Collecting on Judgements, How’s it done?
Hudson Valley Carpenter
| Posted in Business on
Here’s a few questions that my sister and I have been mulling over, relating to pursuing collection of an old judgement she has against a former tenant:
1. How do people get away with not paying their judgments?
2. Do they have to have declared bankruptcy or just prove they have no attachable assets?
3. If they put their assets in banks outside of the country, say Aruba, are the assets untouchable?
4. How can they function financially inside the country without banks, credit, and traceable records?
5. What kinds of records are accessible to a PI that are not to Joe Citizen?
6. If 75-80% of judgments go unpaid, what do the other 20-25% look like?
7. What will it take to collect a judgment when
locating the man is no guarantee of restitution?
Thanks for any information and advice you can offer,
Peter
Replies
1. They simply don't pay them. You gotta figure out how to collect somehow, and often your hands are tied in terms of which assets you can attach, and how easily you can liquidate them to recover your money.
5. From what I understand, in most states the only advantage a PI has is he knows who to bribe to get info under the table.
"2. Do they have to have declared bankruptcy or just prove they have no attachable assets?"
No, you have to prove that they have attachable assests.
But they can "declare" bankruptcy all that they want. The debt needs to released by the court. And, if questions they need to show that they declared that specific debt. And I am not sure, but also show that you where notified, directly or indirectly (public notice).
If the did not declare the debt they can be in deep do-do.
"3. If they put their assets in banks outside of the country, say Aruba, are the assets untouchable?"
Maybe, maybe not. But most likely it will at least make it difficult (spelled EXPENSIVE).
"4. How can they function financially inside the country without banks, credit, and traceable records?"
Cash.
"7. What will it take to collect a judgment when
locating the man is no guarantee of restitution?"
Cousin Viny.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
you can buy judgements for about 5cents on the dollar... if that tells you anything...
Your chance of collecting on most judgements is slim IF the people really don't want to pay...
there is a huge population of people who have no bank accounts... and no income you can prove... or attach if you can... happens all the time... so they might pay $10 to get a $500 check cashed... that has zero deducted out of it?... go figure
p
GUIDO
:)
YOU............ahve to very aggresively track down the person the Judgement is against and then use every Avenue available to you threu the system to collect.
ANd if that Judgement is small? Like under $2000? It's probably not going to be worth it.
Almost forgot..........
They don't have to function without financial institutions. They can have all the money in the world right there in the bank downtown.
You have to find a way to get it. The bank? Mostly won't care unless it's a considerable judgement.
Thanks Gentlemen,
I appreciate your help. I've copied your posts and Emailed them to my sister.
Peter
Hudson Other option is to turn it over to a collection agency for 40/60 or 50 /50. They know how to find people, at least you can be satisfied they will make the persons life misserable till they pay.We just turned over two judgements to one agency. Note in some state you do not need a judgement to collect back rent, it is the same as collecting on a doctors bill services were rendered you should be paid, the services in a rental are shelter. But agency's know how to find people and attach their property accounts wages etc.
Sounds good Wally! Please tell me how that works. Does the collection agency deduct for expenses?
Edited 9/17/2009 3:51 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I have been granted about 10 judgements in the 25 plus years I have rented property. I have only collected on one that the tenant was clearing up his credit to buy a house and the bank would not lend him the money until the judgement was released.
I put a lot of them with collection agency, nut never collected a dime.
Thanks Vince, That's the kind of shared experience which could save my sister some time and aggravation.
That is why I get renters out quick . Its a good day to move today. Ill be back with a trailer and you can load it . I leave the trailer backed against the front door . Such things as that . I knock on the door every morning and evening and tell them to get out after 5 days late . I talk to their kids in the yard and tell them and the other kids on the street . I dont have any respect for someone that doesnt pay rent and wont move.
Tim
Tim,
So you're sayin' that you push delinquent tenants to move rather than get them evicted?
Just curious because in my local area evictions are usually granted to a landlord immediately, when he/she goes to the town court with the rental agreement. That means the Sheriff will serve the eviction notice the next day, for a small fee.
Is justice that swift in your county? Or do you just prefer to get them out yourself?
Edit: Just read you last post. Gotcha.
Edited 9/17/2009 10:53 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
My sheriff will stand there with a court order but he is not moving anyone . If they dont move they go to jail. Whole process takes about 30 days and grief. Damages can happen.
I try to shave 25 days off it . Let the judge fine me 50 bucks and Ill have 600 in my pocket . Ive never been fined . So if you take the averages its its really really good . Even if my friend had paid the 400 dollars that one time it would be cheap. Hes probably done it 500 times. Thats the way I look at it . Ive turned off their power and water . Ive threatened different things . Ive changed locks . Parking a trailer against the front door sends a message as well. Ive always wanted to take the front door off . Ive moved them in the day time while they were at work and changed the locks . That really depends on how much stuff they have . I can normally shut the door on the trailer in a couple hours. Thats all illegal but effective and I dont try to go get judgements after waiting 30 days for evictions. 15 years ago Id just whup their arse if they didnt move and they all moved except one lady. I told her I didnt think she would want to be there two more weeks . I told her how important it was to be healthy enough to take care of her babies. She left during the night . The sherriff came to see me over it and that was it .
My damages are physical. Ive got a house right now with 5 doors with fists through them and cabinet doors ripped off . Last house the carpet was ruined . Faucets were ripped off . I just roll up my sleeves and go to work. I dont go to court . Im supposed to check on every house every thirty days and do a walk through while changing the filter . If I do it I get a good idea whats goin on. I can smell a dog or cat when I open the door . I dont have to see it . The time to evict is right that minute.
Prevention, not court action.
Prevention, not court action.
I like your method...very simple and direct. Move their stuff and change the locks while they're away from home.
Reminds of when I got my car towed for parking illegally. Didn't matter that the sign was hidden by a small tree. The car disappeared while I was away. Had to find the impound yard and bail it out. $$$
It's worth noting that collection agencies have no teeth. If you are a debtor, you just tell them in writing to stop contacting you, and they must comply.The details are in section 805c of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act:-------
Section c) CEASING COMMUNICATION.--If a consumer notifies a debt collector in writing that the consumer refuses to pay a debt or that the consumer wishes the debt collector to cease further communication with the consumer, the debt collector shall not communicate further with the consumer with respect to such debt, except--(1) to advise the consumer that the debt collector's further efforts are being terminated;(2) to notify the consumer that the debt collector or creditor may invoke specified remedies which are ordinarily invoked by such debt collector or creditor; or(3) where applicable, to notify the consumer that the debt collector or creditor intends to invoke a specified remedy.If such notice from the consumer is made by mail, notification shall be complete upon receipt.
Glatt All that means is that they must stop communicating with you that is it.I does not mean they can't still attach real property, garnish wages etc.They can still contact you to "to notify the consumer that the debt collector or creditor may invoke specified remedies" Remedies are garnishments, leins, etc.Do you really think writing an agency and saying stop calling and mailing me stuff lets you off the hook if it were that easy no one would ever file bankruptcy.They would just mail letters out. As I read it it only prevents that agency from contacting you they sell the judgement to another and it starts all over.
Edited 9/18/2009 1:00 am by wallyo
Their expenses come from what there share is, the agency we signed with they get 40% not going to court 50% if they need to go to court. Again they probably will not recover, but the
point is they know the law and how far they can push it. And even if they don't recover, you have some satisfaction knowing someone is bugging the person that bugged you.As Mooney said things happen and people do change, they want to get a decent job or a house and can't because of a judgement so they clear it up 5 years later.As I write this we may or may not go to court today, a tenant did not pay in two months,
she was half out last night I need to go up and see that she is out and call the lawyer so he can call the court clerk. We are probably out 1200 one months rent and lawyer fees we have
a security deposit of 550 which covers the other month provide she does not tear things up.Wallyo
Wally, would you please give me the name of that collection agency?
Have you ever offered to settle a judgement with a former tenant for 50%, before giving it to a collection agency?
HudsonThe one we use is local in Idaho only Action Collection.No never settled for 50 before going to one, to tell you the truth it is only in the last three years that we have had a problem with people paying. Until recent people would just leave, when we told them to and we would have the security deposit to cover the month they had not paid and damages would be limited to wear and tear. It is only now that they don't pay and linger on after giving them a pay or quit notice.I would have your sister if you have a current address for the dead beats write and send a certified letter outlining the costs and what they owe and if you don't hear from them you will turn it over to collections in x days. May have to check what x days is some states might have a min. Some states might require a demand letter be sent before a collection agency can step in. Here the rules on that are lax.The AG's office in her state can guide her they may have a tenant landlord rule book.The other item we turned over was a judgement against an electrican on an abandoned job, you may of run across my other posts where I mention that one but we have about 3000 on him, so we turned that one over to collections.Got to go see if she is out. then get some real work done.Wallyo
Thanks Wallyo,
I hadn't thought about calling the state AG's office, to see what can be done through them or what advice they might have.
I remember a pool company I used to sub installations from, that would pull out all the stops to resolve problems when the state AG's office got involved. Apparently the AG can put a hurtin' on 'em, one way or another.
The pool company's owner never asked me for a price on a repair when the AG called, he just wanted my crew to take care of it, like immediately.
No current information on that tenant, just some suspicions about his whereabouts and employment. I did a county records search, including real estate holdings, and found only the judgement I mentioned.
The crux of collecting seems to be finding liquid assets, principally bank accounts or vehicles. It seems to me that once a judgement is obtained, the person holding the judgement should be able to access that kind of information.
Not to state the obvious but in CT, you look up a sheriff in the phone book, give him the judgement and he checks all local banks for assets, and will go their home and place of business to seize what he can to satisfy the judgment. They charge a fee for this which is set by statute and added to the amount due.
PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
I built a house for a couple who later split up. He still has the house and she is gone. He lives very frugally now, but seems able to pay me when I do work for him.
But I notice that the checks always come from an account that bears his sister's name, in New Jersey. He is Italian, and family is important pat of their lifestyl;e.
This may hint at one possible means of hiding assests.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
He ain't just hiding assets, New York Italians always took the bodies to New Jersey.
Well, I heard she is still alive, somewhere in Alaska...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Im gonna answer off your first post and then Ill read the thread.
I asked about rental judgements from a friend in town that has a 100 units.
He told me I would make more money breaking the law than getting money off judgements . He said you can go after every person that sings a do a landlord wrong song and you might make a dollar per hour for your efforts. This is the very reason he has no respect for the law .
He moved a renters stuff out while they were at work into a storage building for no pay. The renter got a judgement against him. He told me they dont pay me , Im not paying this judgement . He never did . He told me he has been waiting for the law to come after 410.00 but after 10 years he doesnt figgure they ever will. He had planned on telling the judge when he got paid for his judgements he would be happy to pay that one . Doesnt look like its ever going to be a chance .
I dont go after judgements period . I just fix it and move on.
The key word to this problem is" prevention "not court.
Process varies from state to state. To really hide money in Aruba is a complicated, expensive process, typically done by rich folks who have a lot to protect. For most people, ignoring the judgment works pretty well. If the guys owns RE, you can levy on the property and sell it. Even if all you do is levy (which creates an encumbrance, like a mechanics lien or mortgage) he can't sell the property because he can't give clear title.
In MA and some other states, you can bring the guy to court and have him examined in front of a judge as to his assets and ability to pay. The judge can order him to pay so much per month.
In MA and some other states, you can bring the guy to court and have him examined in front of a judge as to his assets and ability to pay. The judge can order him to pay so much per month.
I like that method but of course it requires finding him, getting him served and into court. This tenant was served for the judgement proceeding and didn't show up, so it's a good bet that he'd lay low again.