Tomorrow or the next day I need to climb a steep (12/12) roof and I want to come down when I am through and not by sliding. I’m too old and break too easily.
What safety equipment might be available at the big boxes or what technique would you use? Another question, if I screw some stops, what do I need to do to make sure the screw holes do not leak, or is that a non-issue?
John
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Replies
And the reason is...
To enjoy the view?
To replace a few shingles?
To do an estimate?
To install a satellite dish?
To clean a chimney?
And are in what kind of physical shape?
A) Hot Dog! Look at my abs
B) Just a hint of Dunlop's disease?
C) Pick me up and put me back on the couch, Please.
While humourus - I'm not poking fun at you personally, The answers have bearing on the methods I would recommend.
As for srewing a few into the roof, on the way down, when removing the screws, slide a small slip of metal up under the shingle with the holes in it with a dab of silicone of geocel caulk .
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
To enjoy the view while repairing the leak around the chimney. While looking through the trusty binoculars it looks like someone went nuts with some kind of aluminum sealer at one point. The flashing has pulled away to the point it looks like bat wings. I saw dayligt along one side of the chimney (it probably doesn't matter but it has not been used in 20 years according to the owner. The fireplace or whatever it was for is long gone.
Physical condition...I'm old and fat...but I still out work a lot of guys half my age. I do this stuff partime to afford to keep teaching.
john
Ridge hook to hang a chicken ladder from is my choice for this. An AL ladder is not too hard to handle. You need the one ladder you will get up there on and the other one to walk to the ridge and work from.
But wait Ladies and Gentlemen, There's More!
if this chimney is undused for the last twenty years, and the flashing is that baad, you might find it unfixable. There is good chance that frost and weather have done their thing to the mortar and no matter what you do to the flashings, it will still leak. I would be telli9ng them before investing too much time in climbing up there that removing the chimney and patching the hole might be the only option.
In that case, you would likely want to use the jacks and a plank to work from. If you have an unobstructed back field, you can chuck one brick at a time down there. If it is a close built neighborhood, you will not be as fat by the time you are done running up and down those ladders with a five galon bucket full of bricks.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You can rent roof jacks at a rental place--they're like shelf brackets that you nail to the roof (best nailed through the sheathing into rafters). These jacks have like saw teeth and you just choose one to put the nail through (16 penny). Then you put a 2x8 or 10 onto the jacks and stand on the 2x. The only problem is moving on the roof to put the jacks in place. Once there are some shingles down, the footing will be better. I hesitate to recommend this, but my old boss told me about it and I tried it on a 12/12 roof and it worked--get an old foam rubber couch cushion and stand on it. It works (gotta be bare foam--no fabric). Only problem again is how do you move--guess you could use two--stand on one, put the other down, stand on it, lift the first one up. He said his brother tied two around his feet. Roof jacks and boards are better--tried and true. (Oh, when you move the jack, just drive the nails flush--don't try to pull them out.)
Oops, just re-read your message--you want to climb an already fifshed roof, right? Jacks won't work. (Would work, but would put big holes in the shingles. Guess you'd better get some ideas from others out there. I'm sure there are harnesses and stuff. Just don't throw the line over the peak and tie it to the bumper of your truck (unless you lock it and keep the keys on you!).
if the roof isn't too long....
you can get a ridge hook that will clamp onto a ladder section.. the best kind have a trolley wheel on one side and the ridge hook on the other side.. roll it up the roof, flip it over and hook the ridge.. then you can walk up and down the ladder.. reverse the procedure to take it down..
but if your nimbleness is all a memory.. better to stay off ladders and roofs
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Since you're looking at the web, try http://www.versales.com.
I got a Yates harness and rope grab from them for working on my roof. I don't like heights, so I prefer to work with tension on the line at all times.
http://www.cmcrescue.com is another line of equipment you can get from VER.
I don't think I've ever seen that kind of thing at the box stores. It's out of their league. It would violate their policy of only carrying the lowest possible quality. Just like they don't have stainless fasteners, sheet copper, etc.
Do you have a while before you have to worry about heavy rain again? I hope so. Take the time to get the right gear before you go up there, even if it means letting it leak a while longer.
-- J.S.
Safety gear is part of why I asked alll those questions, but if it does tuyrn out to be a quick simple flashing fold and caulk job, he can be finished with it faster than he could set up the gear.
Of course, if he is going to try the foam cushion trick, the fall prevention harness is a good idea. LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Won't be as fat eh? Sounds like the roofing job from hell last summer. It did take 20+ pounds off though. This is just north of San Antonio, so I doubt the frost affected it much. The bricks are covered with stucco (as is the rest of the house) but I like the idea of just tearing it off and be done with it. I've worked on this house off and on for three years now...always an adventure.
The house sits on 1.5 acres so I could easily just chunk them down as long as I miss the 400 (okay, 25) flower beds. I own a set of roof jacks (unused) but this would take more than one set I think. I also have an extra ladder but this house is strange. The roof line goes from ground level (10'?) to the second floor where this chimney (they refer to it as a flue, a vent for the old furnace?) is located. My extra ladder is not that long. I like the idea of a safety harness but do not think HD or Lowes has one in stock. I may just rent an extra ladder and use that...except that I have to climb up from the front and then work on the far side whose roofline is about 20' off the ground.
Keep the ideas coming though...I want to read more posts next week and not from a hospital or morgue. And no, I won't be sliding on foam, or hooking a rope to a car bumper...
Edited 6/22/2004 9:49 pm ET by Harris Dog
If you have an REI (outdoor gear big box) anywhere close, you could go there and get a stripped-down nylon alpine harness for $25. Anything that's good enough to hang on down an icy crevasse is good enough for a roof. I used mine for installing a skylight last summer.
Ruth
A lot of the climbing stuff comes with a warning not to use it for roofing. Not sure if there are real issues of interaction between the synthetics they use and roofing materials, or if it's just liability CYA.
-- J.S.
John:
More heavy rains expected tonight but this thing has been leaking a long time, just not showing up. The paper covering the insulation simply fell away. I just e-mailed the owner about Piffins suggestion to remove it and patch. I like that idea the best and if they agree, I will patch it temporarily and order the saftey harness. I like playing with my grandkids and I have another on the way that I would like to spoil.
john
John
And I though I was the only one using ropes and harness.
I use static ropes and like them tight also.
Jeff
I've been using fall arrest harness's for a few years now. And I've lost track of the number of 'contractors' who say people who wear harness's are fools and should not be on roofs, as "people who wear harness's aren't sure footed and are afraid of heights".Renaissance RestorationsVictorian Home Restoration Serviceshttp://www.renaissancerestorations.com
I'm not sure footed. I'm afraid of heights. I wear a harness. So they're right on three points.... Maybe even four or five.... ;-)
-- J.S.
I'm not sure footed. I'm afraid of heights. I wear a harness. So they're right on three points.... Maybe even four or five.... ;-)
I'm reasonably agile. I am not afraid of heights.
I am afraid (reasonably) of maiming injury or death.
Harness not such a bad idea. (Caveat: Have to have a reasonable place to tie off--8' high mounting point and 6' safety strap not quite enough protection . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Afraid of heights, I don't think so.
I used to rock climb and climb radio towers.
I might add, I've never fallen off a roof of any angle in all these years.
I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.
Jeff
Did somebody mention 'THE ROOFING JOB FROM HELL'...? http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=34292.1
HD--
12 in 12 isn't particularly steep; but it is too steep to walk. If you've got a few roof jacks, that'd be the best way. You won't need more than two jacks for each staging plank, since you'll only need 5-foot-wide planks.
Here's how to do it:
Set up your ladder to get up to the eaves. Bring up two roof jacks and some 2½" roofing nails and your 5' plank. Lift the tab on the second row of shingles, and slide the roof jack's tongue up under it. Nail through ALL THREE slots with the 2½" roofers, in the area underneath the tab. Best if you can get into the rafter with the nails. Install another jack at the same level as the first, 32" or 48" away (two rafters left or right). Set your plank into the jacks, nail it in place through the hole in the bracket hook, and climb up onto it.
Now drag your ladder (or a second one, if you've got it) up after you, and lay it flat on the roof. Reverse the foot pads of the ladder and jam them into the space between the staging plank and the roof. Like this:
View Image
Now extend your ladder. If it isn't long enough, you'll need some more jacks and perhaps another ladder. You know: Lather, rinse, repeat.... (Uh, it's a good idea to know this before you drag that ladder up onto the roof, LOL....)
View Image
If your repair is going to take you awhile, take the trouble to install a set of jacks and staging plank at the final level you will be working; it's a lot more comfortable to stand on a 2x6 or 2x8 than on a ladder rung for any period of time.
BTW--THAT'S a steep roof. 25 in 12....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thanks, D. That pix must be worth at least 2000 words...I knew someone would remind that wasn't steep, but 25/12 sure is. The homeowner accepted Piffin's idea to tear off the chimney and patch the hole, so I will be up there awhile and will buy some more roof jacks. I need to go back into the attic tomorrow morning before things heat up and measure the spacing on the rafters...2x4s darn it.
If you're gonna tear off the chimney completely, build yourself a little platform that straddles the ridge once you get up there. Or borrow a ridge scaffold from a mason. Heck of a lot more comfy to stand on when you've got to swing a sledgehammer....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
This probably results from my thinking style, but I think I am going to use a hammer drill (New tool!!!!) and take that thing down one layer at a time. These homeowners are great to work with, but have definite ideas about what they want and they do not like the idea of my using sledge hammers.
The portion of this chimney that is inside the house is enclosed in a new wall and they want to avoid any possibility of damage to anything. With my luck, the first hammer blow would topple too much (yeah, I know how highly unlikely that is) but I do not want to explain why I did not allow for that possiblility. They have a lot of valuable antiques, so I go slow and rack up the hours instead of ripping it out and gettin on with it. I may change my mind after the first few bricks though.
Glad to see you're thinking about being careful.
My Brother took his chimney down a few years ago. He had a fairly new roof and didn't want to mess it up.
So he knocked the bricks off the top one at a time and dropped them down the chimney. Once he had dropped a batch, he went down in the basement and pulled them out of the clean-out at the bottom.
That made for a lot more trips up and down the ladder and roof, but kept the mess contained and he didn't damage his roof.Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. [George S. Patton]
The message from Sphere about the "Ultimate sin" is fresh on my mind and I still have to visualize each step of this job before I can comfortably do it.
Gotta go get started on it now.
Thanks everyone, I will check rental yards and come back during lunch to see other suggestions on buildin that platform.
john
huh? You could NOT be him..(I hope)..if ya are, see what accusing good guys of wrong doin gets ya?..an Randy still talks about you two..so does the plumber..
Be carefull..."cougar paws" good roof boots..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
No, I am not "him". At least I do not think so, and I try to never accuse anyone of doing wrong, I do too many things wrong myself to worry about others.
I would reconsider the cushion in addition to anything else you may use. No jokeing around. I've been with several roofing crews and we all use cushions. But don't use the cushion for walking, it's not made for that. It is for sitting only. While sitting on it (working or taking a break) it will cling to the asphalt shingles and will not move. It also helps keep your bottom off those hot shingles.
Jaybird31
Jaybird:
I had just finished reading an OSHA safety bulletin when I responded to you...I will try the cushion and it would keep my backsides cooler and I just realized that the side of the roof where the chimney will be removed is 8/12, not 12/12 like the front that I have to use to get to the chimney. Thanks for responding, and I understand that the foam should be uncovered.
john
OK, how about a variation on that idea, sort of a mini demo chute: Get some of that flexible corrugated plastic drainage tube, big enough to slide a brick thru. Rope off one end up near the chimney, drape it over the eaves and cut and tie the bottom end off just inside the top of a 55 gallon drum or a small dumpster. Send the bricks down the chute one at a time as they come off. It should be possible to send all the bricks down without having to stop and mess with the bottom end, and it should protect the roof and landscaping very well.
-- J.S.
I like the idea except for the flexible corrugated pipe part.
I think you'd need a ridgid PVC 6" in diameter for the bricks to slide well.
I'm afraid they wouldn't slide well in the corrugated pipe. And if it was flexible, it would sag and/or whip around as a brick slid down it.If a lawyer and an IRS agent were drowning, and you could only save one, would you go to lunch or read the paper?
Before you drag your new hammer drill up on the roof, try a 3lb hammer. Usually a light tap will knock each brick loose. I have taken down several old chimneys over the years, most of the time is spent on safe staging , the brick taps out with a single tap of the hammer.Save the hammerdrill for when you really need it. One other thing, helps to have a layer of sand on the ground to toss the bricks on. The sand keeps most of the bricks from cracking. Easier to pick up full bricks than broken pieces. 4 to 6 " of sand in an area about 8-0 square will do. Put poly down first, then sand.Also protects sod from damage, though grass will turn brown if left on for a couple of weeks. I would guess that you could take the chimney down in a day or less, after you have a safe scaffold.
mike , ex-chimney remover
Excellent advice Mike. Thanks for posting it.
Ditto--I like that idea a lot. I'll remember that one myself. Only question is--how do ya pick up 8'x8'x6" of sand on a sheet of poly when you're done...? That's about a yard and a quarter; must weigh a good two tons or so.
Idea! Hire all the kids in the nearest daycare and give 'em all little shovels and buckets--5 cents a pail full, kids, let's see who can make the most....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
It is a lot of sand, I shovel it into wheel barrow and dump it in the dumpster I have on hand for the brick. Sometimes I toss the brick into the dumpster. Not often can you get the dumpster close enough to the chimney though. Makes a heck of a lot of noise when the bricks hit dumpster. One particular job in a crowded neighborhood I had the sand dumped into the dumpster and then placed next to the house. Next door neighbor was chief of police, he warned me not to make excessive noise. He did not care himself but was aware of some neighbors who call him every time a contractor makes a little noise.He used to do construction work part time when still a beat cop.
mike
I used a 28 foot ladder to climb the roof from the back deck. That portion of the roof is 8/12. Walking on it was no problem. Impossible to get a dumpster in this yard so will use the sand on a tarp and just toss them down. However the adjuster told them that they have $1600 deductible for wind damage (not the $250 that covers everything else).
That may delay the job since the Great Stuff prevented leaks when we got 3" night before last. I have a lot of windows to do first (remove old paint and repair/repaint). That new Festool RAS really gets the paint off (especially with a 24 grit disk...I am reap careful there). The adjustbale speed is what makes the diff.
john
For a tear-down you definitely want to build a scaffold up there rather than working from a ladder laid down with a ladder hook or roof jacks. They're pretty simple to build but do require a number of trips up and down. Don't know if I can draw you a sketch to post here, or even if you need one, but if so, let me know. Might be able to give it to you written out.
Thanks for the offer. I think I can figure out how to build one, but a picture or description would probably save me a few hours of fiddling around. I will also go look in the FHB cd to see if they have one there (faster than searching through back issues).
john
Wish I could draw. Writing this out much tougher than I thought.
You'll need ~5# 16d double headed nails, ~6 16' 2x4s, ~ 10 8-10' 2x4s, planks as needed and ladder w/ladder hook.
Nail 2pairs of 16', one nail only, about 18" from one end. Stand up against eaves. Stand up the other two. Get the pairs up and straddle 'em over the ridge, one each side of the chimney. Add 1-2 more nails to fix them. Take the two single 16', center them on the pairs so they're level, nail securely to the pairs.
Take 2 of the 8', and attach perpendicular to legs of the pairs, tying the pairs together. Needs to be far enough down the roof to get planks around the chimney. This part takes some moving around of the ladder/ladder hook.
Next take 4 of the 8' for verticals. Nail on the uphill side of the perpendiculars you just put down at the bottom, and to the horizontal 16' that are centered on the ridge at the top. Sometimes you need to cut an angle into the bottom side for better fit and to avoid shingle damage.
Take 2 more 8', nail securely to the verticals just under the horizontal 16' to support outer ends of the 16's. 2 more for cross-bracing from lower roof to these last 2 supporting outer ends of horizontal 16's.
After this, plank around as comfortable, add railings to at least give you a visual of the end of the staging.
If somethings not clear, as I'm sure it will be, let me know.
Rick
Thanks, Rick. I was at a lumber yard this a.m. and asked about what you described. One of the guys there drew a diagram and it let me see exactly what should be done...but you gave me the idea and I thank you. I also realized that the back of the roof is at a 8/12 pitch so once I get up there, it will be easier to work. I also used some of that expanding foam to seal the gaps from inside the roof this morning to buy some time. I checked rental yards and may look into a "high boy" or whatever the acceptable term is. But most likely will just use the platform. I did find they had safety harnesses for sale and in stock plus they include one with the "high boy" but cannot rent one seperately.
john
Have you thought of renting a high-reach?
If I could reach the chimney from the front, that was my first thought, but I cannot get one (high reach) into the back yard due to the numerous flower beds. I have convinced the homeowner that I do a thorough and complete job as well as protect her property. She has several rental properties and even if I do not do the work, she has me look at the job before and make recommendations. Her property manager is not real fond of me.
Two weeks ago, a microburst or some similar event blew some of my shingles off near the ridge of my roof. I bought a longer ladder than I had available and placed it fully extended so that it would lie flat against the roof. The roof is about a 10/12. Essentially, the ladder was at about a 45 degree angle. I placed two stakes into the ground to prevent the ladder from slipping away from the roof with my weight. I was able to get up to nearly 40 feet to replace the shingles with this apparatus. I do not recommend it for everyone. Maybe this will work for you.
In a job like this I always bid, and don't work hourly. I find I make more that way. Wierd jobs always command a premium. If you think that you will be up there for more than a day take the time to build staging of some sort. Standing on a ladder for 8 hours is increadibly exausting, even is the work is easy. Also living in Texas you may want to find a helper for this, sounds like there will be a lot of up and down action. A helper can ease the load. I am in the Dallas area and can tell you that the greatest danger you face ( if you really are old and fat) is the heat.
Good luck,
Mike
Spelling does not matter to me...although I teach, most of my students have such poor hand writing if I counted off for spelling they would spend the rest of their lives in my classroom.
I am older (60) and overweight, but a check up last fall had the cardiologist and his nurse both tell me they would love to have my BP. I do take it easy in the heat and I usually save roof climbing for early morning and after 6 at night. Worked fine last summer. Thanks for the concerns though.
Old crappy chimney with bad flashing... huh?
Well, I'm lucky enough to have a guy on the crew with LOTS of exp. doing high work... plus, he only weighs 145... wet. So, I'm usually his anchor on the other end of the safety rope... at 6' 2" - 255... :-) He ain't likely to pull me very far off the terra firma!
We do some crazy steep slick roof jobs... Like painting old terne coated metal 12/12 three story monsters. (Pays crazy bucks too!). He is a master at rigging to get to weird places too. I've learned a lot from him.
The other post about good climbing gear was right on... Getcha some good stuff. Then, nothing beats having a big guy like me (grin) on the other end to keep your rope tight, but still let you move around. We even use radios... cause, usually I can't see him.
As for flashing old chimneys... I like to use a 4.5" diamond blade in a grinder to cut a slot six inches or so above the roof. Then I squirt a good urethane caulk in the groove and stick the edge of my flashing in and bend it down and nail it to the roof. I bed the part on the roof in urethane too before nailing it down. You can also double layer the shingles around the chimney to cover the flashing... assuming you have some to match. This is about as close to step flashing mortared in when the bricks are laid as you can get... Never had one leak... yet.
I'm your size with no helper, but I do have a tree handy. The backside (2 story) is an 8/12 so if I decide to rip it down, I will build the platform. I did find rigging locally, but it is too cheap ($59) to risk my life with. I'll wait and get good stuff.
I did find rigging locally, but it is too cheap ($59) to risk my life with.
When I bought a safety harness at the local safety supply store, I asked about the difference between the $59 harness and the ones that cost about double that. The clerk (whom I have delt with for several years and seems to know his business) said the difference between the cheap one and the expensive ones was comfort, convenience, and longevity. He said if I was only going to do a couple of jobs and didn't mind the less convenient buckles along with the lack of comfort, I would be just as safe with the cheap on. The cheapie had only a single "D" ring whereas the more expensive harnesses had several "D" rings including the sides and front. For my purposes working off of a man-lift, that was not a factor. So, if the cheapie harness meets OSHA, fits properly, and has the "D" ring where you need, you will probably be just as safe with it as the one costing twice as much - but you probably won't be as comfortable.
I started out with the minimal and uncomfortable Miller harness, and went back to buy a Yates. The extra comfort is well worth it. As for the old one, I gave it to a dominatrix who has a winch in her garage. She loves it for the discomfort.... ;-)
-- J.S.
The urgency was reduced considerably on this job when the adjuster informed the client they had $1600 deductible on wind damage. Eventually the chimney will need reflashing, re-stuccoing (new word?), or removal. In addition I will have to work on the same 12/12 roof to repair some windows. The chimney turned out much easier (when I get around to it) since that part of the roof can be reached off of a deck and is only 6/12...I did not consider accessing it from the deck at first. The windows are on the steep side. I will build work platforms and use safety harnesses or rent a "high-boy" since it can be accessed from the front. As mentioned earlier, the high-boy includes a safety harness.
Thanks to everyone and I appreciate the good suggestions.
john
Edited 7/1/2004 1:59 pm ET by Harris Dog