I don't work weekends except for paper work on Saturday mornings and do phone calls during normal business hours. In the end she said I was too expensive.
Stick to your guns and priorities. If the guy had bought 10 stairs from you over the years and always paid on time etc. etc. I would wonder if it would be worth bending a little but even then it is your decision. And frankly that is why I am in business and I am sure you are too, so I can call my own shots and pick who I work for and when. DanT
Thanks guys....
I left out a very important part of this story. He has gone through several contractors and the house would just sit there for weeks. If I do not have a deadline in my contract...then I "monitor" the houses progress as there are times I have waited over 6 months. When I see activity.....then I continue on and deliver the stairway right after the drywall. Well.....he must have had a gigantic crew come in and he has been pushing everyone. He just forgot to inform me of his deadline. He should have checked with me 40 days ago.....and then he is still in trouble should I become injured/sick....etc.
This is tough one.... I can just imagine him breathing on me the next few weeks.
I know how I will handle that....
Stan
I can see it now that regardless of what you do, he is not going to make his deadline anyway.
Stan,
the ability to say " No"---is a fantastic thing.
Stick to your guns.
I looked at a roofing project weds.----guy tells me it has been leaking off and on for 3 1/2 years----- all the sudden it has to be done NOW.
I told him it would have to wait untill spring. ( Hey MY roof ain't leaking!)
A month ago--- I would have done it---no problem
But I ain't climbing on his icey, snow covered roof NOW---just because he couldn't plan ahead.
I get 3-4 of these people every November---people who forget the winter comes EVERY year.
Stephen
is that all? October in Colo4rado, I would get 3-4 calls like that every day
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I don't doubt you Piffen,
but I am really only primarily interested in serving a market of about a 12 block radius---------so my target volume is WAY lower
also---- I don't answer my phone anymore. ( year 'round)---- a prospect can leave a message and I will return a call at their convenience. Not answering a phone saves a LOT of wasted time.------------
( early monday morinings used to be BIG time wasters--- DIYers who spent the weekend tearing off the roof of their house-----don't have it felted in----have to go back to work their real jobs Monday Morning-----and just realized that rain is in the forcast----like that's MY problem---LOL
Stephen
Thats a good idea.
If they dont get to hear you say no I cant help you it keeps them from being whizzed off.
Used to be a drywall and painting sub . Used to answer the call by Im pretty busy right now . That seemed to control the conversation a bit or set its tone .
Tim
Tim,
I don't mind telling people no------ but I have found that it really , REALLY pizzes some folks off----they go from 0 to mach 10 in about a nano second.
Behavior like that lets you know you made the right choice saying " NO"
I don't know if I have ever regretted saying no to a prospective job----but there are some customers I have regretted saying yes to.
Stephen
But wait a minnut.
Its not those people that matter so much as the ones they preach and tell at church .
I heard that at church so it has strength. Coffee chop is the same thing.
I think being told flat out no is a rejection that can be helf personal.
Happens a lot in the rental business . Heres how ;
Every tuesday night at 5 pm you can view Wends weekly classified paper weekly.
Prospective client calls at 8 am wed which is rack time . He or she thinks they have called you first . I tell them its already been rented and they have trouble swallowing it. Sometimes get whizzed off thinking I know who they are and am being selective.
Truth is I dont have a clue who they are . I rented it Tues evening after that client got it from the puter. That just happened to me with the eviction house. 3 people got whizzed off Wed morning cause it was rented already. They all assumed I fcould not have shown it that quick.
Tim
Stan
There is no deadline in your contract so it is not your problem, but you say you "Monitor the project" to adjust for delivery. I hate that. If you were hiered to build the stairs, build the stairs! It isn't your job to figure out when you're needed(thats mine) its your job to build the stairs!
I have an HVAC guy that has told me that ay your plumber isn't quite finished yet, ya don't need me yet, then the plumber says why rush the HVAC guy hasn't even started.
I am the GC(and the carpenter) ,and almost always on site. It is my job to monitor the project. When I ask for a sub to do his job,it is time to do it.
jayzog: I usually have 4-5 stairs going at once. I am a small operator....and I monitor the jobs.....allocating more time to one that may be needing their stairs sooner.
I am building the stairs......several.....When you have a client that takes 6 weeks to tell you what they want....I put them on the back burner and have no apologies for it.
Stan
Stan
I am always very impressed with the work that you post in the photo gallery and also understand why several jobs have to go on at once, but trying to guess when a client actually needs their product, and adjusting your production time to that guess , is a mistake .
When someone contracts you to do a job, you should tell them it will be 2,22,200,2000, or whatever amount of weeks to deliver. The progress on the job site should have no bearing on what you do.
Now if the client can't make up their mind on what they want, then the order hasn't been placed,& the process hasn't started. Keep it simple.
If this guy didn't tell you what he wanted, or had monitary issues, or another reason for you not to produce, then you are right to make him wait,BUT if it is sudden production on the jobsite that suprised you,then you are wrong,& should step it up to deliver.
Jay you seem pretty nice and youre talkin to someone nice too.
I disagree with you unless you pay my crew when they get there on schedule. The fact you dont pay my crew is the reason I monitor.
You would be the first GC Ive ever met that was ready every time by a set date. If you can pull this off every time , I would be your cheer leader but Ive never met one like you. Mostly its really a bunch of lies and we get used to it . Im sorry to say that in the worst way but GCs are bad at it and it seems accepted? Like its ok for a GC to tell that lie to all his subs.
Next subject is the GC is not in control of what Ill do before Stan gets there.
If my wife dies your job is gonna be sitting for at least a week if the roulette wheel lands on you.
If I get the flu Im not all that good working with high temps.
You just dont have control of what others will do and tell me it will be all right when you are not paying the down time .
Tim
Allen, have you seen these things?
Joe HView Image
is that one of those fancy nailers that doesn't need an air compressor?
"there's enough for everyone"
Yup. I have several, they're quite handy sometimes.
Joe H
You mean for the lady?No, I know what you meant. Without providing details, this was a situation that definitely called for a finish gun. No pounding. And I'm not so sure I would use that big Stiletto on little finish nails. ;)
Allen in Boulder Creek
First, his circumstances are not your concern. Likewise, your circumstances are not his concern.
Secondly though, I have to ask - did you say when you would have them ready when you struck the deal? If so, you really need to meet that commitment, even if it only was only verbal. If there was no discussion of deliver date - he messed up.
On a house I'm building right now, my old trim guy couldn't show up for 3 weeks until after he had verbally committed to - he had 2 months notice. What really PO'ed me was he gave me no warning - just didn't show up - then told me "next week" 2 weeks in a row. A few forgotten "I'll call you tomorrow"s too. After waiting 2 weeks I went with another (2nd string & cheaper) trim guy, which as it turns out he couldn't be there until the 3rd week either but I wasn't willing to deal with trim guy #1 unless he was willing to refund me the $700 in construction loan interest he cost me - I didn't even ask. The closing date will be missed.
Last month on another project, it was a concrete guy on 3 driveways. Same deal - 3 weeks late.
Month before it was the plumber. I constantly have to remind myself to treat people the way I want to be treated, not the way they treat me.
!!!!!!!! I GET SO SICK OF SUBS NOT SHOWING UP WHEN THEY SAID WITH NOT EVEN THE COMMON COURTESY OF A PHONE CALL. !!!!!!!!!!!! Granted, this may not apply to you. Really though the difference between "really good" and the best is not being a pre-fu%#*@#-Madonna.
Sorry - you found my hot button....
I GET SO SICK OF SUBS NOT SHOWING UP WHEN THEY SAID WITH NOT EVEN THE COMMON COURTESY OF A PHONE CALL.
That's a two way street you're preaching about there brother. I'm a sub. You know how many times I've had GC's tell me a foundation was gonna be ready for me to frame in X days? Only to have it not be ready for a week, two weeks, a month sometimes? That's after busting our assez working late, Saturdays, sometimes Sundays to make sure we could be there on time.
Try filling a one month hole in your schedule on a week's notice. Oh... and you've got three other guys depending on you to provide work so they can feed their families. And when they finally are ready for you.... you better not have got into something else that will make you unavailable for their new time frame or they'll give the frame away to your competition.
Ever stood around for half a day with three guys on the clock waiting for a lumber drop that was supposed to be there "first thing"?
I'm not complaining, unfortunately it's part of the business. Between weather related delays, permitting delays, and the human factor, it's just par for the course.
But that door swings both ways my friend.
Edited 12/2/2005 9:32 pm ET by dieselpig
waiting for a lumber drop that was supposed to be there "first thing"?
Placed a order on Tuesday afternoon, asked for first thing Thursday delivery. They said it would be there before 8:30. Lumber yard, not a big box. 8:15 the truck pulls up, driver hops out with a great attitude and a smile, hands me 10 pencils. Then he unloaded the forklift and asked where I wanted the material, and he proceeded to drive it all the way to the back of the lot and placed it 5 feet from the slab. Great service. And, on an order of $2700 they werer $600 cheaper than Lowes for the same stuff.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie.... what's your point dude? I'm talking about the bad experiences. I get great service from my lumber yard too, but sometimes GC's want to use there own yard or a cheaper yard and it ends up costing me money.... that's the point I was trying to make, but I can't figure out what your's is.
Just a comment. You're comment made me think about a recent good experience with a lumber delivery. That's all. Just a happy note for a change. :)
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
STOP BREAKING MY BALLS.
Just kidding. I agree completely that there are still a good deal of suppliers out there that offer great service and are sensibly priced. And subcontractors that offer the same as well. I was just trying to remind Matt (think that's who it was) that we, the subs, experience many of the exact same frustrations as he was complaining about.
There's always another side to the story.... and the truth lies in between.
"I get great service from my lumber yard too, but sometimes GC's want to use there own yard or a cheaper yard and it ends up costing me money"I’ve been there several times before with that crap about the GC's yard will have the lumber there first thing in the morning. I understand that it can be done if your first on the list and the load was put on the truck the night before but the problem with that first thing in the morning and it being the first day of starting the job is that anything can happen from which I heard "truck broke down", "truck had a flat tire", "one of my drivers didn’t show up today", "one of my drivers was sick"....etc.What I always do whether the GC supplies material or I supply material is get it there the two days before and have no problems. I always call the lumberyard at least 5 days in advance to see what there schedule is. If the GC or Builder wants it there the day I start and it doesn't get there he will pay. There’s no excuse not to have it there before we start.Joe Carola
You are right, it is a 2 way street and schedules do change... and everyone needs to be informed ASAP. You said though: >> Try filling a one month hole in your schedule on a week's notice. << Sounds like you did get the phone call so it's not exactly the same thing... as: "I GET SO SICK OF SUBS NOT SHOWING UP WHEN THEY SAID WITH NOT EVEN THE COMMON COURTESY OF A PHONE CALL."
So, do you think I should have waited the additional 3 weeks for this trim carp who had 2 months notice or was it OK that I gave the job away to his competition? And during the 2 weeks he strung me along with stuff like "maybe next Tuesday" he never called me once with an update or returned a call when he said he would. So, it's not exactly the same thing, is it? If I really wanted to be a jerk, I would have treated him exactly the same as he treated me; I would have not called him and told him I got someone else - just let him show up to see that he had been replaced. Actually I was quite polite and pleasant to him - just in case I need to use him again...
From what I know of you Bryan, I seriously doubt that you are that kind of sub. Still, we are only hearing one side of this story from the OP and he only said what his contract stated - never once that I saw did did he say what kind of delivery schedule may have been discussed initially. Nobody is beyond reproach and he did say something along the line of: I have a thick skin so let me know what you really think.
>> And when they finally are ready for you.... you better not have got into something else that will make you unavailable for their new time frame or they'll give the frame away to your competition. << Well maybe, but don't lie to me and say you can be there 2 weeks from today, and then when the day arrives and I have to call you so I can hear you need 3 weeks more - well, yea, I might just find someone else cause time is money to me too.
Yes, I do have loyalty to my subs, but I have schedules to meet, etc, too.
Hummm - let me see - if I use 20 subs to build a house and each one shows up 3 weeks after the day he commits to, I guess that means that I have to have an extra year in each build schedule filed under the category of: time for subs to get around to showing up....
Re: >> Ever stood around for half a day with three guys on the clock waiting for a lumber drop that was supposed to be there "first thing"? << Yes I have, but the thing you gotta ask yourself is "who lied"? The builder or the lumber supplier? So, maybe, in this case, it's a 3 way street. BTW- My guys won't even show up on site without a call from me confirming the materials are there. I have a great building supply, but always arrange my deliveries a day or 2 in advance. And, if for example, my framers need another 30 studs, I go get them... - today.
I guess what it is all about is that subs and builders have to be honest about their schedule and their situations and inform all involved parties ASAP.
Matt.... you missed my point big time. I'm agreeing with you. I don't condone your sub's tardiness. Just like I don't condone GC's giving me the brush-back for two weeks. I'm just saying that it happens on both sides of the fence.
Diesel ... is this the right place for me to insert another good news story?
:)
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I gotcha... It's just part of the biz... we all gotta just stay in touch, be honest, and let everyone know ASAP when there is a sched change. If it weren't for this stuff, I'd just write a computer program to do all the scheduling for me, send E-mails to my subs, and all I'd have to do is hang out on site, order materials and talk about fishin', motorcycles, and other important stuff ... :-)
BTW - do you supply the materials for some of your frames? That just isn't done here...
It's very rare that I would supply materials directly on a frame as a sub for a GC. However, I have a great relationship with a big lumber yard out this way and one particular lumber salesman in particular. Where lumber pricing is so competitive, often the GC will ask me who I prefer to use and I always recommend the same guy at the same yard. He just does his job really well and that makes my life easier. Incidently, after framing jobs that this guy supplies for about three years, I've finally won his trust and he's begun turning other GC's on to me.
It's a good relationship. It probably sounds funny that to you that a lumber salesman would be such an important contact. But this particular guy works for the biggest supplier in our area and does three times the sales volume of any of their other salesmen. He's the right guy to impress as he's locked in with a ton of great connections and always knows where the work is and who's looking for a good framer. He also knows who pays their bills on time.
Since he's throwing me work to bid on, I've begun offering a discount to other GC's that don't regularly use this guy if they switch over. It's good for everyone and keeps things in the family, so to speak. Ideally, I'd like to work for the same 3 or 4 GC's excusively over and over and only deal with this yard. That's the goal anyway. Find a tight group of quality minded guys to work for and with and stay right there.
brian.. that's the way i do business..all based on relationships..
some guys it's price.. but to me it's all about trust.. can they trust me.... can i trust them..
watch out though... try to deal with guys younger than you.. eventually you get to the point where they all start retiring and you gotta break in some newbies...
did i mention that i got 3 sweet PC sidewinders ? ... gonna give one to young Mike on Monday Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well I'm glad they'll see some use, even if it's just for parts. Better than sitting in my basement for another year or so. IIRC, the cords are shot on pretty much all of them. Consider it an early Christmas gift..... or a very, very late one. (G)
I too have a lumber salesmen/relationship almost exactly as you describe. Largest yard, etc/etc, although I don't know what his volume is compared to other salesmen, I can tell you that when I visit his office he always has several calls while I'm there for 15 minutes. I can honestly say he is one of the business people I've ever seen. He's been there for 20 years.
One difference though. I do shop price on all big ticket purchases like framing packages, drywall, and trim packages. And I have a (lesser) relationship with a few other salesmen/yards. It "keeps everyone honest". So, although I do occasionally order from these other guys, salesmen #1 has told me that if his price isn't right, he will make it right... Which I will call him on in particular with framing packages. So, #1 gets 80% of my business, but occasionally I call for a price on, say 200 sheets of drywall, but never call back to order - and I think he knows that I just didn't decide to not buy it... Sometimes though I'll order the big ticket items from him without shoping price, although I get him to price it first. Don't tell my boss man though ;-)
Oh - and salesmen/yard #1 gives me great service too - rarely a late delivery.
The only sub I have who orders materials that are billed directly to me is concrete.
Edited 12/4/2005 8:08 am ET by Matt
I would tell him you're an independent artisan contractor and its going to stay that way. You do the kind of work you do because you love the trade. You have a tried and true system that you've developed from years of experience. Once you start to deviate from your system it takes the fun out of it and becomes unpleasant and thats not in your business plan.
He f'ed up, not you. Now he wants to put the burden on someone elses shoulders.
Simple really. As w/ real estate, and just about everything else in life.....
Your price......my terms.
Your terms.....my price.
Did he offer to pay more (extra) to get it on time?
In his place, I would have offered you a "cash bonus" if you could so kindly "work overtime" to "help me out" by completing my job sooner. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper than 22k, and with xmas around the corner, it could be a benefit to you both.
Amen to your suggestion!
"Mr. Client, to meet this new deadline, my people and I are going to have to work overtime and weekends. Now we are looking at time and a half or double time depending on the hours. To meet this new deadline, I'm going to need an additional $$$"
And make sure you are well compensated for your efforts in those additional $$$.
Good luck.
1st go up and have a nice relaxing hot cup of coffee with Lisa. Then call the client tell him what reasonable schedule YOU will be comfortable complying with. If he's agreeable, make sure you have a way to get your money and do the work. If he doesn't agree, have another cup of Joe and ask Lisa to take you ice fishin.
Contracts and agreements should always have dates in them. They may change, but they should be in there from the get-go. Start date, completion date, dates for milestones in the project. Most times it's ok not to hit them 100% of the time, since a delay in the start if a project can and usually will ripple down and affect everybody else.
There is a term in conract language that you should be aware of.
"Time is of the essence."
This means that the dates are REALLY enforceable on the contract. Ripples or not.
Jet be aware for that language, and know that it is a legal term, and more than just your typical dates mentioned in a contract.
Pete Duffy, Handyman