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Concrete and deck posts

bruceb | Posted in Construction Techniques on May 28, 2005 08:20am

Ok,

                 It’s been a few years so maybe I’m wrong. But I don’t think I am.

                My nextdoor neighbor is a spoiled little daddies girl ( at the age of 45) who often asks for opinions only so she can tell you how wrong you are.

                  Anyway, she just had a concrete patio poured this afternoon. It’s 22′ wide by 12′ long. They scraped up the grass, formed it with 2×6’s, threw in about 1″ of stone, and poured.

                   Couple of problems I have. Nothing(NO expansion joint) between house and slab. Poured around deck posts. No flashing around the PT deckposts, they go straight thru the slab and concrete is in direct contact, and when they rot away, she’ll have three nice holes in her patio. Nothing tieing it to the house and it sits on, in some places, less than 1″ of stone on top of top soil. Finished with a power trowel, Nice and smooth.

                  All this for a mere $2200. AM I too picky? I’ve not been in the trades for the last four years but the whole time I was watching this I was fighting the urge to ask the guy doing it what the hell he was doing.

                    Well known local company too.

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  1. DaveRicheson | May 28, 2005 11:56am | #1

    but the whole time I was watching this I was fighting the urge to ask the guy doing it what the hell he was doing.

    Making money.

    Using a 4 yard minimum for the pour, he got $550./ yd., excavated, formed. poured and finished.  Do you know what the going rate is for flat work in your area?

    Dave

    1. bruceb | May 28, 2005 03:35pm | #4

       

         Dave,

                    No, I'm not sure what the going rate is today. I know what it was Four years ago but things have changed drastically around here since then.

                   I included the cost because It struck me that this guy was charging what a competent concrete guy would charge and doing the work of a guy who works out of his 1975 Plymouth station wagon.

                 Good size company with big custom painted trucks too.

  2. dIrishInMe | May 28, 2005 01:59pm | #2

    That's a lot of money for that job...  Roughly $8 a foot...

    Sounds like some of the methods were not the best either, but, I find it better not to offer my opinions on jobs that I'm not directly involved with, unless my opinion is solicited.  You asked ... :-)

    That said, yes there should have been an expansion joint between the house and the new slab so the piece of concrete could move up and/or down a bit, and no, the new concrete should have not been poured around the deck posts.  For the posts, it would have been better if the patio had been formed up so that the concrete didn't go around the posts.  The posts will probably rot out somewhat prematurely, but then I guess they will just have to be replaced...

    Re the concrete's substrate, as long as the soil under the slab is of uniform compaction, it will probably be OK.  That is the purpose of the gravel - to give a uniform substrate - granted, 6" of gravel would have been better.  Patios are often a problem because there is likely a bunch of backfill up by the house, but not 6 or 8' out from it.  If the house is, say 10 or 20 years old, and has good drainage, this is less of an issue since the backfill has settled some.  Either way, excavating out a lot more dirt would not have helped much with this and possibly even made the situation worse as you would likely end up with hard dirt 8' out from the house and still have backfill right next to the house - unless the house foundation is very shallow.  The thing is that this slab only needs to support it's own weight.  It's not a driveway, and I'm guessing it is not going to have a structure built on it.   The idea is to "float" the slab.

    You did not say anything about control joints, but this sized piece of concrete needs some.  You said slick finish - normally exterior concrete is finished with some texture so that it is not slippery when wet.
     
    Matt



    Edited 5/28/2005 7:30 am ET by DIRISHINME

    1. bruceb | May 28, 2005 03:25pm | #3

       

                     The House is about eighteen years old.  It's a walkout basement so I have to think there was not much excavation at the time and that it's pretty stable now. The thought of in some places less than an inch of stone just rubs me wrong I guess.

                      Nope, not a control joint in site. One nice big slab, with a nice slick finish.

                   Thing that rubbed me wrong the most was just pouring around the deck posts. They're eighteen years old. Same age as mine, and truth be told I plan to replace mine in the next few weeks. But, now heres are a nice part of her patio slab. SO, when they do rot prematurely they'll be lots of fun to replace.

                  I don't work in the trades anymore and have avoided doing even little jobs for her because of how she is. So I'll just be keeping my mouth shut and letting her think she got the best patio ever.

                Funny thing, while the crew was waiting for the pour to set up enough to start finishing, the Foreman/Salesman was working the neighborhood. Offered to do the same " Quality of work for the neighbor on the other side. 10' X 12' patio for $1875 plus permit costs.

  3. FastEddie1 | May 28, 2005 03:42pm | #5

    And your point is ... ?

    In a short while there will be expansion joints around the posts, cuz the concrete is gonna crack there as is cures and shrinks.  The busted concrete will make iot easier to replace the posts.  Same for the house ... there will be a small joint, ready for caulk, after the concrete cures fully.  Slick finish is much easier on bare feet.  And at least they used 2x6 ... some would have used 2x4.

    No, I agree with you, mostly.  Seems like a quick & dirty job.

     

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

  4. Curtis | May 28, 2005 03:56pm | #6

    Hello

    I agree about the posts,Although are thay done? I had a frind that had something like that done a few years ago, the company came back a week latter and saw cut relives in the concreat.  So far no cracking.

    The city replaced the side walks around my naborhood last year, thay used 2x4's as fourms.

    I guess more is better? ;-)

     

    C.A.G.
  5. TJK1141 | May 28, 2005 07:11pm | #7

    The going rate out here (western CO) is $3-$4 a foot, so I'd say she paid a bit too much. As for the quality of the work, were there any written specs prior to the pour? Bubba (or Jose) don't normally do anything but what he's told to.

    1. dIrishInMe | May 28, 2005 09:53pm | #8

      Hey - watch it!!! ;-)  My concrete guy's name is Jose!  BTW - he charges $2.50 a square foot turnkey.  That does not include any heavy grading, and he does no backfill after the pour either.  That price is new construction though... He doesn't mess around with any "free estimates" for homeowners or anything like that. 

      Matt

      Edited 5/28/2005 4:03 pm ET by DIRISHINME

  6. ronaldrady | May 29, 2005 07:47am | #9

    Robert,

    "formed it with 2x6's, threw in about 1" of stone, and poured."

    So she ended up with 5" of concrete? That's a solid 1" more than most patios and even driveways will ever see or need.

    As for the expansion joint, someone else has already mentioned that the concrete will shrink away from the house and the posts. This is true.

    "Finished with a power trowel, Nice and smooth."

    Hmm, you mentioned deck posts...suggesting a deck over the patio. How much water will this patio see? Nowadays they have a sealer called "sharkskin" sprays on clear & prevents the slick concrete from being slippery when wet. Works just as well as a broom finish. Also as mentioned earlier is much nicer on the bare feet.

    "Nothing tieing it to the house and it sits on"

    Since you would rather spend your time criticizing your neighbors patio and someone's work, instead of filling out your profile so we could see where your from, I am going to assume that your from Florida. Since you are from Florida and frost heaving isn't a concern there would really be no reason to tie this slab to the house. It is essentially a floating slab. And since they poured on the virgin soil and and did not disturb the underlying compaction it shouldn't settle.

    "AM I too picky?"

    If it was your patio no. But since it is not, Yes!!

     

    1. DanH | Jun 01, 2005 03:54am | #10

      > Since you are from Florida and frost heaving isn't a concern there
      > would really be no reason to tie this slab to the house.It's even less wise to tie a slab to the house in cold country. The slab will almost always heave to some degree, and it's better to just let it go where it wants to go.

      1. ronaldrady | Jun 01, 2005 04:33am | #11

        I guess I don't know much about cold country, but were I am from we always tie the floating slab, ie. sidewalk, patio, ect. to the existing foundation. Sure looks like hell when you don't and the slab "floats" up and blocks the door or rips the siding.  Thats just here in Alaska though.

        1. DanH | Jun 01, 2005 05:59am | #12

          Well, we try to keep doors and siding several inches above any slabs. Things like stoops, of course, have a full foundation, and are expected to stay put, but a patio or driveway slab is simply allowed to float.Worst case frost heave is generally 2-3 inches, usually less. Enough to break a slab if it's pinned, not enough to cause any damage if it floats free.

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