A customer is wanting to paint the 10×12 deck on a covered porch before winter in MT. It gets up into the 50s now during the day for a couple hours, dipping into the teens at night. I offered to do this last summer, but she wants to do what she can of the project…so it’s still not done, lol. It could snow any day and not stop until June, so she’s suddenly motivated. The porch get a LOT of traffic, as she runs a very busy business from home.
She told me she read on the Internet that adding household ammonia to latex paint quickens its drying time, making a small window of opportunity sufficient for painting during the day. I haven’t found anything to substantiate this and further, my only experience with ammonia and latex is that after a can of latex paint is ruined by freezing, it smells like ammonia – not a good omen on the face of things, but i could be wrong.
Gurus? Ever heard of such a thing???
I have to go to work now, will catch up with this tonight.
Replies
I wouldn't paint it unless it would be warm enough to do so. Could you enclose the porch with a tarp and put a heater in it to cure the paint?
Martin
My experience is like yours with regards to the separation of the ammonia. That implies that there is ammonia in the paint to begin with, but that it is there in the optimum amount as learned by the paint chemists. They are all specific in their label instructions what to thin with and in what maximum amoutn. I think she stands a good chance of ruining the whole shebang.
Do a risk assessment with her.
No paint till spring - worst case scenario, the wood gets damp and needs some dry time and light sanding before painting. it already needs some sanding to get a good bond since she let it go this long, so the only drawback is that it get wet and needs to dry. It won't rot over winter because the bacteria and molds do not grow at low temperatures
Try this ammonia scheme - worst case scenario, it all goes off badly and she has to scrape and sand deeply to get it clean to re-paint. She ends up with far more labor and paint cost. Maybe strange chemical reactions turn it gummy and she can't walk on it for months...
Paint on a warm day and hope for the best - Worst case - It doesn't cure properly and it flakes off over winter. She has to do some more sanding and paint again.
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If it gets into the teens at night, I think it's too late to paint this year. There could still be frozen moisture in the wood even during the day.
Also, even if the paint dries to the touch very quickly (with or without ammonia), paint continues to cure for days. I don't know how well it cures under freezing conditions.
I've heard that ammonia thing too. I asked about it at my paint store and they looked at me like I was mad. But they often do that. One of these, I'll experiment a bit. I'll also experiment with alcohol. It will probably ruin the paint, but at least alcohol makes some sense because it clearly evaporates quickly.
Agreed, we are having a real life painter do some now before the bottoms drop out at night. He swears SW Duration is OK to APPLY at 50, with lows overnite no lower than 30. Any #'s below that and he says wait till it warms up. Period. He won't chance a failure.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Thanks to all who replied. If DonCanDo hadn't said he'd heard of it, too, i'd just have blown it off, but now I'm going to have to make up a test board with "ammonia paint", painted and overwintered outside, just to assuage my curiosity. The deck has a few boards of brown wood in it where i repaired some rot, so that's why she wants to paint the deck quick and dirty. I hope that, like many of her projects, she simply doesn't get around to it and next spring i get to do a proper prep and paint.
I have an experiment in progress. I painted 3 test areas on a primed piece of wood using 100% acrylic exterior paint. The 3 areas are: 1) straight from the can 2) diluted about 10% with ammonia and 3) diluted about 10% with denatured alcohol.
Even diluting the paint that much, I was surprised to discover that (other than being thinner) the paint behaved pretty much the same as the control. That is, there appeared to be no significant effect at all. The dry-to-the-touch time wasn't improved, the color wasn't effected, it covered about as well, and so far there seems to be no problem with adhesion.
I left the test piece outside where it will be exposed to rain, temps and sun since I'm still curious to see if there will be any long-term difference, but my guess is that if there is, it won't be noticeable on a small sample like this. If it does hold up, I think it would be a testimony to the quality of the original paint, not a reflection on either of the thinners.
I am NOT recommending this technique for use in the real world. It's just a case of me watching too much Mythbusters and wondering what would happen if...
Next run the experiment again and put the piece in the fridge for 3 days or so after painting.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Good idea, but so as not to intrude on beer space*, I'll wait until the great outdoors provides a natural freezer/refrigerator.
*actually, I almost never drink beer or anything else (anymore), but I just couldn't think of what else deserved reserved space in the fridge.
SW Duration, A100, and Superpaint are rated for 35 degrees. I think painting in freezing weather is a guarantee for failure stripping the deck will be a real PIA.
Don't let her do it.
Bruce
I was just reading the label on duration and it showed fifty degeres until surface dry
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I have only read the big print on the labels. We do not get much weather below 50 here so I do not pay that much attention. Thanks for the info.
Bruce
My curiosity got the best of me and pulled up the cut sheets for Superpaint and Duration. On the cut sheets they say apply when temperatures are above 35 degrees. The info is under MSDS/data sheets on the SW website.
Bruce
I'll take another look at the can I had come moday
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10x12 seems small enough to tent with 6 mill poly and a space heater. I'd heat the room up for a couple of hours before painting, then keep the heaters running for the rest of the day. Could work. Can't speak the ammonia though.
The ammonia is the only question, really. I'm not perplexed about how to do the job, but the HO wants to do it herself and already bought the paint. It's not the 35-degree sort and she's not the visqueen-hanging type. <G>I'll be doing this job come Spring, for sure.........
>"the HO wants to do it herself and already bought the paint."Bless those for whom painting is still "fun" and "easy" - she'll have something to look forward to in six months.
One thing I have finally learned is not to raise the hopes of clients, friends, family, etc. when they are looking for advise/suggestions to complete a project, especially a shortcut. If I can't give sound advice without first hand experience or knowledge, I'll say something like, "I've never heard of it being done that way so I'm not sure that it'll work". I don't even like to say "it might work" because if it doesn't, I don't want any mistake on who provided the advice. I used to feel inclined to research honest questions for folks, and still do on occasion, but I'm trying to cull that from my list of services, at least until I can figure out a way to get compensated for my time.
Good luck with it. If she tries the ammonia let us know how/if it works, I'm curious.
Tell her that if she tries it she should try a small area first and see how that looks after a few days before proceding. And she should use freshly bought ammonia, probably the non-sudsing variety (without added soap) if she can find it. Only mix as much as she can use in a day.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I wouldn't feel confident that a few days of "aging" would be sufficient to know the long-term viability of painting in such cold temperatures, whether or not any any additives (of suspect value) were added.
While I will admit to being very conservative about adding anything to paint or painting when it was recently or will soon be freezing, I will also admit to basically ignoring the information on the paint can that usually says to paint above 50°. ... I just looked at some left over Benjamin-Moore exterior paint that I have. The old can (about 2 years old) says 50°. The new cans (which are now labeled 100% acrylic) say 40°.
I have routinely painted below 40° without any problems. 3 days ago I was painting at 38°. That was the lowest overnight temperature. If it had been freezing overnight or would drop below freezing anytime in the the following 24 hours, I wouldn't have done it. My main concern would be freezing of any water in the paint that hadn't had a chance to dissipate. If it were an oil-based paint I would take a few more chances, but there's still the issue of frozen moisture in the wood being painted.
I wasn't suggesting that the test would be a solid confirmation of the technique, but rather figured it would at least eliminate possibilities such as the paint not setting at all after the ammonia is mixed in, or the paint turning to gel when the ammonia is added.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
<<until I can figure out a way to get compensated for my time.>>Oh, but i AM compensated! I get to learn new stuff! So what i said was, "I've never heard of it being done that way so i'll post that on my carpenter discussion forum. If they haven't heard of it, it doesn't exist." I've been remodeling old houses for over 20 years, but i thought it might be one of those tricks, like dishsoap in drywall mud, that i hadn't come across before i washed up on these shores.
I would call the man hot line . Is really that easy.
If you perform the job against man specs , youre on your own.
If you were going to be on your own , Id rather thin the paint with water 10 percent and apply light coats .
The bucket will say or used to 40 to 50 degrees and getting warmer or until paint dries which ever . Painters rule of thumb is 40 degess in the sun or 50 degrees in the shade , plus holding 50 or above for 2 hrs considering a decent humidity for drying time . After that time theres not much that can freeze unless its enamel which takes much longer to dry.
Flat paints and stains dry much quicker than the same with sheens . Sheens can take twice as long.
Fans are a big doctor to this trade . Not only will they more than double dry times but they can prevent in sub freezing weather .
The sun defies a lot of rules plus color. Lets say it was Hunter green in full sun with a temp of 32 degrees and reaching 40 in two hours. It would not come close to freezing and would dry just fine from the heat . The wood would retain the heat for several hours above air temps.
Theres an example that Ill give that Ive used for years which freaks people out to hear it including pros that enforces the theory .
In the dead of winter nothing dries very fast . I tape a house and have a torpedo going all day which produces heat with a high amount of moisture . The point to remember is that Ive held the house constant for 8 hrs or so. I pull the heat and open windows to release the moisture all night in very cold weather . Two things happen. Theres constant breeze through the house all night from air changes if not wind too. The walls will retain heat through out the night since theres insulation there and its warm. The tape will be dry the next morning on the flats . The inside angles may not be but they were done last . If the house were closed up all night it would not be dry.
Tim
Sometimes you can only paint for an hour or two a day but being ready to go when the temps peak at the minimum helps spend no lost time .
Interesting about the taping scenario, but i'm curious why you wouldn't using electric heaters that don't put out moisture? Too expensive compared to a torpedo? Fans are great for drywall, but if i use them with paint i get a lot of dog and cat hair 'texture' on my walls, LOL....I think this porch project is buried for this year, and i'm about done with outdoor work this season, too. I'd told her about the low-temp paint instead of using what she has, but it's still not done, sooo....i have a sneaking suspicion when i show up one sunny day next Spring with my pressure washer conveniently loaded in the truck that she'll think my wages are suddenly more acceptable compared to her getting down on her hands and knees to save a few bucks and/or feel like she did her part for the cause.
I dont normally have enough power to run electric heaters . Who ever is paying the electric bill would do it . On a new home there is normally only a temp pole and its X amount of distance away. One small portable heater is 20 amps . Even if I could run one small one its moot because windows open will dry a lot more . Its awsome really if you ever try it . You will be a window left open person . <G>
Ive long declared my self a "fan man". DW and I are working inside a flip at present . She asked yesterday if we could load some of these fans . "Weve got 6 fans in the garage ." She was floored when I bought two new ones , but I didnt have any like them. They are small turbines .
The last 10 years they have been bringing in electric coils from discarded units and running them off thermostat. Thats normaly a long term deal at best and not me since Im only there a few days to a week. I havent heated my job yet and I open windows and doors when IM drying with fans .
If Im concerned about dust when spraying such as enamels , I mist the floor with water . I learned that from an auto painter in the spray booth. It will last till youre done spraying and it will make a light coat of mud you wont see but it wont get airborne when it dries unless its walked over. Fans wont bother it either. I do spray the floor surrounding the walls before I spray rooms with latex and it doesnt blow dust.
Tim
I keep a dust collector type fan running all the time. After a dusty operation like sheetroccking, I vacumn, then put on my dust mask and put the vac hose on the blower end, and use a narrow nozzle to blow dust loose from the walls and ceiling ( all with the dust collector running.Then I take a coffee break to let it settle ten or twenty minutes. most of that dust is either in the dust catcher filter or on the floor where I vac again.No dog or cat hair survives that. Gets 98% of the fines too. Never thought of misting
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I did that .
DW was griping abut dust in the house on one my projects in the basement . I thought about it and came up with a 20 inch box fan with with a 20 inch hepa filter taped to it .
Wasnt my original idea though. Had this guy trying to sell us a rainbow vacumn. He put water in it and sprayed some stuff the air so we could see the dust or what ever it is . I saw the stuff heading towards the unit and getting sucked in. His thought was running the machine to clean the house air . I though that was lame but I stole the idea.
I dont mind hearing a 20 inch box fan. HUh? What ya say? Im about deaf anyways.
Tim
Edited 11/11/2007 1:23 pm by Mooney
What?
You mean they make noise?
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I also have a fan collection and do like you and Piffin sorta...i hang box fans from the top jambs in the doorways and any windows, then start blowing dust with the compressor parked at a safe distance until the air's clear or the fans are dead, whichever comes first. When i made a slate hearth for the woodstove, i left out a slate behind the stove and cut a foot-square hole in the floor. I've hooked up a fan to draw air down to the shop in the walk-out basement. That doesn't have anything to do with drying paint, except there's a fan involved and it's on my mind. <G>
Edited 11/11/2007 4:18 pm by splintergroupie
Draw some nice VOCs up thru that vent from the shop past the wood stove and cat hair is the last thing you will need to worry about
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Yup...that'd be ugly.... I'm blowing warm air down, however, and i do all my lacquer spraying outdoors. Actually, when i was woodworking for a living, i had to have most of my product ready for shipment by now to arrive in stores right before the TG weekend. What i lacked in a spray booth i made up for in rubbing out with gusto! <G>
I can't find a thermometer, but it feels to be about 75* upstairs and about 65* downstairs right now, so the system seems to be working. I wasn't sure if a fan would pull enough warm air from around the stove body compared to pulling from the colder floor. I have a fan i got from a radon system i dismantled, so i think i'll put that in-line instead of the small one i have there now for even more air changes (or whatever it would be called inside a house). A bit noisier, but the price is right. I bought a small squirrel cage to do this a few years ago when i was at Boeing Surplus, but it's snuck off somewheres....
Coming from 25 years in the paint manufacturing industry, I can tell you something about latex paint and ammonia.Latex emulsions must remain at pH values of 8 or more until the water is out. There may be some ammonia in very fast drying products, but most of the "ammonia odor" comes from slower evaporating amines like ethanolamine and the like, which evaporate at about the rate of water so that the pH value remains high throughout the drying and film-forming process.The only reason to add ammonia to a latex paint is to fix it when pH has dropped (like in a dip tank) or to keep pH up when you have to dilute it a lot in order to spray.It's too late now to use the paint your HO bought. Tell her if she won't buy some of the 35 degree stuff, she should wait for springtime or pray for a Chinook.
BruceT
Well, thanks very much for that, Bruce. I always like to know the reasons behind the rules and i figured when i posted there just had to be an expert out there!
There are brands of paint available which are supposed to be workable down to 35F.
Last I heard, ammonia in paint is to help it bond to the surface.
I've always wondered why frozen paint smelled like ammonia when the unfrozen stuff doesn't. It seems the freezing is required to force it out of the paint, which leads me to question that just adding extra would do much of anything beneficial. Still, i'm intrigued enough to slap some on a board when it gets a little colder today and test the theories.
Ammonia will break down freshly "dried" paint. I have used it to clean brushes and trays.
I doubt that much would be good to add to pain.
BTW, ACE hardware has a 10% janitor's ammonia. I think that the standard house hold is only 5%.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The big question is why would you paint a deck?
LOL...it's a Victorian, mind you, not one of those 6000sf MT 'cabins'. In some parts, i think the paint had been keeping people from falling through.
First to JesseI think I read it is a covered porch deck. Porch floors traditionally are often painted. And the fact is the home owner want's it painted. Also splintergroupie wrote it was repair work and the rest is already painted.I Personally prefer building decks and porch floors with naturally weather restraint materials and treating with non-filming oils and stains also, but if the design is for a traditional painted porch floor or the homeowner does not want to pay to replace a floor that is already painted on a remodel or repair with all new weather restraint materials then you paint to match the old. Personally I would have at least pre-primed the boards on both sides before installing them but that is just me. I also feel any painted wood outside should be back primed as well as sealing all cut ends.To ALL:I too heard a tip on the DIY network about adding ammonia to paint in cold weather to help speed cure time. But they also had a tip that a green light over a bowl of soapy water is effective to rid your home and pets from fleas. Any one who has ever had a flea infestation on their pets can tell you that a light trap may catch a few fleas from that area of your carpet but it sure will not get rid of enough fleas to solve your problem. Paint formulas are made for maximum wear and optimum working time to produce the best results as they are. If you go and mess with it you are only going at best to get less then optimum results and at worse a complete mess. Unless you can get a paint manufacturer to approve adding ammonia to their paint DON'T DO IT or at least offer no warranty on any paint altered or applied outside of the recommended temperature range.
Ah, i'll tell the HO she wasn't hearing things!
I prefer back-priming, too, and pre-painting before installation if possible, but the wood i had to use was treated and wet. I treated the cuts with preservative, too, and installed it very tightly so it'd be right once the seams opened up. No way i'd pre-paint that....
Last time I was in a paint factory, they still had a lab, complete with full time degreed chemists. I submit that this would not be the case, were paint something simple.
I don't think 'paint' is a material, as much as a method of application. Just as no one would confuse 'going for a drive' with designing cars .... let's not confuse 'painting' with 'making a colored coating.'
There are many, many things in different paints. Even within the same general category (such as 'latex) there are likely to be huge differences between brands, product lines, and even production runs. Indeed, Reno is filled with warehouses of paint ... and every paint is stocked in two varieties: for California, and for everyone else.
My point is that any 'trick' you try could very well work with one can - but not the next one.
Finally, let's not confuse 'dry' with 'cured.' Just because a paint is dry to the touch does not mean it has cured fully; that can often take weeks, in the best weather.
The customer needs to be told she's out of luck.
Yep, we emailed today and she's OK with waiting, but i'm still trying out the ammonia-paint experiment in a couple hours. I've got a scrap board with primer on it, so i'll mix up a few different concentrations, label them, and see what happens.
I would NOT add ammonia to pant. It is a solvent used to remove paint, preventing it's adhesion to most surfaces. If you need strong adhesion of latex to your substrate, add a product called EB, Emulsa-Bond.Expert since 10 am.
Uhhh. Not quite. It is a Surfactant and detergent. It IS a constitute of paints and coating due to surfactant nature. It makes water "wetter" by breaking the surface tension.
Yes it will remove waxes, but it is not a "solvent" in that capacity.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
you are right, it is a surfactant and detergent.
while it is present in small amounts in paint, adding more will cause it to act as more of a surfactant and loosen the bonds that keep the paint adhered to the surface.Expert since 10 am.
"Uhhh. Not quite. It is a Surfactant and detergent."Actually, ammonia is not a surfactant. In solution with water it is NH4OH, strongly basic and used in paints along with the family of chemicals called amines. Its purpose in latex paints is to keep pH value above 8 in order to prevent the resin emulsion from falling out.Surfactants are detergents which do make water "wetter" and enable oils to be emulsified in water. Some wetting agents are also used in paint formulations.
BruceT
I hadn't heard of Emulsa-Bond before, but it sounds too good to be true! Eliminates the primer coat...i can dig that. I'll check it out...thanks.
At this point I would encourage her to lay down a coat of Thompson water seal and wait until late next spring or early summer, considering how fast the temperatures can change in her geographic latitude.
Virginbuild
The problem with Thompson's is that it will prevent decent paint adhesion.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
gonna have to sand to prep anyways
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There are paintable, water repellant, protectants that would be good for this.Jasco makes some. I think that Wood Life might be one, but I am not sure.They have a copper or tin oxide base for anti fungal properites and wax for a water repellant, but not enough that prevents it from being painted..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My question is is she really going to be using the deck in cold ans snowy weather??
Sounds like a whole lotta risk when weighed against likely use until the weather improves enough to actually enjoy the outdoors on the deck.
Runnerguy
This is a covered deck (balcony above) as the main entrance to a house used as a very busy home office, so it sees very heavy traffic.
The HO and i talked this morning about another project, some gates. Anyway, they got the first snow of the season, so i'm almost certain the project is safely tabled...and i'm betting next Spring her business will be taking waaaaaay too much of her time to even think of doing it herself. (They went from zero to seventy employees since she and the partners started not quite a year ago! I might have to charge more! <LOL>)
I just found out where I heard about that ammonia thing. It was on the DIY network. It was one of their bogus "tips". I've seen enough of their tips to know that it's information for idiots... by idiots.
The deck never got painted by the HO, so i'm betting i get to do it - the right way - next year. I'm glad neither of us took a chance on that 'tip'.