Hey guys, have a little question on interpretation…
Have a client in Minnesota. Has a “cabin” out here in Washington St.
House looks to be built around 30’s, with some addtion done around 50-60’s.
Met with him out here and wants to do a kitchen remod and remove a few non-loadbearing partitions.
After we both look the place over, decide lets go ahead and do new ‘rock, update the wiring, new furnace, move some plumbing, floor coverings, new windows, etc. while were in here.
Thought to meself, boy does this change the scope of work…Need to see what we got behind there before we go ahead.
Both thought the best course of action would be to go ahead and strip the drywall off, floor coverings, and kitchen cabs out and see what we got. Get our subs to come out and do sum figgurin’, Then come up with a game plan, floor plan, some numbers, and get it to the county.
Started to get stuff out of the house next day with the crew.
County stops by and puts a “stop work” order on us and is fining us.
Now the question….In your opinion, is it a code violation to remove drywall, floor coverings, and cabinets to get an accurate picture of our scope of work???
Just thought I’d get your opinions on this.
BTW (Homeowner thinks that this is funny, and assured us any fines on his behalf would be taken care of..;)
Replies
I think by definition, it is what the County says it is. Reason and logic don't always apply in these situations. As a rule, I think it's always a good idea to talk to the permitting authority before ANY work begins and let them tell you what you need in the way of permits. It's not 'The County" after all, it's a person or people and they usually appreciate it if you respect them enough to bring them in on the ground floor. That way, they're less likely to bust chops later.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
"I think by definition, it is what the County says it is. Reason and logic don't always apply in these situations."
So with that reasoning, is it safe that Stop Work Orders and Fines are arbitrarily applied with no rule or governing body?
i.e. (example) "I don't like where he parked his car in the driveway, so I am going to give him a citation because I can."
Just seems a little odd, No?The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
I know that arguing with an Inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Pretty soon you figure out that the Pig is enjoying it!
I don't know if that's a good attitude to have on the eve of your meeting. And don't wear the hat of the winning or losing superbowl team. You might think about bringing donuts.
Please, come back with the transcript of the session.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I'm not saying the way these things work is right, I'm just saying there may be little profit in arguing. If you want to site chapter and verse, the County may say, "It's your right to appeal this decision to the State. The next hearing is in July." I'd just go in there, apologize, explain that the intent was to survey the situation so the proper permits could be pulled the first time, and promise never to do it again.
Ask them to cite the specific rule violated. Maybe it's a local rule and not in a national code, but a state or local one. Do you have all the proper licenses for that area? Maybe these rules are in the laws that cover licenses.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Well, demo short of structural has always been ok here. I have heard of some governing areas where a demo permit would have to be issued b/4 that work could proceed.
What I can't understand is why it was necessary to start w/o a plan and how to deal with structural issues. I would think it would be an extreme imposition to tear out the kitchen to cypher out what we needed to do. I may have misunderstood.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Client and Wife wanted to see what we have.
Schedule is on a 9 week time line, A seasonal house, decisons with him have always been this way. (Old house, wants this, no time...just do it please.)
Understand ...This is the only client that allows us to get in there and make sure all bases are covered.The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
OK, I guess I understand the reasoning in opening it up. Just seems if they decide against a course of action, there'll be cost in covering it back up. I realize too that in certain instances, it might be the only way to "see" whats in there and what might be feasible to do. If all the variables are figured and cost of direction taken into account, it would be the next logical progression.
You talked to the chief bldg inspector about their stop work order?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
No, I think I'll stop in tomorrow morning to possibly clear up any concerns they have.
I know what you mean about opening it up though.....But this guy is GREAT to work with, and $$$ or related items are never an issue.The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
I can easily see where it could be a code violation. For example you are removing drywall and possibly be exposing materials that need to be covered.
But I suspect the REAL reason that for all intend and purpose it APPEARS to be part of an unpermitted remodeling project.
They have no way of knowing your intend, just the dumpster full of materials.
Good point on the INTENT....The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
the real reason you got fine for not having a permit is : they did not get their tax money before you started. Its all about money, thats all
I belive you have hit the nail on the head!!!
Just a side note...the permit fees' are determined on the estimates of each subcontractor. It's a little interesting.
Also, I have had almost all the sub's out since drywall has been stripped. All of them have been surprised as to what we found behind the walls. All of us are able now to pretty easily and correctly estimate the job. Then with these estimates armed, go to the county and get the permit witht he right fee's attached to each scope.
(R9 @ walls/lid; Knob and Tube tied into romex; 2x4 rafters spanning 16 feet; etc.)The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
Money is part of it. They also have to justify their job.
Bill,
Just a thought..
Can you (me) be cited under UBC for intent?? (Not pointed directly at you, just your point is exactly what I was thinking)
Boy is this project gonna be scrutinized. No worrys though....Great guys(subs) and our crew. Always excellect craftsmanship. Just what a way to start out on my left foot.The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
I an basically a DIY and starting to do a few things for some friends. So I really don't know all of the codes that well.
But I don't see this as a code issue, but a permit issue. And permits cover a lot more area than just the building code. Zone, min, max size, max height, allowed materials, etc, etc.
But there are a couple of things in the IRC.
R105.1 Persmits required for .."enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish.. ..enlarge, alter, repair, remove, covnert or replace any electrical gas, mechanical or plumbing system the installation of which is regualted by the code..."
Now you have certainly altered and demolished this structure.
And there are some practical reason to require permits for just the amount of work that you have done, in addition to it appear to show that you have started "new work".
One is that the building is not left in unfinished or unsafe state. I.e. the DW is torn off and then it sets for 6 months and rats start invading, etc.
PB,
Why don't you go look up the regs yourself at town hall? It's public info.
If I were you I would very gently apologize to the inspector in person with good eye contact, a firm handshake and a humble plea of ignorance. Now you have a fresh slate.
I see where you are coming from exactly and I don't disagree with you questioning. That said; the officials have the upper hand here, Period.
Fer instance lets look at it from their point of view: say one of the people doing this work gets injured by a falling beam or something ridiculous. Would it be a far stretch for the lawyer representing his widow and five kids to include the municipality in the lawsuit?
How about if your client decides to stay over for "a few night" during this demo and inhales "Toxic" dust or leans some cunductive material (like himself) against that old knob and tube......back to the lawyer thing again.
Get over the issue of who is right or wrong and get on with your work.
Eric
FB-
I just thought I'd ask if anybody knew of the reg's, that's all.
The apology has been done, but in reading the Inspector, MUCH is to be desired.
As far as the injuries and possibilities....All of us are Licensed, Insured, and Bonded, as any other reputable contractor is. (and ALL, incl. us, the GC and the Subs, are FAR exceeding their own General Liability requirements as per the State.)
I understand your points, and agree with you, and the rest, in the position I am in, including all the physio and psycho dynamics that go with this.
But, in checking around, this County follows the UBC codes and enforces those. No other "ordinance" or such is included.
That said, as I was looking for before, Is there a code violation for the demolition that has been done (DRYWALL removal), to a point to be cited?
This was just posed as a Sunday afternoon question. I know that the Agency has hand here, but as my wife and I sit last night in bed, wondering where does this justification come from, I have to ask.
Tomorrow I guess I will have a few answers and possibly some insight. (Going in with the "A" game on.)
"But, in checking around, this County follows the UBC codes and enforces those. No other "ordinance" or such is included."
There has to be. There is at least one adopting the UBC (and which version).
But there has to be one indicating who has can issue the permits, how much the permits will cost, who does the inspecting and probably a number of other details.
I'm sorry. I agree and am aware of those type of ordinances, etc.
But there wasn't a specific one relating to this situation. (drywall demo in anticipation of estimates and job scope, to determine permit. ) Nothing states if this occurs, a fine will be imposed upon the contractor for commencing work, etc.....
Anyways, thanks agian for the look-up. I really appreciate it. (My UBC Volumes are on loan out of town.)
I was once red tagged on a T&I in Port Hueneme, CA. Rolled into town early on Sunday, and decided to demo the defunct clothing store's changing booths before picking up the approved permits on Monday morning. By 8:15 Monday morning, we we're tagged.
I go down to the city's very small building department to pay the fine and pick up the permits, and meet a red faced bureaucrat who informs me that "you guys from out of town think you can just roll in here and do whatever you want!". I wonder if his brother was the local bid, ( the chain I was contracting for always got them ), or if he was just a power hungry clerk.
You're from out of town, right?
BTW, every inspection was agony.
Good luck.
skipj
Thanks...I think.
Seems tooo similar. Maybe its in the water :)
I find that a little a** kissing can work wonders. The bright side is that the owner sees the humor in it. You should too.
But, in checking around, this County follows the UBC codes and enforces those. No other "ordinance" or such is included.
That said, as I was looking for before, Is there a code violation for the demolition that has been done (DRYWALL removal), to a point to be cited?
Others may laugh including you..........I see that you are a Pisces as I am as well........let it go and forget about whether it is just or not.
If you don't get what I mean, look up thr traits of a Pisces male.
Eric
Bill-
Thanks! this is what I was looking for!
I really appreciate your time in looking that up, as this is one of those stupid things that for some reason is bugging the c#$p out of me. This will at least let me sleep tonight because there is such a code.
I totally understand all of your points, and I whole-heartedly agree with them (ie-state it being left in, liability issuses, etc.) I just thought it be funny to get cited for something that seems so insignificant in a 800 Sq Ft. structure.
Well, don't that beat all!
They probably have no way to draw the line.
Here, you can do all the demo you want wiuth no permit, but you are more than likely to hurt yourself. Anything not typically allowed now is grandfathered and certain rights go along with that.
One example I can think of is the guy who has no record of his septic system. These are designed based on number of bedrooms. He has three BRs now and takes down a wall to make it two. In a few years, he wants a permit to add on to the side another bedroom. He has lost his grandfathering on the existing septic, and has to rebuild it or find a soils gut to certify that it is good enough, which he can't do.
But if he had gotten a permit to tear out a wall and reduce the number of bedrooms from 3 to 2, it would have been recorded as a public record and he protected from himself.
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Piff...(or anyone)
In your experience or knowledge, is there a UBC or I-code that prohibits this?
I'm trying to recollect the #, But i guess I am brain farting right now on that.
Too bad about the Septic thing. I can think of a couple instances that are similar to the one you describe.The greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. RWEmerson
I'm thinking that the only good reason for requiring a permit in your case is to assure the town/county guys that you are not removing any structural members. I don't agree with BB that it's always about money, but some places they do get over zealouis in protecting us from ourselves. I've been blessed with not having to satisfy inspectors very often in my life. Local people who wear many hats are generally more reasonable..
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge
FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree in terms of safety. Especially some of those who are not in the building industry.
It is a small county, in a small unincorp. town, on the water. You'd miss this place if you blink. Location is a very low visibilty area.
But is it against UBC to remove drywall etc. (no structural members were affected.)
Thanks for the reply.
Not saying you wouldn't have but just for argument if you had 'forgotten' to get a permit and completed the job would you have gone back and gotten a permit and inspections? Even if you had to undo some of the work so the inspector could get a look at the concealed portions? Even if you knew you were going to be fined?
If so, why are you complaining? If not, how can you blame the inspector?
Either you screwed up not getting with the inspector early enough or you got caught trying to pull a fast one.
On the down side if you have had previous problems with inspectors you can look for them to track you, and your work, more carefully. On the up side if you have a previously good relationship and a history of getting permits in a timely manner the fines and judgements can be appealed on the grounds it was a simple lack of communication and a singular oversight.