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Hey y’all,
My boss recently pulled me off the main site and had me, and one other guy, hang an apartment addition. At least, that was the deal. We get there and the place was not ready: Still needed strapping out the wazoo, the skylights needed to be shimmed in… I told the owner we’d be happy to do the strapping and neccessary carpentry by the hour, through our boss, and then get on with the hanging. The owner now says that the tapers had to fix so many mistakes etc etc that he isn’t going to pay. All of this is on a verbal contract…(grrr…)We were never contacted and asked to fix any mistakes… I’m trying to think up ways to get my money from this asshole without violence. Any ideas?
Thanks, G
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Gerard, thought the boss was billing it out?
*Violence might work.In the future, try and present yourself in a way that lets everyone know that you are a friendly good natured psycho, except in matters regarding the payment for work performed. I would never hire one outfit to hang and another to finish. And its best if your painter and drywaller work together.
*Regardless of who's billing, or the verbal aspect of the contract, since you did the work, you can file a mechanic's lien on the owner's house. It may not be pretty, and you may not get paid right away, but that is an option. Another option would be small claims court, which would also not be pretty... I've found the best way to avoid these situations is to be like Tommy said, easy to get along with except very very anal when it comes to money. Not anal, "professional". Either way. Oh yeah, and get it in writing, it wouldn't have prevented this situation but it would have helped...Good luck,Andy
*Used to have a sign in the office " Dont take verbles" That pretty much sums it up. People it seems have what I have heard it called.. "selective amnesia" and it comes upon them when it is most opportunistic for them. I know that is not the case in your situation. In your situation I would sit down and talk to them. If you cant come to a consenus , explain to them what a mechanics lien is and mention the small claims to them. A letter from a attorney can help also.
*Gerard-you're not going to like what I have to say but it sounds like you were "talking for your boss" rather than have your boss contact the customer direct about any change orders or time delays. Sometimes it is better to walk away from a disaster before it gets worse.Your boss would have been more impressed with your performance had you brought the shortfalls to his attention rather than the customers.Bob
*How much time has passed? Beter do something before time runs out. Consult your state's mechanic lien laws. You can alway cloud the title of the property.In CA, you have 30 days as a sub, 60 days as a GC to file a mechanic's lien. 90 days (not 3 months) to file lawsuit. Substantial completion starts the clock.
*And if he weren't, maybe it's time to look for a new boss.
*I may be a little dim here, but I don't get it.Your BOSS sent you over there, on his clock. There was some extra work to be done, and you said you'd be happy to do it THROUGH your boss, on an hourly rate. What is the problem? You are on your boss' clock, not the home owners. Your BOSS owes you your wages, not the homeowner. If the homeowner ain't paying the boss, that's his problem. You work for him, so HE (the Boss) owes you your wages. If you are on his clock, it doesn't matter where you are, or what you are doing. You are his employee, doing work for his company. He needs to pay you your wages. It is his problem on how to collect from the homeowner. Now if you actually meant "we slipped this one in under our boss' nose, and behind his back", and contracted (verbally) directly with the homeowner to do the extra work, and the boss really didn't know anything about it at all, well that's a different story. If that is the case, the boss got screwed, you got screwed, and the owner got screwed. Everybody got screwed. Getting screwed has a way of making the full circle sometimes. Next time, tell your boss about the extra work, and let him deal with it. Making some extra money on the side sometimes turns out to be working for nothing on the side. James DuHamel
*This is another classic case for a pre paid legal insurance policy. The attorney would either call or send a letter, free as part of the membership, and I'm fairly certain the homeowner/builder/boss would cough up the dough fast.I've seen and heard so much of this stuff in my lifetime that it jaded me.blue
*I'm disappointed, Blue. Took you 7 messages to slip that one in ?
*Ron, I really don't want to be a spammer. Its just that I've seen way too many "contractors" get screwed unnecessarily over the years. I've actually developed a severe dislike for most builders although I know that there are probably some good ones.I'm on a mission to get all the local boys signed up around here-well as soon as it gets warm enough to stand around chatting. The sooner the builders know that they can't screw over the little guys, the better.blue
*blue,I'm not so sure they would cough up any dough real fast. I went through a seminar given by our corporate lawyers (I was a General Manager at the time) and they explained to us that a letter, or a phone call was just a threat. They said to ignore either, and just keep on doing whatever it is we were doing. They said when things got serious, we would get a certified letter containing the paperwork for a filed lawsuit. At that point, we were to let THEM handle all of the details.I never received any kind of letter from a lawyer, so I never had to deal with this aspect. I still remember their seminar though, and have always thought about the "letter" from a lawyer, and what it means. Lawyers ain't gonna do anything serious enough to take up their time and efforts unless they are about to charge a lot of money. Their services are definitely worth the money, but you gotta have it to pay it. This is not NECESSARILY a good situation for pre-paid legal services. A letter might work, or it might not. If someone will screw you once, they have probably screwed people before. If they have a history of it, they probably know the legal system that deals with it, and know that in most cases, nothing ever comes from it. I'd be more inclined to call the Labor Board in a case like this. Free representation, and they can sure scare the heck out of an employer. They will get the employee's money in short order.Just a thought...James DuHamel
*Forget the lawyers it's a waste of time. The original post eludes to the reason your not getting paid extra is because the tapers had to do extra work, because of you. So there for your money is now going to the tapers. I suggest you meet with the builder, your boss and the tapers to get all the stories straight. With everyone face to face you can usually tell if someones lying. Your boss will then know if he's getting screwed, who's doin it.
*> I really don't want to be a spammerTo me, that's what you've become. Every thread is now an opportunity to tell everyone about prepaid legal stuff and your financing schemes. Frankly, I'm tired of reading about it.
*well, boss, u no the old tried & tru solution to that 1....hey, ron.. it's gettin close to february.. think we oughta draw straws and pick up flammin teams...season will be upon us before we no it.. man.. if i was captain.. i'd sure want 1st dibs on fusco & aj... can you imagine both of them on the same bench ?
*Yes - I imagine a more testy bench than the Lakers, with Kobe and Shaq's problems. Of course, they did manage to beat my Sixers last year, so their quarrelling can be put aside.I guess I'll just have to see what the Iggles can do in St. Louie...
*Hey Ron, when you see my name, ignore meblue
*James, how many builders/homeowners went through that same seminar with you?I realize that a letter or phone call from an attorrney is just a threat, but it's not necessarily an idle one. We all know that if monies are legally owed, the costs associated with the collection is part of the costs of the debt. If the builder or homeowner isn't sure of their legal standing, they might very well cave in and send the check. If it's a simple labor issue ie: wages, then the labor board is the way to go. I've done that twice in my career myself. It works. Since you've never received a letter from lawyer demanding payment, you don't really understand the feeling. I know I have and immediately re-checked my legal position. They definitly make my eyes open wide!You are right about lawyers doing nothing without charging a lot. Except in the case of using a pre paid system. In that system, they would do the minimum (consultation/letter/phone call), for free, then recommend the next step if that didn't work. It might very well include retainers, just like any lawyer would, but at least you'd have the preliminary stuff done for less than $400. That's the idea behind preventative legal services, which I highly recomend, despite Ron's objection. blue
*Gerard,You have yet to tell the forum whether you did this through your boss ( with his O.K ) or you did this on your own thinking you were getting the boss more work, there is a difference. I won't get into ( on the side ).
*THAT'S THE KIND OF STATEMENT THAT YOU USED TO KNOCK RK'S SOCKS OFF FOR!Thomas
*Wow!I'm going to try to respond to everyone's input, all at once. To make sense of my responses, you'll need to refer back to each other's input. I should also add that the "owner" in this case is not neccessarily the owner but a real estate agent whose commission (sp?) is dependent on having this work finished.1) Calvin: Yes, boss was billing it out. We two hangers were subs to him. We went 3 times to the site; first to estimate it, second to start the job, whence we returned to our main site and told the boss that the new site was not ready. He called the "owner" who had someone go over and clean up, and that person was to also finish the strapping. Our boss agreed with owner, then, that any neccessary strapping could be done by us on a T&M basis. Third trip to site we are met by the owner, look around and lo and behold the place is clean, but no more strapping up than before, which I point out. At which point I make the offer to the owner that we can provide this, billing it through our boss on a T&M basis. Owner says that will work for him, and when can we get started.Tommy B:How do you expect someone to react when you tell lthem you aren't going to pay?Andy L:Thank you. And; Our agreement with the owner was that he'd pay for strapping @ T&M when were done with that part. Then we'd go on to the contract part, the hanging. When the strapping part was done, our boss told us that the owner had told him he'd pay for the entire thing when it was all finished. Frankly, I think I should have walked right then.RonTeti: Who do I talk to to get a mechanic's lien going? I doubt I'll ever see my money, but (unless I find out I actually did screw up), I want to make this owner's life a living hell. Note the bit about the owner being a realtor...if I do a mechanic's lien, does it screw him or his buyer?Pro-Dek:My description of the whole thing was way too brief to do justice to it. Everyone involved, to my knowledge, knew about the T&M-for-strapping part of the deal and was o.k. with it...before we started it. See my response to Calvin, above, for clarity.Rich:Absolutely, you bet.Luka:Hunh? Please clarify. Perhaps you meant to say I should be looking for another boss? James DuHamel:Your paragraph #1 had very good points... as to paragraph #2, absolutely not. We had the boss' "pre-o.k." to take on any strapping/framiing on a T&M basis,if it was needed. I try to be clear about who is working for whom, so no, I did not try to pull a fast one. Why would I bother? Why did you say the owner got screwed? I don't understand...the site was in no shape whatsoever to be drywalled when we arrived, and was in decent shape to be taped when we left. (With one exception, which I must state to be fair: we put greenboard on a shower ceiling which the owner wanted done in Durock for tiling. Unable to reach the owner by phone, we then got hold of a subordinate (who was working on another floor). He told us they usually put green board up on ceilings. So we did. We made a judgement call which turned out to be incorrect. I believe that what we did there was done in good faith. No one called on us to correct this, and, frankly, I'd have done so. Why wouldn't I want it to be correct?)Blue Eyed Devil:Why would I be asking you8 guys for advice if I could afford pre-paid legal insurance? Also, curious: You dislike builders, but I take it you are one. What gives?Geoff B.:O.K., I can see paying the tapers for hanging the sheets they hung...at the same rate we got for the job, not at the 30 an hour the owner is bitching about. (By the way...100 sheets for 600 bucks, 63 of those on a sloped ceiling inside a hip roof attic.) By your logic, I should also get the money that was going to the carpenters for finishing their framing and strapping. What do you think?
*Sean:The boss got the job, we subbed it (as opposed to working on it as employees) through him. He was aware of its existence, and, if I understand everything correctly, who was to get paid how much for doing what. And when.
*Gerard, in response to your question,If someone told me they weren't going to pay, I would respond with, " Is there something you are unhapppy with? "
*Gerard,Yes, I was saying, and still am, that if your 'boss' made the arrangements, and told you that you would be getting paid for it, and is now telling you that you might not get paid for it.... maybe it's time to look for a new 'boss'.
*Gerard, you should be pursuing "the boss" for the money. He's the one you had an agreement with, and he's the one that owes you the money. He's the one that was going to make a "profit". He should be paying you, even if it means that he's taking a loss. Then, it's up to him to go after the homeowner.Now, lets talk about protecting your rights to collect. Since you are asking here, you evidently aren't sure of the process. We probably don't either. We do know for sure that time is of the essence. Don't wait.You mentioned that you couldn't afford an attorney. I think most of us fall into that category. It doesn't usually make sense to run to an atty that might charge you $200 per hour, to collect a $400 dollar bill. There is a legal insurance product that solves that issue for you. I am using that service right now. I would be able to have an attorney, experienced in collections, make a phone contact, or send a letter, free with a monthly membership fee of $25 (maybe less in some states). If I elaborate more, I'll be accused of spamming. Email me at [email protected] for details. Don't try to contact me through the taunton email because they are using an obsolete address that died two years ago. I can't seem to get it fixed.My "included" attorney services would include phone consultations about how, why, when, and where to file the necessary lien paperwork in all of North America. Find a service like that fast, in your area (they are there somewhere) or hustle yourself off to law school. The longer you wait, the more difficult it is to collect.Incidently, the labor board won't help you because you are self employed.Keep good books, get a good accountant and reap the benefits of big business deductions!good luck.blue
*this is for "Commercial" work but might be a place to starthttp://www.kwik-net.com/lien-st.htm
*Gerard- You got it. You contracted to do a job the carpenters didn't do. So yes you are getting money for a job they did not do. Now if they got paid to do it thats none of your concern, it's between the builder and the carpenters. The reason you should all get together is to hash out what's fair. If left up to the builder he would not pay anyone.
*I was lucky, I guess, in that in 14 years I only had one client deliberately try to get out of paying. I tried the legal route with no luck, then I tried the illegal route and got a certified check 24 hours later.What I can't understand with these arseholes is they don't know you at all and they try to rob you? It's like going up to a stranger and smacking him one -- you don't know how he's going to react.
*What was the illegal route. You dont have to come out and tell us but perhaps you can drop some hints and innuendos?
*A very private meeting at which the consequences of non-payment, insofar as they related to his health, property and family, were discussed with him by a rather large gentleman of my aquaintance.He had calculated that by I'd be discouraged by the time and money it would take to bring it to court.
*Be careful about the strong-arm route. The customer may have a bigger friend, and once he's been threatened he may just have his friend strike rather than give notice. The other alternative is the police, who don't take kindly to this either.SHG
*What strong-arm route?
*Your beef is with your boss and thats all. Its honerable you are trying to get his money , but his check should be in your account at this point. Does he share his profits with you? I think not. The answer is to take your boss to small claims court.....I dont like that answer either . But you are a sub working for a sub. You dont have a legal action with the owner, or the builder in my opinion.
*Yes and No.The purpose of a lien is to be sure that people get paid.Since the lien is against the property, it is the property owner who may get caught in the middle, but that is the way it works.
*I've been staying away from the lien stuff here, because there is too much involved to post anything particularly helpful. But, be aware of one thing: If you file a lien and are wrong, you can be liable for damages to the owner for losses caused by the lien. Filing a lien is not without risk. SHG
*A lien is only the first step... next one has to file a law suit. Then you have to win and get past any appeals.. then you have to find assetts and go out and take them.Best to have happy endings and stay away from lawsuits.near the stream,ajBlue...RK...What the F@@#??? You mention prepaid legal one more time and I'm personally gonna fly out to your computerside and whack yaa with your keyboard so hard that you won't be able to dial in to your stinkin legal service!!!Grow up old man and get with the no advertising at Breaktime program. b We don't want to here it anymore!Blah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahBlah blah blah.... blah blah blahnear the frickin RKturnedblue stream,ajps...luv yaa buddy... juuust clean up yuuurr act kid!
*Co-captains!!!And we have cheer leaders too!near the warm stream thinkin we may miss out on the anual event this year Mikey...whud do yaa tink..posseeble?near the stream where we just had a nationwide broadcast of waterskiing on the lake,aj
*u may be rite....i'm not sure i want to invest the emotional capital in a good flame-fest..and half-hearted efforts sure ain't worth it...but , i have picked up a few techniques over the years on how to piss people off...
*Aj, please don't burst your head if rk and whoever and I want to discuss something. No ones advertising anything.I don't like skiing. When you yap about skiing, I just ignore it. Go grab a beer.Keep in mind that legal insurance is a business tool. It's a particularly useful tool to contractors. I know, I've been one. I also know because the questions asked indicate a need for it. Since you are so set against insurance, why don't you drop your auto, home, life, and health insurance?Oh yeah, your Blahs are weak. They're poorly organized. No style at all. blue
*I am not selling skiing, but sure hope it dumps soon as next week we all go to trailside in Northern VT for a week of zipping down mountains on the white stuff.near the stream watching the snow fly right now,ajand you're right bout the blahs... no one can blah like the master blahher blue.
*Is this where we get the term 'Blue Blahs" from ?
*Blue,Am I to understand that there is actually insurance you can purchase that will provide you with legal service? I wasn't aware of that.AJ,So, your breakin out the skinny boards to slide on the white stuff, huh? Fill us in on your plans.You guys are killing me. I am laughing my as off.Keep it up.Reminds me of that movie "grumpy old men" .More please.
*Tommy, I wasn't aware of it either until recently. I wish I had known about it about 20 years ago...It would be more correctly called and HMO of legal service. I'll email you. I don't want to start AJ whining again....blue
*I agree with the honourable Sir James.You work for your boss,not Harry Homeowner.By the way, tell you're boss eleven words,C-H-A-N-G-E O-R-D-E-R.
*:-)brian