My son has asked me to help him install six round columns for a front porch on an old victorian in Tacoma.
I have never done this before and am wondering what is the best way to secure the columns top and bottom.
1. Do you install round pieces of 3/4″ plywood top and bottom and jack the porch up 1 1/2″ higher till you can slide the support columns in?
2. How do you fasten the rail to the columns? Do you just pre-drill and screw into the fiberglass?
This will be fun……………………….
“Rather be a hammer than a nail”
Bob
Replies
I just did this, so I might be able to help with the first half of your question:
Assuming you don't need to provide uplift resistance, then I think your method of lifting the porch and sliding plywood disks in is perfect. I modified that slightly - I cut equilateral triangles instead of circles - they provide as much lateral resistance, are MUCH easier to cut, and MUCH easier to adjust to fit inside the columns (secret: cut each side of the triangle to the square root of 3 times the radius of the inside of the column). Once cut (slightly oversized), test fit each piece on the actual column, actual end where it goes (because I found a lot of variation in these dimensions on my columns). Buzz off the tips of the triangle until you get a good fit - don't kill yourself making it too tight because that will just make installation harder. I located the top center, screwed it in, dropped a plumb line to locate the bottom and screwed it in. I used 1/2 in PT plywood, and had to lift the porch about an inch to get the column in.
(Don't forget to slide the decorative caps and bases on before installing the columns. You can then screw them in to the beam and deck to further secure things)
(I was using the poly/fiberglass/rosin/marble dust hollow structural columns)
In case your porch is not level (I designed in a 1" pitch over 10' on mine), you might want to scribe the bottom of the column at this point, lift the roof, take it out, and cut it to sit flush on the porch. Don't forget a registration mark to get it back where it was.
Now I'll shut up to let others solve the railing attachment problem - I haven't quite got there yet, and don't know what I'm going to do. I am going to wrap the bottom 30" of my columns in a newel box (to reproduce the original look), so I'll attach the railings to that ... somehow. Manufacturer of mine (Chadsworth's) says you can't screw into the columns - through bolts are ok though).
Good luck .... Bill.
Thanks Bill, for the quick response and for the help.............Guys on the east coast probably do this more often than the contemporary left coasters.
The 1/2" plywood triangle is a great tip............there's a guy with a handle on this forum "caulk is not trim" and I was not going to rely on caulk to hold these columns in place..............
I'll post pictures when we do this so you guys can critique us"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Actually gravity will do a pretty good job holding things in place - you'd have to get a pretty good running start to knock one of these out once the weight of the roof is on it. The triangles give you an added measure of security, but also help you align everything, and they're easy enough to do (it's funny how the things I expect to be the hardest often are the easiest - I was dreading 'column installation' day, and it turned out to be quick and easy). On the other hand, 'painting the lattice' day has turned into a nightmare ... but that's another thread I have to update soon ...
I didn't address uplift resistance - if you're in a high wind area, you might want to give it some thought (although I have no advice to offer). But once the caps and bases are screwed down, the roof would have to lift about 6-8 inches for the columns to be able to jump out of position.
Bill.
I just installed 16 poly fiberglass rosin columns on a house.
My only bit of advice if this is what youre using......don't drop one in the "slightest"....they break faster than you can blink an eye....ugh.
They're very heavy and I was doing it alone. One became unbalanced in my arms while carrying it...the edge barely touched the driveway and it cracked into five trillion pieces..........other than that I think they look great and seem real solid when up.
Be $100 poorer
andy
My life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
That's why I was asking about drilling into them to attach railing. I would hate to see a hairline crack start working its way up the column.
Sixteen? Why don't you just come over here and help us install these things and I'll help you with that deck................"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
for what it's worth ... I didn't try to lug these alone - had a helper at all times.
I had to put each one in twice - once to scribe, take it out, cut it, install again. Oh, and once more because I forgot to put the cap and base on every $%^ time.
We handled them reasonably carefully, but not that carefully. It was the coldest day of December, as I recall, so probably worst case scenario. None broke. Maybe we just got lucky.
Cut 'em with a carbide blade - no probs other than the smell/dust.
Bill.
And I did em' all which included taking down the rotted ones in three days alone.
Its pretty easy actually.
Buy those $5 carbide blades to cut them.
Doesnt even have to be all that perfect of a cut because you have the cap to cover the indifferences.
Add shims where necessary to tighten them up and silconized caulk to keep em' sealed.
The ones I did werent bearing any loads.
they look great, felt super solid, and ..........did I say looked great?
PS.........I'm surprised youre not building them.
All the gorgous work you do. Not too much time, huh?
BE well erected ;)~
andyMy life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
One other thing.........I wouldn't feel comfortable drilling into them to attach railings cause its just a guess, but if someone sits on the railings...........ugh.
Another suggestion: When you cut them down use the scrap as a test piece to see how you think pressure on them works for railings drilled into and attached.
Its probably fine.
One other thought.......maybe use some sort of rubber insert to put the bolts or whatever you use into them to help with any shock, vibration, movement.
OK, I'm done thinking for the night.
aMy life is my passion!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hi Bob,
I've lost count how many. Enough to have made a couple mistakes.
The manufacturer will have included some very specific instructions for their particular product, so if you can find out ahead of time what brand name, you can get the PDF installation sheets online, more than likely.
for bottoms, I agree that a plywood insert is the way to go. Make it 3/4"PT. I like the triangle idea, It will save a lot of time on my next one. You do want to allow some sort of weep hole or slot, either in bottom of colomn or through deck. using a grinder, or belt sander helps with that bottom scribe work to make it stand plumb.
Most of the manu instructions have relied on gravity to anchor the top position but that doesn't work well for me. Too often, if you have four columns arrayed under a beam, two will hold the weight and two will be afloat. It is like trying to saw the leg offf a table to make it stand level. Adjust three right and another one is always loose.
Another problem is with water. if these are laid out in the way of the ancients, the capitals will protrude into the weather and the supporting column will seat directly under the head beam. when I use wood columns, that means that there must be a weather shield to keep rain from running down within the hollow.
So, to solve both problems, I have the sheet metal guy make up trim caps for over the capital. He has three sides hemmed down a half inch and the fourth side is for inseertion. I locate it in place attached to the beam. Then I place the foot of the column and slide the top in place ( You do realize that I'm talking about a porch roof that is already built and supported by temporaries or jacks) After the top is fitted there, I can work the tip of a cedar between the column top and the copper capital cap enough to make it snug.
After adjusting all the columns to have equal loading, I cut the excess ceadr off, and bend down the hem of the flashing to hide the shim. That 1/2" of metal edge helps hold the tops from tipping 'cause it is screwed up to the head beam.
For attaching railings, that is where you can blow the thing up - well I guess you can break it before that too, according to Andy, but that wasn't one of my mistakes. You need to predrill any attachement points. The instructions I have seen always showed a wing toggle, but I don't like them for a railing that is supposed to handle 250# of lateral force. I use the plastic insert zip anchors. The whole idea is not to have too much stress bearing directly on the material. It is like glass, properly installed, It can take a lot of abuse, but let one nail tip focus stress on it and you need a broom to gather the leavings off the floor.
Another thing that I do is to make the end cut of the railing fit the curve of the column. Make a pattern out of a scrap of metal for that and you have it for all the railings. With the rail fitted that way, it won't possibly push out, the anchor attachment is only to help hold it up to proper elevation. add a dabof PL premium and it won't go anyplace. You've got a snug point with the curved cut, a mechanical fastener with the screw/bolt, and a chemical bond with the glue, all three complimenting each other.
If you don't have time to have a the metal guy break up some caps, you could make something up on site easy enough.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Wow Piffin, thanks for all the advise..........
add a dabof PL premium
Now would that be PL "Piffin lock premium"
Does that come with one of those dual caulk guns like the "Piffin Putty?"
Sorry I couldn't resist........... What is PL premium?"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Finest UA construction adhesive you'd like to come across.....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
What is PL premium?
it's what I buy when I say ...
I'm getting some liquid nails ...
same thing ... 'cept much better.
try it .. you'll love it ... especially for decks.
wet .. frozen ... plastic ... it'll stick
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
more on the PL ....
the basement I'm fighting my way out of ...
the plates are treated ... on concrete ... shot in with a short of nails as I could find for the remington gun ... just wanted the tips to pin it till the glue set ... as there's radiant tubes down there ...
Had to move a coupla walls for some on site redesigning ...
really had to break out the big prybar to get them suckers unstuck.
Sometimes I split the glue ... sometime I took the cream of the concrete with it.
Stuff sticks well to PT and concrete!
The walls that stayed ... you could kick till yer legs got tired ... nothing was moving.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I just found a website showing PL Premium
(http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm)
Now all I have to do is find it. I honestly haven't seen it around here but I'll have my favorite lumber yard bring it in.
Thanks Again Guys..........
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Oops- try this http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
hey Pro-Dek
I would imagine I live pretty close to this Victorian and I'll have a big tube of Piffin adhesive for ya - along w/ many small hydraulic lifts if you need to pick something up. I've installed many and the situation tends to dictate which technique to use - all good advice as usual here -don't know that I've seen plumb bob mentioned
I've let in 2X6 material ( w/ much Pifffin adhesive ) corners beveled off and built up in center to fill curvature on inside for blocking for the rails
best buy for very nice product ( fiberglass marble dust Turncraft i think ) might be Millwork Supply couple blocks south of Safeco Field - more I think about it their supplier Johnson Postman here in Tacoma said I could buy them directly from them ( pick up Tacoma - install Tacoma )
8' taper w/ cap & base $ 172 / Eagle only other folks that stock them around here and they are about $ 192
call me at 253 973 6402 look forward to hearing from you John
Thanks John, I think he's picking the columns up at the big orange box......
I'll be going down there tomorrow to give him a hand...I'll give you a buz if I need anything.........This is an old Queen Anne style home in Old Town, not far from where he lives.
A long drive from Issaquah..........."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Thanks Jeff,
I'll have to try some of his magic stuff. So I guess I'll find it in the caulk and glue department ...................Does it come in different colors? These columns will be white."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
It is as close as you will ever come to welding two different construction materials together, but no, it is not a designer clolour choice. It comes out of the tube ugly and gets uglier. Your hands will be black if you get any on you. I did say, just a dab...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Gotcha! If fingers feel sticky do not rub them together.............."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
acetone and rag
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can guarantee your fingers (and everything else in sight, LOL) will feel sticky if you work with this stuff. It does stain the skin black, and it just has to wear off after a week or so. (The label recommends wearing nitrile gloves.) I used a case of the stuff to glue down sleepers to a basement floor slab last fall. You've got about a 25-minute maximum re-adjust time frame. After that, you're looking at some damage if you have to remove the piece. IMERC and Piffin are right--this glue is some serious sh#t. Expensive, but worth it.
Hint: at the end of the day, let a little corkscrew of the stuff drool out of the cartridge onto a piece of scrap ply or something and let it dry overnight. In the AM, break it off and the rest of your tube will be good to go. (Also, the hardened corkscrew makes a great toy for imaginative 5-year-olds....)
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
100% Polyurethane
Water and weather proof.
Bonds to wood, metal, stone, concrete, masonry, bricks, DW,.
Bridges 3/8"
18 months shelf life.
3x's stromger than ordinary adhesives. (here I think they're lying, it's stronger than that)
Made by OSI.
800-624-7767 or
http://www.stickwithpl.com Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I don't think of it as expensive at all. I buy it by the case and charge it out at $4.10/10.5 oz tube. I goes 30% further on subfloors because it expands a bit and flows evenly. Since it is a moisture cure, damp PT doesn't bother.
greatest thing since sliced bread
wish I got royalties on it now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I like the quarts at $5.57.
A little does go a long ways...
Major freezing rain / ice storm today... Geeez...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
We've got one of few decent weather days so far this year and I'm home with the worst cold I've ever had. it woke me up at 3AM couldn't breathe, eyes aflame, head swollen...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Since I really didn't want to bother with painted moulding today, or any other day for that matter, I was set to go fishing.
Too nasty for that even.
West and south doors are frozen shut. (Albaquiqie (sp?) low maybe). The dogs would rather tangle with me than be put out for a few minutes.Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I buy it by the case and my cost price per 300 ml tube is $5.95 (CDN) less 5%. This compares to about $2.95 per 300ml for standard 'construction adhesive', which I never even bother with. If it needs to be glued (except foam boards), I use PL Premium. I don't work for customers that niggle about an extra sixty bucks on a $30,000 job. It ain't worth the frazzled nerves.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Case price for quart tubes is $4.47-TT&T.Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I know your heart was in the right placve Jeff, but comparing PL Premium to Liquid nails is like comparing a one ton GMC truck to a Hyundai POC.
of course tne PL doesn't have the model on the label...
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
PL Premium is the greatest thing since nail guns.
Glued down my advantech as well as the pine wide plank flooring along with nails of course....
I take pride in my blackened hands
BE well
andy"My life is my practice"
I've used PL premium a few times, but not to the extent that you guys have. With all this talk, I start to wonder if it's good enough for decks.
Would you be comfortable using stainless finish nails in Trex or Ipe, with a generous amount of PL premium as the primary bond?
Jon Blakemore
Don't need or want a generous amount. Enough to cover mating surfaces is plenty.
As for primary... I wouldn't think so...
As for decks ... Have at it....
BTW... PLP flashes nicely...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I wouldn't use finish nails on exterior for anything, but trim head stainless ring shank nails partnering with the PL makes a good bond. Look into Correct Deck instead of Trex. Much better.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
here's what to look for on the shelf .....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I've had good results using 16-18 ga. air finishers to nail on rough-cut siding, like shiplap or board-and-batten. I have to use 1 extra nail for nominal 6" and 2 extra for nominal 8", but they go on so much faster than hand-nailing the old oval headers it's not even a close contest. Wouldn't use them on a deck, though. Not beefy enough for that kind of abuse.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I'm not trying to stir things up here, but if like you said "it's the closest thing to welding two pieces together", why not use if for decks. Surely it would be quicker than using eb-ty, screw and plugs, etc.
I could see you might have problems if your deck board is cupped, but assuming you have stable material (or some way to secure it until the glue sets up) wouldn't it be sufficient?
Jon Blakemore
Trex ( I think that's what you asked about) is not stable material in quite a number of ways. it is subject to thermal expansion, and is flexable. It has a waxy surface that resists adhesion. Add to that the film you find on pT framing under it and you really challenge any adhesive. PLP is great glue but it has to get ahold of the materials being joined first, just like any glue.
Next, you go to your statement that if you had a way of securing it while the glue set up...
So maybe if you clamped each piece in place overnight...that would take a long time to build a deck, wouldn't it?
If you scrape the PT clean, and gouge a rough in the bottom of the trax deck board at the contact point for a mechanical grip, then I might feel safe using it to glue down the deck, maybe. I just don't see the sense of it when it is so easy to go ahead and use trimhead SSring nails .
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I wouldn't be comfortable using Trex, period. Who the heck wants a plastic deck?
Ipe is another story, but I have no personal experience in working with it; it's a bit out of range for the average deck project I deal with--I have to work hard to convince people to pay for cedar most often. On that, I use stainless screws, no glue. Otherwise (ie, SPF or (UGH!!) PT, I nail-gun it with galvanized, clipped-head 2.5-inchers.
I do not use glue in the decking/joist joint because I always top the joists with a strip of 90# felt before nailing (or screwing) on the decking. This coats the nails or screws with enough tar to help retard fastener rust-out, and also self-seals the nail/screw holes to prevent water infiltration at that very critical junction.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
This may be stating the obvious but it is based on experience .Make sure you put braces from the ground to the beam pushing the porch onto the house when you start to jack. I have been chased by Victorian porches that want to leave the house!Secondly make sure the connection to the house is good .I have found many that are secured with a few cut nails crammed into a morter joint.
jako
It sounds like you are using a "perma cast" type column. We install a lot of these.
1. Cut to fit, slide base & cap on column.
2.Plumb column
3. Secure with screws through the capital into framing up top
4. Secure with Tapcon screws through base corners into concrete
The base & cap provide adequate anchoring of the column. There is no consideration for uplift here.