A relative is investigating how to semi automate the process of carving figures (large animals or edge detail for example) into HUGE hardwood doors.
I guess this means a CNC Routing/Milling table. This is where our knowledge finishes, does anyone out there know which way to turn? I have looked at a few CNC machines out there, but few support the dimensions we require. Feasably 7.5 * 7.5 Feet square….
The ones I managed to find were VERY expensive, and VERY fine tolerance machines.
Also, how easy is it to upload a 3d image of an Elephant for example, and ‘Let her Rip’!
Thanks
F
Replies
Yes they are expensive.
The last one we had was vertical feed with 6 heads and cost a little over 1.2 million.
Gabe
http://www.iswonline.com/
This site talks about CNC milling for woodworking, this might be a lead.
CNC machines can start at under $6,000 (search for Shop-bot; uses a Porter Cable router to do the work), then you can get into bench top models for 20K or so, and then up from there....you need to determine if you need a 3-axis router (x and y coordinates, and z for depth), or a four or five axis router (dedicated carving routers would be four or five axes typically, but you can do a lot with a 3 axis and a ball end router bit, finishing up with other bits). Thermwood has a 5-axis with a 5' x 5' table starting at $95K U.S, and an eight spindle 4-axis carving router starting at 347K....probably WAY more money than you want to spend, but I used that as an example of what's out there at a certain level. The 5-axis would sort of fit into the space you have, but it's really tall. You might want to look at AXYZ and Camtech; these are two companies that have smaller machines, that might be suitable, but so much depends on the application. FWIW, I'm keeping my eyes open for a small 5-axis right now; 3-axis machines are way more common in woodworking because that's all you need for most woodworking jobs.
The other thing you need to be researching is CAM software; that's what drives the machine. Even if you have a design in 3d, (in a CAD file, say), you need to generate the code that a router understands; usually you will find a machine already bundled with a CAM program, or if you have one you want to use, you have to see if it can be used with the machine you've chosen. Sometimes there is a post-processor available; sometimes it has to be custom programmed. Artcam (I know that will drive an AXYZ router) might be suitable for your application, but you need to talk with an expert, and I aren't one. The sign industry might be where you could find a small router and a software package that would suit your needs.
A couple of other resources for you are http://www.woodweb.com (they have a CNC and a CAD forum), and http://www.cadcode.com; there is a good forum there. http://www.thermwood.com has lots of info on CNC routers in general, too.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Get on the mailing lists of all the auctioneers in your area. Then wait and watch. Sometimes the big ticket items like this are a real steal. I saw a couple Bridgeport mills go down for $750 each.
-- J.S.
I don't know anything about metalworking machines, but in wood, you have to be careful of older machines, as I understand it. For one thing, the older machines often had proprietary controllers; you couldn't use any third party software, plus you had to know a lot about programming. New machines are much better at using the new, more user friendly software. Plus, those old controllers go south sometimes, and good luck finding something to drive the machine.....same goes with support, it may be hard to find someone who can even remember how the older stuff worked. When i was in Germany last year, one of the guys I was travelling with from another school had to see a vendor about a problem with his CNC machine; he was told there was nothing they could do to solve his problem, the machine was too old. At five years.
new machines give you up to date features, warranties, and training, and if you're new to this, that training is vital.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
If my experience with auctions here in oregon is any guide, you might have to wait a long time. I have followed the auctions in a North West regional paper that specializes in auctions and farm equipment (The Capital Press) and have seen only one CNC plasma cutting rig listed - and it certainly didn't go cheap - and none that were set up for cutting wood... This was probably from several hundred industrial auctions over the past four years. Of course, Portland is a lot smaller than LA so you might get a lot of them down there.
Yes, there's some kind of machinery auction every week, usually several.
-- J.S.
Another avenue to check is 3D carving with lasers.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Lots of good leads here chaps, THANKS VERY much, I will chase each one in turn. One things for sure, looks like we've slightly 'Underbudgeted' on this 'little' project!
Will keep you uptodate
Thanks again
F
I checked out Phill's laser suggestion last year. You can get into that for about $20K. Decided that sending own artwork (on Corel draw) out to local shop for carving (priced per sq inch) was less cost overall (plus, where to put another big machine). I also second John's suggestions to watch auctions, but know local pricing first.
I am a CNC machinist by trade. I am not sure of what is available in the woodworking market for CNC machines, but I do know that anything of the size that you are looking for in the metalworking trade would be at a substantial cost (as has been said already). It is true that today's machines are very user friendly, especially those with "conversational" programming, though once again, this comes at a significant cost.
I don't know the intricacies of what it is that you intend to do with this machinery but have you given any thought to one of those "pantograph" type routing systems? I don't know how common these things are in the woodworking industry, but I have seen one that worked quite well at a chair making company here in Maine before. This type of system would not be as automated as a CNC system, but could likely be made DIY. Depending on your production requirements, and the pattern of what your trying to make this could be a viable option.
Yes, great changes in CNC in the last 30 years; I was recently telling a group of student machinists about spending hours using a teletype terminal to punch NC programs on paper taper; run the tape to debug the program; then go back and cut a new tape for every fix. They asked why I just didn't use a PC and test on a simulator: I think they're still pondering the concept of "wasn't invented at the time".
In any case, unlike metal-working mills I'm familiar with (where the tool stays fixed on x-y and the table does all the moving), on a CNC router, the powerhead travels while the workpiece stays still - makes for a reasonably compact footprint by comparison. The trouble, IMHO, with pantograph tracing is the difficulty with the z-axis for 3D work..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
A generic CNC question, not that I want this to go off track.
What does CNC stand for? I gather it is some form of what I used to know was called CAM - Computer Aided Modeling/Manufacturing.
TIAIf everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
CNC stands for Computer Numerical Control, basically a computer control which uses numerical data output to control machinery.
Also, the pantograph type machine that I saw did actually have "z" axis capability, or the ability to change depth. Obviously some sort of original design would be required to trace the pattern.
One of the lowest price units that I have found that will do 3 axis CNC router work is the Torchmate. This appears to have been designed primarily for 2 axis torch cutting of metal but they do have a "Z" axis option that is supposed to work with a router. Unfortunately, I don't remember what the depth limit for the Z-axis - doing a 7' scale model of an elephant would require a fair amount of depth. Their basic unit is supposed to cut 4'x8' sheets and is about $4100, but it appears that this unit is being phased out and replaced by (what else) a more expensive and supposedly more robust unit. They list a unit for doing 61"x97" work for about $6500, but the Z-axis would add another $1200 (? I forget, maybe it's $1800). I have seen one of the earlier models but not the later ones. The original ones took a lot of fabrication by the buyer but they say the newer ones are more complete. The link is:Torchmate
Yeah, the pantograph setups I've seen have plenty of z- axis capability for any carving can imagine on the door. Didn't mention them because you need an original to copy, and that didn't seem to be the intent here.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S