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Concrete anchoring nails?????

Bob_the_cartoonist | Posted in Construction Techniques on November 19, 2009 11:24am

Please help!  What are the nails that are straight and have a little c-shape bend near the point, that are used to anchor wood to concrete?  I’ve seen Tom Silva talk about them and use them for years.  I’m putting an insulated floor in my workshop, on top of the concrete slab.  First a heavy plastic vapor barrier, then pressure treated 2×2’s with rigid foam boards between, then 3/4″ t&g plywood.  To attach the 2×2’s to the concrete I’m looking for these special nails I’ve seen on This Old House.  You drill a hole through the wood and into the concrete all in one step, then quickly pound this nail in and because of the little c-shaped bend near the end, they hold great!  No screwing Tapcons or power accuated guns.  Fast, simple and HARD TO FIND!  I’ve looked all over the internet and called all the local lumber yards and home centers.  Anybody???

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  1. whitedogstr8leg | Nov 19, 2009 11:31pm | #1

    Until someone else comes along with the "right answer',  you COULD try a trick I used all the time.   Drill your 3/16" hole,  grab a regular "spike" AND a piece of "form wire" the same length as the shank of the nail.  Drive the nail after you insert the wire and nail in the hole. We used to use this to put down 2x4 "plates" to hold wall forms in place on footers.  

     

     

    " Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
  2. mmiikkee | Nov 20, 2009 12:31am | #2

    permagrips is a brand name. 

  3. bobguindon | Nov 20, 2009 03:07am | #3

    I don't think that any of these are exactly what you're looking for, but take a look at this site:

    http://www.concretefasteners.com/

    Bob

  4. webby | Nov 20, 2009 03:08am | #4

    Pretty sure this is what you are looking for. Hillman Fastener Co. Spike Anchors.

    http://wedo.hillmangroup.com/category/solid-wall-anchors?

    I havent used them but they look great. I too have seen Tom Silva using them.

    Webby 

     


    Edited 11/19/2009 7:10 pm ET by webby


    Edited 11/19/2009 7:28 pm ET by webby



    Edited 11/19/2009 7:31 pm ET by webby

    1. Bob_the_cartoonist | Nov 20, 2009 03:37am | #5

      Thanks webby!  That's EXACTLY what I was looking for!!!!  I'll call them tomorrow!  And to all who answered with other options, try these.  They work great on TV!  Cheers!

      1. webby | Nov 20, 2009 05:44am | #6

        No problem.Webby 

         

  5. plumbbill | Nov 20, 2009 07:55am | #7

    I have used both the Spike¯ & the Drive¯ to anchor PT wood on concrete, they both work great.

    Do not use a hammer, use a single jack.

     

  6. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 20, 2009 11:23am | #8

    Better than a framing hammer is a lump hammer.  It's a small, short handled sledge hammer, about four pounds.  It's a good tool to have in the garage.  Excellent for driving wood stakes, numerous other applications.

    The old stand-by for nailing wood to concrete was a cut nail, AKA a horse shoe nail.  Then came hardened concrete nails, thicker than a typical common nail with small groves in the shank.  Neither of those nails requires drilling. 

    Remember to wear full coverage eye protection when hammering any type of concrete nail.

    1. DanH | Nov 20, 2009 04:09pm | #9

      And there are some inexpensive powder-actuated systems. Hilti, I think, makes several.
      A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

      1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 20, 2009 09:01pm | #10

        Sure but the OP said no guns. 

        It's simple enough to rent a Hilti from HD, buy the shot and the nails and be done with it.  When shooting into well cured concrete, get some red shots, the heavy duty kind along with some green shots.   

        Again, be sure to wear full coverage eye protection when hammering or shooting steel nails into concrete. 

        1. User avater
          Jeff_Clarke | Nov 21, 2009 03:30am | #11

          AND ear protection especially if you're inside.

          1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 21, 2009 03:48am | #13

            AND ear protection especially if you're inside.

            Very true.  I have several pairs of foam ear plugs in my bucket and apron.  Use 'em for lots of loud tools. 

        2. jimAKAblue | Nov 21, 2009 03:50am | #14

          I used to use cut nails or masonry nails. Then, we would often run out and I'd get into the hilti pins. I'd just hand drive them like any ordinary nail. They worked great for fastening to concrete and eventually, I stopped buying concrete nails LOL and just hand drove the hilti pins.

          1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 21, 2009 04:00am | #16

            I stopped buying concrete nails LOL and just hand drove the hilti pins.

            I haven't tried that.  Surprised that it works.  They're very light weight, compared to a hardened steel masonry nail, some kind of aluminum alloy.  I thought they were designed to take only one or two direct shots. 

            Edited 11/20/2009 8:00 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter

          2. jimAKAblue | Nov 21, 2009 04:29am | #17

            They drive great. I couldn't ever get them to drive into the steel beam but they penetrate concrete very easily because of their lesser diameter. I never had any trouble with them bending either.

          3. DanH | Nov 21, 2009 04:30am | #18

            First time I ever heard of Hilti was when I was in jr high and somewhere my dad picked up a box of Hilti threaded-end nails that came with a "handle" in the box, allowing you to hand-drive them. Never drove any into solid concrete, but they worked fine going into block.
            A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter

    2. FastEddie | Nov 21, 2009 03:37am | #12

      Lump hammer:   Estwing sells a nice engineers hammer, all steel handle and head, typical blue rubber grip, about 3 pounds I think."Put your creed in your deed."   Emerson

      "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

      1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Nov 21, 2009 03:54am | #15

        I have a cheaper one with a yellow fiberglass handle.   You're right about the official name, engineer's hammer.  

         

  7. BoJangles | Nov 21, 2009 06:11am | #19

    We use those fasteners all the time for situations like yours.  I can buy them anywhere around here so they can't be that hard to find.

    A bit of advice....they are relatively expensive, so what we do is use PL Premium to actually hold the boards to the floor and use the offset pins sparingly to hold the boards until the adhesive sets up. The PT will probably rot the pin out eventually anyway unless you spring for the SS variety.

    Be sure to overdrill the depth of the hole and blow the hole out before you drive the fasteners.  A heavy small sledge is the best tool to drive them.  You have to hit them dead center or they don't want to go in.  Drive the pin until it is just tight to the floor or you will blow the adhesive out from under the wood.

    1. Bob_the_cartoonist | Nov 21, 2009 06:21am | #20

      Thanks Bo, but no adhesive, as I'm putting the boards down on a heavy plastic vapor barrier.  Only the nails.  Thanks to all for your words of wisdom!  I LOVE this forum!!!!

      1. BoJangles | Nov 21, 2009 06:52am | #21

        I would put the vapor barrier over the top of the PT and Styrofoam and use the adhesive. 

        What difference would it make?

        1. Bob_the_cartoonist | Nov 21, 2009 05:51pm | #22

          I'm an amateur, but it seems logical to me that if a little moisture seeps in at all through the slab (and I know this will happen a bit, as I see a little now before I've even started, even thought I sealed it with concrete sealing paint), that the vapor barrier will keep everything dry, except where the infrequent nails holding down the concrete are located.  But if the vapor barrier is on top of the wood and foam, and moisture seeps in, the wood and foam will be laying right in it and that doesn't sound as good.

          Doesn't that seem logical?

          1. BoJangles | Nov 21, 2009 10:09pm | #26

            Are you sure that the moisture is "seeping" in or is that condensation on the floor? If it's seeping in that much, that sounds like a bad situation.  Do you have a high water table under the floor?  Is there high hydrostatic pressure for some reason?

            I would try the old trick where you tape a 2' x 2' square of clear plastic to the dry floor and see if moisture develops under it.  If it does, you have a problem with moisture coming up from the bottom.  If it doesn't, you were getting condensation on the top of the slab...a very common condition in some circumstances.

            I would not count on long term success with regular steel fasteners holding PT wood on to a concrete floor.  That's why I prefer the PL Premium approach.

          2. Bob_the_cartoonist | Nov 22, 2009 12:18am | #27

            Hey Bo,

            This slab is partly right up against the original concrete block porch.  I extended the porch 8 feet, along the outside of this shop.  So about 16 feet of the slab is up against this old/new concrete block, which is about 2 feet taller than the slab.  Like I said, I put that Durarock (spelling?) waterproofing white paint all over the 2 foot high exposed inside concrete block of the porch and out onto the slab about a foot.  Rainwater comes down on the porch and runs off and I'm sure some of it is seeping through/under the block and slightly dampening the slab surface, along the edge where they meet.  I'm sure it's rainwater, not condennsation, because it only appears after heavyu or long rains and only there.  The rest of the slab, 18'x24', always is dry and the dampness is only there after long rains.  Next spring I'm going to really clean the mortared brick surface of the porch and the concrete block along its edge that rises an inch or two above (on which the walls of the shop are framed), and put down a commercial grade sealer.  Hopefully that will help solve this intermittent problem.  There ARE gutters along the roof top, in case you wondered.  But anyway, that's why I want the plastic on the bottom.  I'll only nail minimumly, too, to decrease the number of penetrations in the PT 2x2's.  Like I said, the glued down/stapled plywood sub-floor isn't going to allow anything to go anywhere anyway.  What do you think???? 

          3. BoJangles | Nov 22, 2009 01:26am | #28

            At some point you have to distinguish between water "vapor" and plain old water.  If you have water leaking into the space, I would be afraid to cover the floor with anything to be honest with you.

            6 mil poly doesn't sound like it's going to be the solution to your problem.  I think you have already figured out what you have to do before undertaking the floor project.

             

        2. Bob_the_cartoonist | Nov 21, 2009 05:55pm | #23

          H i Bo again,

          Why should I use adhesive anyway?  The nails will hold it in place and it's on the floor.  The plywood and hardwood on top, plus the weight of all the stationary tools will keep it from ever moving anyway.  Right?  Adhesive would be good for vertical applications, but seemingly unnecessary on the floor???

          1. whitedogstr8leg | Nov 21, 2009 08:04pm | #24

             The ahdesive will keep the wood in place while you nail it down.   As for a vapour barrier,  it should go down first then nail off the wood sleepers, and then "infill" with foam boards.   Then you can add the flooring of your choice.   The nice thing about the "glue" is that it will seal the nail holes in the vapour barrier." Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"

          2. BoJangles | Nov 21, 2009 10:00pm | #25

            Are you saying he should glue the sleepers down to the plastic??  Sounds like he has already figured out he can't do that.

          3. whitedogstr8leg | Nov 22, 2009 10:20am | #31

             The only reason I'd glue boards to a vapour barrier would be: 1)  to keep the boards in place while I'm nailing them down, and 2)  the glue would seal the nail holes in the vapour barrier.   Just a bead down the center of the board, flip the board over and nail it down. " Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"

  8. mike4244 | Nov 22, 2009 02:25am | #29

    The nails are spike nails.Or Use the trick the first post mentioned with tie wire and 16d nails. Drill  3/16" hole 4" deep thru the lumber and into concrete.The 4" is from the top of the plate. Place a piece of rebar tie wire about 4" long in the hole,then a 16d galvanized  or bright nail ( galvanized is better but has a tendency to bend ).Drive the 16d nail thru lumber into hole and the wire will deform and take up any slop in the hole. It will not pull out,the lumber would have to be pulled thru the nails if you make a mistake and have to remove it.

    If you use spike nails,you may be able to buy a couple of pounds from a concrete contractor. When I needed them I could only buy a 50 lb box.I probably used 10 lbs over 5 or 6 years til i retired.Gave the rest of them away.

    mike



    Edited 11/21/2009 6:31 pm ET by mike4244

    1. Snort | Nov 22, 2009 03:18am | #30

      The spikes are great. Ran out of them once, and used 2 16d nails in the hole... way less expensive.http://www.tvwsolar.com

      We'll have a kid

      Or maybe we'll rent one

      He's got to be straight

      We don't want a bent one

      He'll drink his baby brew

      From a big brass cup

      Someday he may be president

      If things loosen up

  9. damunk | Nov 22, 2009 04:31pm | #32

    You drill a 1/4" hole directly through your 2x and 2" into the slab, then take one 8dgal. and one 10dgal. and drive them in together.  Never fails.  Pop Schram taught us this one.

    1. BoJangles | Nov 22, 2009 04:48pm | #33

      I use the"double nail" system for lots of stuff.  There's no doubt it works and is cheap and fast..... But I only use it when adhesive or something else is going to be what actually holds something in place over the long run.

      I use it a lot when installing concrete expansion strips along an existing concrete or block wall.  A hammer drill and a couple of roofing nails in the same hole is a great way to hold these strips solidly in place while you pour concrete up to them.

      Different combinations of nails will work for almost any situation.

       

  10. thgase | Oct 06, 2014 01:40pm | #34

    Concrete Spike Fasteners

    I've had the same issue; couldn't find the spikse Silva used either.  Did a search and TruFast in Bryan, Ohio is the mfg. http://www.trufast.com.  It seems the best place to go to buy them is on line, either amazion or eBay. Unfortunately, I still don't know what store carries them.  Attached is a file showing all the different lengths.

    File format
    1. User avater
      deadnuts | Oct 07, 2014 10:05pm | #35

      try these...

      https://www.us.hilti.com/anchor-systems/plastic-anchors/260348

      They are somewhat pricey...but they are:

      1. easily available through Hilti (some box stores carry them

      2. can fasten into base material with fastening strips in place

      3. hammer in for secure anchoring-- every time

      4. Can easily remove with cordless screw gun if necessary

      I've used just about every anchoring fastner out there. This is, hands down, the most versatile for evey day anchoring.

  11. donb2 | Jun 06, 2024 10:46pm | #36

    Spring spikes
    https://www.amazon.com/CONFAST-Pre-Expanded-Mushroom-Tamper-Proof-Concrete

    Tommy Silva video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i48Tdi4H1TY

  12. JoeJoiner | Jun 12, 2024 11:46pm | #37

    Mushroom head crimp anchors. Simpson has their own version that I believe they refer to it as crimp-drive anchors.

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