The phone quit ringing 3 weeks ago. Last week I left a day and half early and went out of town figuring sitting staring at the phone made little sense. Came back on Monday to 6 sales calls. I think I will just start working every other week since that seems to spur business.
Anyway, that ain’t the story. A long time client called. Have done a bunch of small jobs, kitchen counters, patio door, new drawer boxes in the kitchen, etc. Always rave reviews and always said they like us and our price. About a month ago I saw another company at their house as I drove by. I did the usual fret and worry about what we had done to not get a call for whatevere was being done.
He calls and wants to know if we could do a few “little things” for them. Now I am curious. I go over today and he has had someone else remodel the bathroom. (the biggest part of our business) Never even gave us a call.
But………..they can’t caulk. The caulk around the tub looks like
and is the wrong color.&
#160; He finally fesses up that he stopped the guy from continueing. And since we did such a nice job when we installed the kitchen counter could we please come out and re-do this bad job?
Oh, and hang a door here. And finish the trim they didn’t get done?
I was trying to figure out what to say or do when my brother come in from a job. I tell him the story. He says “if we have time for it price it cheap so we get it, I will go over and do a great job. You know he likes to hang out when we do work there so I’ll tell him how we do stuff so much better and how he got ripped off so he feels like sh#t”.
It is tempting. It is equally as tempting to tell him to go pound sand. DanT
Replies
Yeah, I would love to tell a cust to pound sand too in that case, but that doesn't get you call backs. I'll have to agree w/ your brother. He is already eating crow calling you in in the first place. But as much of a smart #### as i am, I would make him feel the pain. Don't bid it cheap though. Bid it for the PITA that it is.
"It is what it is."
I can't imagine going over there to finish up, at a low rate, just to remind the guy how good your work is.
I'd do the job, but only for a minimum charge of one full day at full hourly rate, portal to portal, plus a surcharge for anything I could think of.
I've been through similar games with people who should've known better and I've made it clear that I expected to be shown proper respect in the future, for doing my work in a timely and professional manner. I've said it quietly but directly.
In most cases the relationship was soon back on track and very friendly. In a few others, they were offended and embarrassed so they didn't call me again. So what? I spoke up for myself and have no regrets, only a feeling of freedom, that I've risen above petty political manuvers by speaking the truth.
I agree with you. That would be the most expensive caulk and door hanging day I would have ever had.
Edited 7/31/2008 8:31 pm ET by MSA1
Titillating post/
Love it when I get to clean up after the idiots! They did all the hard work and I get to claim th e credits and the profits.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Hmmm, good point of view. Hadn't thought of it in that manner. Thanks! DanT
<Love it when I get to clean up after the idiots! They did all the hard work and I get to claim the credit>
I got to do that yesterday ; stayed home in the shop to rebuild and reseal a one-off $3k LED parking lot light prototype that I had inherited. 100 LEDs; 32,000+ lumens from less than 2A on 277 volts.
View Image
"A bad design, assembled incorrectly with faulty parts", was how my report read!
Got it put up a pole today, survived the storms just fine.
Forrest - seeing little green spots over everything
Edited 7/31/2008 8:39 pm ET by McDesign
You know, My brothers FIL pulls me to the side at a party and tells me about the crappy bathroom remod he just had done (I too live off bath remods).
The whole conversation he's telling me about flaws and then blaming the flaws on "the crappy unlevel house he lives in". I've been in disasters and made them look great, he just hired schmucks.
Then two weeks ago my BIL's water heater goes, he calls my heat guy.
Unbelieveable!
"Then two weeks ago my BIL's water heater goes, he calls my heat guy."
Yeah, the day I saw the guy that did this bath at their house I also passed a "friend of the family" who we had done work for and he had someone else at his house. Then called me when his sump pump croaked and his new guy couldn't make it. Then wanted to go out to eat to "catch up". Wonder if we would chat about all the work his new guy did or what lol. Oh well. Guess it keeps you humble. DanT
I'd do it at the regular rate. People aren't as loyal as you want them to be I guess. I don't know if it's human nature or not but people just change contractors once in a while.
I wonder if the last guy or two you sent over might have annoyed him in some way. Whistled too much or something. It doesn't take much.
I'm moving to the country, I'm gonna eat a lot of Peaches. Aug. 8,9,10th Follow me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19McuaPKjI8
Good point. I've had three of my regular contractor customers try someone else for a job or two lately. They're looking for a better price and I can't blame them for that. But, it hasn't worked out (we're fixing two jobs done by others - my regular price) and they've all come back to daddy. They'll wander again in a year or two and they may find someone more tuned in than us to their needs. But maybe not.http://grantlogan.net
.......nature abhors a vacuum cleaner.....
I learned that in the world of railroad contracting. No matter what your performance or price they will just dump you every couple of years. No hard feelings. They will use the other guy for a year then hire you back.
I'm moving to the country, I'm gonna eat a lot of Peaches. Aug. 8,9,10th Follow me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19McuaPKjI8
That happens at Breaktime too.
People disappear for a while, then they pop back up again. Just is what it is.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your right. I wonder though. Has anyone ever came back after an absence and started asking how to fix stuff that he's screwed up based on advice he's gotten on another board? That would be a good one. LOL
I'm moving to the country, I'm gonna eat a lot of Peaches. Aug. 8,9,10th Follow me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19McuaPKjI8
LOL, Journeyman Carpenter has come close to that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I had that happen within my first year as a roofing sub.
a builder who had a house for me every week or two came up with one that was steeper and way more cut up. Told him that this one will cost more per square. He blew his top crying that since this one was to be his own personal house we ought to charge him less even tho it would take longer.I stood my ground, not wanting to work an extra day for free.
He paid up on that one but then mysteriously had no houses ready for me to roof for several weeks. Finally he called again.The carpenters on that one told me that he'd had another shingler but that the guy screwed up and made the job look really bad on a couple, making me look like a bargain.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Give him a fair price+ 10%.
If he knows you added 10% tell him the cost of doing business has gone up (fuel, insurance, etc)
Then, directly ask him why he did not call you for the job!
No games, no guessing, no upset. Just ask the question!
"Hey, I gotta tell you I was real surprised to see another contractor here when I drove by last month and I have been fretting about it. I assumed I had did something wrong and you chose to use someone else for the next job. But now that I am here again, I am wondering why you did not give me an opportunity to price this job for you? "
Then shut up and listen!!!
If you handle it right, he not only will be a loyal customer for life for all his projects but he will likely feel bad enough to make sure he tells some friends about you so he can make up for his sin.
I gotta agree with Jeff. Ask him directly why you weren't thought about when the bath remodel came up. Maybe they didn't know you did that type of work.
Either way he gets charged full price and them some to finish off somebody's work.
Yep yep
Talk straight and I always charge more to fix other peoples work. I am sick of it too, to tell the truth.
I want those big $100K-$300K renovations. Not the cleanup work!!
Trust me. Those have plenty of headaches too. The nice thing about the small work is that one man can do the job or fix some problems pretty easily. If you have ten crappy subs on a $300k job in one day, and you are too busy to be over their shoulder, you could end up with weeks worth of re-work. I don't miss that stuff at all. I don't miss crappy subs either! It's nice to make the rules.
A friend of mine is doing a big remodel now, and doesn't know much about the business. I gave him a list of my subs but he chose to pick some that were cheaper. I looked at it the other day and groaned all the way through.
In the end, someone always pays for cheaper work.
Re. the big jobs:
I have a team of trade contractors who I have been working with for years now. (Some of them 10+) and while I still need to inspect their work, I trust them to come out and complete their job properly. (they usually do)
They can handle anything I throw at them so I can handle the larger jobs. I just need a few more of them.
I agree I like the small jobs too where me and 2 guys go in for a day and get a bunch of work knocked out and I can get paid at the end of 1 or 2 days.
A good mix of both would be perfect!
Last time I was in this setting, I had done a year long whole house renovation for big money.They had a small guest house that I was supposed to start on as soon as the English interior designer got the plans to me.Next thing I know there is another crew working there.
Oh well, I was over committed and overworked that year anyways...So then the next year the owner calls me and wants a few things fixed.
After he shows me the first one ( deck was built with tight T&G painted and at same elevation as the interior floor, but pitched TOWARDS THE DOOR instead of away from the house resulting in a 2" puddle of water that seeped under the door.)and I cheerfully explain what is done wrong and how I would fix it, I say,
"Listen Joe, this looks like a warranty item since they messed up on both design and execution here. I'm curious why you haven't just called them back to take care of it. Seems like that would be less expensive than paying me to fix their work. "He waved me off with "I really don't want to talk about it. Just make it right - I really don't care what it costs, OK?"It was clear from his tone of voice that he had already been through things with them and was smarting over his decision not to use me. I have been his main man ever since.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It is amazing how many crappy contractors are out there. All we need to do is be honest and fair and talk straight with our clients and the good ones will appreciate it. (The rest we probably should not have done business with in the 1st place)
The one client who burned me for money (my Doctor!!) I actually said in the bidding process that they should go out and get other bids and we dont need to work together on this project. They got nicey nice after that and worked thru the contract process real nice. It turned sour at the end and it was probably a $3K + loss.
I still smart over that one!!
I think some of my worst ones were the doctors. Lotta guys hate working for lawyers, but I do fine with most of them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For quite a while I installed irrigation in So. Fla. The worst clients were #1- Doctors, #2- Pilots. Both profession's must have a "I am God 101" course in the beginning of their training.
(My closest friend in my life is a New York Yankee, Jewish Doctor. We laugh about the So. Fla. redneck and the doctor being close. I don't need anyone accusing me of being prejudiced.)
Edited 8/1/2008 8:02 am ET by wdb45
My worst was a shrink.So he only thought he was God every other day, according to which personality he was channeling that day.my interpretation though on most docs is that they get paid late and little most of the time, because of the way the medicare and insurance systems work, so they think that is the way the rest of the world works too, so they pay me late and little.The pilots I have known have been more the flambouyant kinds of personality, skittering around wherever the wind blows and with an attitude that they can pay when they get around to it - a sense of the eventual - like flying, what goes up eventualy must come down, so they know they will pay you eventually, what's the hurry? Meanwhile enjoy it while I'm up.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Man, you hit it right on on both. BTW, my doctor friend is also a private pilot.thanks, wdb
< my worst was a shrink>Anyone who does work for a shrink should have their head examined. :)
I haven't done any jobs for a urologist at least , so they haven't pizzed me off
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 8/1/2008 8:59 am ET by Piffin
The worst I ever had were some snake-oil salesman, so to speak.They were nice throughout the job and gave me free products.Little did I know, it was lubrication for some royal reaming at the end of the job.
Worst or potentially the most dangerous to income and reputation: Lawyers, the underhanded type.
Bad payers; slow to pay or looking for a better deal through their BIL behind your back: Doctors
The guy who wants the inside deal, as if he was your brother. Also the guys who believe they could do the job themselves, with a few pointers: Airline pilots
I now avoid doing business with lawyers altogether because of one bad apple who cost me a lot of time, money and mental energy.
He did it on purpose, after a minor disagreement, just to show me how much power he had over my time and income. It's a lesson that's never far from my mind.
Doctors need to be told what the deal is, in front, very clearly. I explain the terms of the contract before we sign it, briefly telling them how the building business works and why the payment schedule is important to the progess of the job.
That was a good lesson for me to learn because it carried over to every other contract signing I've been involved with. As a result I always get paid on time, with a check that can be cashed immediately.
Airline pilots are mostly OK about paying but they usually expect a special low price because they're minor Gods, doncha know? This approach taught me the value of letting certain clients pay in cash.
Some people, like airline pilots, really get off on back door cash deals so I let them think that I knocked 20% off for them when I actually added something to my usual labor price before whispering about how I was giving them the materials at wholesale because they're paying me in cash.
Small business owners are big on cash deals because they often have some income which isn't traceable. Getting the wholesale price on materials is something they understand and enjoy, so why not add that back onto the labor? They seldom catch on so....one hand washes the other.
Edit: I have to admit that I'm pretty tight about money when it comes to materials. I expect a special price fom a retailer based on the size of my orders and the amount I buy annually.
Retail showrooms and salespeople are for the novice buyer, not the professional tradesperson, so I refuse to be part of a pricing stategy which makes me pay for services I don't need or want.
Edited 8/1/2008 10:05 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Small businesses with hidden cash?Gee I must big a bigger business, eh?;)I was wondering if the pilots you know are the freelancers who regularly fly between Miami and say, uh - oh - Columbia?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wait - I just remembered you are a pilot!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The only place I ever met any shady pilots was when I went to Floria to work as a carpenter, in the winter. That was back in the seventies and eighties.
Not just pilots either. Almost everyone I met who found I out I had a little airplane had a deal for me.
I only flew down to the Caribbean in a private plane once but it was quite an adventure. It seemed like everyone tied to aviation down there was looking over his shoulder, every ten-fifteen seconds.
Edited 8/1/2008 10:20 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"I think some of my worst ones were the doctors. Lotta guys hate working for lawyers, but I do fine with most of them"<!----><!----><!---->
Used to work for someone who was a gc before becoming an architect. His bane was both lawyers and doctors. Had his own horror stories for each.<!----><!---->
My theory is that people don't tend to question either profession, since the area of their expertise is so far removed from an ordinary person’s reality. So clients just tend to automatically do what they say. Which leads to, shall we say, slight superiority issues.<!----><!---->
Good thing designers and builders don’t have that problem <g><!----><!---->
I was raised in NY state. They taught us in school that we were superior to anyone from the other states!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My deal was preachers.
AMEN to that! LOL worst crook i ever worked for was a lying a$$ preacher. and i'm a preachers kid.
"AMEN to that! LOL worst crook i ever worked for was a lying a$$ preacher. and i'm a preachers kid."
I wish you would just share your feelings instead of leaving us in suspense . <G>
All I gotta say is they ask for things to be given to them which is nature of their lifes.
Tim
Ahh We might not agree with what we would do if we found money buried in the walls , but we do agree with the Lawyer thing.
I am on my 3rd project for a lawyer. This one is shrewd but fair and I do enjoy working with him. The only go round was today. Naturally they wanted me to skinny up the proposal as much as possible as they were tight on money. I did. Now that we are ready to paint they want 3 rooms painted 5 different colors.
Ceiling white all ceilings, kitchen walls color 2, diningroom walls color 3 kitchen and morning room trim color 4 and diningroom trim #5. My specs are 2 colors but not real clear on this proposal (my bad but it says nothing so I am safe)
I am charging him $100 for the extra colors (what I am being charged by my painter) and he thinks it is a little chicken sh**. He laughed it off and said it is nbd but he was surprised it cost more. All is well but now I am going back and revamping and having separate spec's for each project seperate from the proposal no matter how small the job.
I have only had 1 bad client and it was a Dr. Thing is I am the son, brother and brother in law of doctors and obviously grew up with the business so I am real familiar with Dr's and their ways. (especially the wacky ones cause I grew up with him) I'm happy working for Attorneys!
I try to expalin things like that in terms of whatever occupation the client is working in.You have to have more paint because of the different colours and have extra steps in cutting in, so in lawyer terms, ask if he can do interviews of extra witnesses and write a few extra reports for the same price as for one.
Or if he is a real estate guy, ask if he can file two deeds for the same price as he can prepare and file one deed for.. After all, it is the same kind of paper and uses more or less the same kind of words
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Good sales techniques. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Good angle.
He gets it. I usually state the facts. They have to buy more gallons of paint and fewer 5 gallon pails of paint and end up having about 5 gallon containers 3/4 full and one full when they are done, instead of having 1 5 gallon container 1/2 empty. It costs money and people dont do stuff for free and survive.
He gets it. With probably 60% of my clients I would not even charge them, but he needed sharp numbers so I cant afford to do anything free. I did tell them that when we were "pencil sharpening" but people forget that part. I skinnied up the job by about $12,000 (probably 50% change of scope and 50% me getting a few concessions and taking a few concessions). I am not trying to get it back, just dont have room to cover the little upgrades which can get annoying.
His wife emailed me last nite,
Jeff, I will pick the colors for the rooms. We want to paint this room this color and etc etc etc.
And please install the tile on diagonal. We decided we like the diagonal look better.
And this is after I had to change the 1 1/2" waste line to 2" because the inspector is "interpreting" the code different than me. (Naturally we needed to cut into the cast iron pipe instead of something easy)
So I nicely mentioned to them that everything they are asking for is an upgrade.
Oh, and by the way, Last week, the "Creative Playthings" dude showed up last week and spent 6 hours installing this redwood or cedar playset in the yard with all the bells and whistles.
I was sitting there today eating lunch looking at the playset (probably $4K) and thinking about the conversation over my $100 extra.
People are funny!!
People are funny...they take it from whomever gives it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
A lot of Doctors and lawyers are so busy they just treat me like someone they have to talk to and the less the better{for roofing}. So there not to bad. Its the real estate people i cant stand.
all they want is a number and will always say thats to much even though they have no idea. although i can put up with a Doctor or lawyer talking down to me i can handle it but to me a real estate person is not in a higher society then me cause they sell RE
"I think some of my worst ones were the doctors."What is it with doctors? When I was selling business telephone systems, doctors offices were the most difficult to work for and they paid slow.BruceT
I know why he did not use you .
you accidently deleted all of your messages on your superduper answering machine
your wife accidently deleted all of your messages on your superduper answering machine.
your cat accidently deleted all or your messages on your superduper answering machine.
or like a lot of people don't know to leave a message so you can understand what he saidtoyoursuperduperansweringmachine
could it be he just did not like your super dupper answering machine and went with some one who acctual answered the phone in person.
Sam, Sam, Sam.
Tsk tsk tsk. You should hang around and read a little longer before your assumptions take over your life.
I have a secretary and am in the office quite a bit. We have a policy of returning all calls within 24 hours or the next business day. Not that we don't miss one occasionally I am sure but we probably get 30% of our business simply because we call back and show up. DanT
whats the " if you get the job ) , i thought he asked you to fix the job up right
the last contractor on the job gets to guarantee the work so why would you want to bid cheap if your the people with the
bidding cheap is like fighting to get a spot on the slippery slope of life
I just got my first one of those...
hacks didn't strip the plaster and hung DW over ...cust. doesn't want ext.jambs.
walls are painted with NO tape or mud @ the cieling, 3/8" gaps???
Blowes cabs are in over 2 layers of lino.+underlay that has to come out for tile.
boxes for pendants over sink are so close to the wall the lights won't hang.
cellar door knob hits the light switch...
ad nauseum...
I think these people are expecting a break, but I aint busting MY hump to fix someone elses #### for peanuts.
they wanted references andall the stuff they should have got from the first guy.
the Proposal is in the mail
10 will get you 100 they don't even call...
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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.
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
I haven't read the other posts yet, but as a homeowner I'd say you shouldn't bid it cheap, but add a surcharge for fixing other people's mistakes. Who cares if the customer is eating crow, your family needs to eat. If you want to make them feel like the jerks they are, you can offer to make up a punchlist for them as a service.
DanT
I swear if the azzhole who did the work at my place didn't work so darn cheap I'd fire him in a nano second.. It seems like I constantly have to clean up after him and he never finishes things on time or on budget..
Not to mention his inefficent use of his time all the while he's on the clock.. He'll drop whatever he's doing and move on to something else.. Sometimes before what he's doing is even done!
I've got to feed and bathe him and let him watch TV occasionally when he should be working.. Plus at a moments notice he drop what he's doing and go apply for work elsewhere..
MY final complaint about him is the work is never perfect! There are always some detail that could have been done better. I really hate it when he tries to be clever about a mistake and covers it up or blends it in rather than tearing the whole thing out and starting all over gain..
Sounds just like my builder.
Bet he never knows how he's going to do something until after it's done, too.
Plus my guy has no experience -- always uses my jobs to learn on :)
Don
DonNH
I just can't seem to find anyone who will work cheaper though!
I'm lucky in that my guy has worked fopr nearly 8 years at this and so far I haven't had to give him a dime!
I do pay all of his expenses though and not only that but his whole family constantly has their hands in my pockets..
Luckily his wife sleeps with me though.....
This story reminds me of Bret Farve.
Mebbe he will give you two million to retire after you did a remarkabkle job but decided he was going with somone else . hmm.
Id be very nice and go fix it right at regualr price you charge and show him you are a man he can depend on in the future . Try to devlope a customer that wouldnt stray off again.
This story reminds me of Bret Farve.
I thought I could a least come on BT without hearing about Favre. It's official, he's everywhere!
This comming from a Packer fan who is getting tired of the whole Favre thing. :)
Doug
Theres talk now about runnning him for president . <G>
Tim
Theres talk now about running him for president
I'm moving to Argentina if he does!
Doug
Theres talk now about runnning him for president . <G>
Now that you mention it, they have a very similar mentality. Except that GB has a hard time completing an intelligible sentence. Shoot, sometimes he get lost before he starts one.
...and make sure you read this post
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=107786.1
Who knows, the home owner may sue you if the tub eventually leaks because it was improperly installed but YOU caulked it.