Hi all
Haven’t been to break time for many years.
I’m back!
I am developing a new concrete and have a local engineer doing the research on it so I can get my processes and material approved by my states building code. I am going to be building houses with 18″ solid reinforced walls and I am looking at various types of form systems from shop built forms to manufactured forms. I want a system that can easily be taught to carpenters and and as easy on the back as possible. One system I have found is the Gates horizontal rod system. Has anyone had experience with this system. If so what do you think of it, I am trying to get the cost of the forms to be as low as possible, I have a millwork shop in which I could set up to rout all the form boards to accept the snap ties ( saving me having to buy a form system by doing it my self ). I have found a source for 2′ x 12′ x 3/4″ 7 ply form board and am waiting for a price quote. I need a system that is 12′ because my designs have my ceilings between 10′ and 11′ 6″ . The gates system looks good to me because there is no 2 x 4 frame adding to the weight or metal ribs adding to the expense. Gates says that they can produce forms that don’t need framing, ribs or wailers because of the rod system and the extra snap ties that they use.
If you have had experience with this system or a better and cheaper way, please share your expertise.
10-Q
Replies
ICF's
doesn't get any simpler than that. no need to reinvent the wheel
Is there a special reason why you need 18" solid concrete walls??
k
Turn back the nukes?
Ya know?
just asking...
k
yes
I Build Antebellum houses and meteranian style houses both styles have minimum of 18" walls, Also after i get the engineering stamp on my next project I plan on publishing the process. Its greener than green will last hundreds of years only needing plaster and stucco repairs for normal upkeep can be rewired and plumbed with out tearing into the walls in 80 years, does not rot, burn, provide a home for rodents and snack food for termites. wood is used for doors and windows and any decorative millwork only. If you travel through Europe you would see that the building track that we are on in the US is ridiculous. I call it "stucco and Styrofoam". I bought a house from a cousin in Northern Italy that is older than our country and it wasn't lived in for twenty years I rewired it remodeled a bath added a second bathroom cleaned floors, pulled plaster off the kitchen to revel the vaultina brick ceiling repaired plaster cracks and painted it and I didn't spend $20,000 try that with a stick built house (300 years later ). I have been building for 40 years and building has only gone down hill from my vantage point. We need to be looking elsewhere for good ideas. I'm stealing from northern Italy and adding a new concrete to the mix and wallah magic happens. In our typical construction there are so many layers to our projects, many industries supply those materials and everyone along the supply line wants to be a millionaire. I will rent a cement truck ( empty ) with driver for the day. put everything into the truck that is needed making my carpentry crew the main manufacturer of the majority of material that goes into the project. I have been using this material for years now Im getting the paper work together to use it in walls. We use trusses in houses everywhere in the US they are typically built with 2x4 material it is a great and powerful thing only there is no allowance for the ravages of time. Roofs leak, dry rot happens termites can leap tall buildings. If you ever had to lift up a 19 th century house they all had minimum 10" x10" white oak beams, rotten in places termite damage in others and they still have enough integrity to hold the house up 150 years later. I'm tired of $5 a pound nails. I want to change the game by going backwards and forwards at the same time.
Yes 18" walls and in places 20 and 24 inch walls and cost effectively I will be able to put 4 or 5 hooded tuscan fireplaces in my houses , my cost, compared to hiring a good brick mason to build one good brick Rumford.
Ive got a dead line! I need to be working
I think that last cup of coffffe was a bad idea?
Erm. Wow.
Actually, I agree with alot of the main points of your response- building for hundreds of years, etc. Totally get it, and pretty much agree.
However, the old mediterrranean houses that you're referring to were built out of un-reinforced masonry, hence the wider walls. A modern reinforced concrete wall of 8" will last as long or longer as your average 18" italian wall that has stood for 300 years.
18" is really, really big for a solid reinforced concrete wall. Like, nuclear bunker, or bank vault big. Not tryng to burst your overall bubble, just refine it a bit.
k
Part of the reason for the thick walls is the ability to reproduce with authenticity a building style. I cant put raised panel jambs in a 8 inch wall or shutters that fold out of window jambs. Also the material doesn't have the compressive strength of typical poured concrete walls so thickness helps. Your right 8" reinforced concrete has its benefits but with an 18" masonry wall I don't need airconditioning in Italy but with a 8" cement wall furred and insulated with 2" blown cellulose in North Carolina I do. All I have to do in Italy is keep the sun out and keep the house closed up till the temp of the day starts to drop. In winter I only need a small wood cook stove to heat most of the house (6 room house) its probably 4000' ele. and the french alps are only 40 minutes away. Its as hot as it is here in North Carolina and as cold as New York and my house is pretty efficient considering it has no insulation only single pane glass and a cool wine cellar under foot. the house uses very little energy. when i bought it the electrical service was 1.5 kilowatt I up graded to 3 kilowatt. They have achieved simply what we are trying to do with the utmost complexity and cost. That house couldn't be any greener. To be fair we don't have three generations living under one roof with lots of kids to load field stone into the mule cart,mix mud and take multiple generations to build the house. We build houses faster that alone means our carbon foot print is going to be bigger. I think i have found good compromise at least for the styles of architecture I like building. I just need to get the cost of forms reduced and the form system identified.
Ok, sorry to sidetrack your forming question.
To reiterate, I also appreciate thick walls, whatever their structure (if you can afford the square footage, of course). I worked on a house in N.M. where the traditional adobe walls are more than a foot thick.
I seriously question whether 18" of solid material is more energy efficient than a different 18" assembly, but either will perform well, I imagine.
I've only worked on houses that used the waler system for tall poured walls. We used most of the walers in framing throughout the house, so I don't see a lot of drawbacks, but, I'm not an expert.
k
You need to hit the enter key to paragraph occasionally too.
Makes for easier reading.There is a type of ICF that is made with some portland in the icf part of the form and is fairly thick, maybe 18" or so. can't remember the name of it right now, but its out there
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I like the 18 inch walls, talk about hurricane proof, it be perfect around here. especially if the form work had some type of texitle so stucco would not be needed.
Hurricanes and earthquakes, fires and floods
My first trade was masonry so stucco on concrete exterior gets me the look I like on the exterior and lime based plasters and even the clay based plasters inside would allow me to get the look I want inside.
There is a type of ICF that is made with some portland in the icf part of the form and is fairly thick, maybe 18" or so. can't remember the name of it right now, but its out there
Are you thinking of Rastra blocks? I think they go up to 14" wide. Of course, the structural reinforced concrete cores are only something like 6" (which is plenty). But with stucco/plaster, he'd be approaching the overall depth he's looking for.
I do like thick walls, the deep set windows have a really nice reflectivity, and window bench seats, etc. become cool options. But I'd rather see 8-12" of foam and thermal breaks with a 6" core than 18" of solid concrete. That's a little overbuilt, IMHO.
k
Edited 2/19/2009 3:17 pm ET by KFC
yeah. In the back of my mind I was thinking Rastfarian blocks and I knew that wasn't right so I figured I was having a senior moment.you get a good 6.5" of crete out of a normal ICFin a 12" wall, so adding a 2" EPS to that and some furring would give great insulation and the thickness he wants.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You wouldn't be the first to call them rasta blocks.
Yeah, a regular ICF wall and some air space and some more foam would perform really well. And would last for ages.
Or a shell wall.
He's not backing off from the 18" of solid concrete though! Go HiWire! Go!
k
I suspect that his "special " mix of concrete contains fillers not unlike the blocks mentioned or small pellets of foam.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Could be. But I'd think you'd get better insulation with a continuous foam barrier on one or both sides of solid concrete (like an ICF) over grinding up the foam and mixing it in at the same ratio. Haven't ever seen a comparison, but it seems likely...
Especially if you had an air space/ thermal break like piffin suggested.
k
I don't think he's interested in any kind of foam system. His second post is pretty dismissive of "stucco and styrofoam" construction. Also in favor of heavy timbers for roof framing.Frenchy should be all over this one! I'm curious about the secret system of remodeling this beast over the years. As well as the target market. Better not let Riversong get wind of it.Should be interesting to follow.John
calling all demons
calling all demonsPlease report to this thread...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I once assisted in the construction of an AAC block house. AAC = Autoclaved Aerated Concrete. They claimed some really good R-value - can't remember what it was. Although the "Autoclaved" part means cooked... more or less. Not sure how that would fit in, Anyway it was a type of lightweight concrete that was kinda cool - had cutting, drilling, etc characteristics almost like wood. Maybe he is talking about something along that line...
Any guess on what the r-value of 18" of AAC is?
I'm guessing there are better performing 18" wall assemblies than 18" of any special mix.
k
It was 10 years ago... kinda foggy... the product was Hebel Block. I'm thinking maybe they claimed R-20 for a 10" thick wall... Heck, I can't even remember how thick they were...
Interesting. I never heard of it. So it's solid all the way through? Probably has a pretty good r-value after all.
I've still gotta think air space and a layer of rigid foam (could be multiple layers of same, if you're really talking 18", like the op) will out perform any solid cementitious material. By incoporating the air space into the mix, you allow conductive thermal bridging through the cement/aggregate, around the air spaces.
k
Rastra
when you are up to yur knees in gators, make gatorade
Thanks a writer Im notI have a problem with styrofoam in construction. If its strong enough so that it cant be chewed on I'd like it better,sounds like someone is trying. Im trying to get away from products that need to be produced elsewhere. Humans are greedy. the fewer involved in a project the better.
http://www.rastra.com/Worth a look
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting thought on building a better product.
Will the 18" wall have a higher r value due to your process?
The weight of this type of construction, will it require soils with greater bearing capacity?
Would commercial form systems (rentable) lend themselves to your process?
Good luck, I will follow your progress with a high degree of interest.
Ya 18" is really overkill. Just finished 6 story concrete super structure with elevator shaft walls only 16" thick.
Simple to learn and easy on the back, can you say bank pour.
Not so easy on the back but Symons hand set or gang is standard around here. Most contractors rent now over buying, you can build anything, any shape and a carpenter that doesn't already know them is an apprentice.
I'm with you on building concrete homes. If I have my way and the money when I build new it'll be concrete. I like having a solid shell you can do whatever with. I'd rather tackle cutting in a new window in a concrete wall than in a stick built, or any retro fit for that matter.
Our core walls are 30", but it's 33 stories ;-)
Our floors that span 28' x 30' between columns is 9" PT.
Soon I am going to find out what the mix paramiters are going to be ( psi strength ) that will dictate what the r value will be. Also the form system will affect that also, most of the form systems the snapties can be removed completely from the wall, the system Im looking at now will be problematic to remove. The efficiency of the wall and floor systems will be very good all factors considered.the weight shouldnt be a problem and commercial forms will work fine.
I'm curious about the Tuscan fireplaces.
I can't find an online source to accurately describe one. Only
Tuscan style mantels and stove hoods.
What differentiates it from any other type of fireplace, and
what makes it so much more cost effective then a Rumford?
What I call a Tuscan fireplace is really an Italian fireplace but the same style is found around europe. Because the walls in europe are so thick the flue fits in the wall all you need to do is extend arms out of the wall to support the the lintle stone I make arms and lintle by forming and pouring reinforced sand concrete, and early the next day I strip the forms and distress the cement to make it look like I smuggled it out of the parthenon. I set fire brick into the wall 4" to 8" to create the fire back this has to go up to where the fire enters the flue. you need to form a hood. and the hearth can be either raised or on the floor. Wood houses dont lend themselves to this fireplace but it can be done.
I love Rumford fireplaces. I have been building them for 40 years but they dont hold a candle to what I call a Tuscan Fireplace. With the tuscan fireplace you can have the back wall of the firebox flush with the wall the hood is on. Have to say it really messes with inspectors minds.
>>Have to say it really messes with inspectors minds.<< I'll bet it does! LOL Sure would simplifies things. Your still laying up a firebox and
throat right?
the throat is the hood. No hocus pocus, just gracefully get the heated gasses into the flue.
Also you dont need the firebox actually there isnt a firebox its what makes the fireplace so good. you need fire brick on the wall behind the fire up to the chimney opening, for a different effect you can set the fire brick behind the face of the wall the hood is on. the hood can be a long taper. In castles the hood can be 8' or taller. The problem inspectors have is they cant calculate flue size relative to opening.
Thanks for the feedback.
That certainly would simplify things.
The one part I can't visualize is the smoke shelf. I guess
the flue opening is set low enough to allow the hood to
continue on above so the taper can act as one (if that makes any
sense).LoL
Correct about the hood. If you use the arms supporting the lintle you need to taper the inside of the lintle from the face back. This fire place is self regulating relative to fire size the same a rumfords, I just had to move from one side on my couch to the other because the fire in my modified rumford ( curved back ) had to much wood on it. Because in the begining of the fire, flames tend to be higher because the fireplace itself isnt radiating heat and those flames will cause your lintle and hood to crack. The remedy is to cut 7/16" sheet steel to the inside shape of the anterior face of the hood. you need to space it away from the wall 1/2" this allows the lintle and hood to heat at a slower rate. Am I spelling Lintle correctly it looks right but the spell check keeps high lighting it. The spell check looks wrong to me.
Just what are you using in your concrete that makes it so energy efficient?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Lintal I think. Thanks for the lesson,something for me to look into. PS
Get ready for the embodied energy attack.
thanks Im ready, If im heading down a dead end road, I would rather find out now before I put the money and effort into it.
What part of NC are you in?
i sure wish you would
use your return key now and then
i'm sure you have some great things to say... but all i see is one big jibberish
i have the same problem with two of my sisters when they email
a little white space really helpsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry My girl friend says the same thing.
Very interesting point of view -I used ICFs(Polysteel) for my basement foundation. Really impressed with the form system for 8" compared to other residential forms systems readily available.What I don't really like is the styrofoam on the exterior of the structure. Mine is only 2' of "freeboard" above grade but that is a difficult area to detail cleanly and aesthetically. Interior is great, exterior not so much.I'm not sure 18" is really necessary using modern concrete and additives, however I am curious as to your methodology and "real" costs. I am a big fan of concrete as a building material and strongly debated continuing on up with ICFs and SIP roof...Good luck, very interesting!
I'm a little lost here. I understand you like historicist houses because of their feel and look, but I lose your train of argument when you try and make the jump that they are somehow greener than other building methods.
The absence of wood in Southern European construction owes as much to the fact that they depleted their forests and used only abundant material they had, as any perceived advantage to building in stone or brick. As you move north you find wood used extensively in Germany and throughout the Baltic States and Scandinavia.
What interests me most when I travel in Europe is the ingenuity with which many architects have successfully built on their traditions to create a new and more efficient regionally appropriate style for their countries.
I understand you have developed a high R value concrete, but I don't see what connection this has with reproducing in-efficient Tuscan style fireplaces, shutters or trim. My advice would be to separate your stylistic enthusiasms from your interest in energy efficiency.
>> I lose your train of argument when you try and make the jump that they are somehow greener than other building methods. <<
I was wondering about that when the statement was first made (above) as well. I recently attended a few green building seminars. I remember one of the things they said was that concrete wasn't that green because of the embodied energy it contains. To tell you the truth I wasn't exactly sure what that mean with regard to concrete. A quick Google brought up this article. So, the issue is the amount of carbon monoxide generated to produce the type of concrete commonly used today. As usual, it isn't that black and white, because then the issues of the longevity of the structure and the efficiency of operation comes into play.
If you can stand wading through the 800+ posts, the green-ness of concrete was flogged to death in the IFC vs Wood thread in the Green forum. The one point in its favor seems to be its longevity, but there is fairly convincing evidence that the lifespan of houses in North America most often has to do with other factors rather than their deterioration.
I was in architecture school during the early 80s when Post Modernism was in full flower and we were all very optimistic that the answers to our present problems lay in understanding past building types. The movement basically split into two factions: the historicists who simply mimicked past buildings - which since has turned out to be a dead end, and those designers who successfully incorporated past knowledge into modern building types- which to me anyway has shown the most promise.
>> If you can stand wading through the 800+ posts << No thanks!!! I saw that thread but never opened it.... With ICF I really wonder about insects....
glad you gave me the summary - which I think I already covered....
If this guy wants to build antibellium style homes in the right settings, they probably will last the lifetime of the concrete.... McMansions OTOH??? NOT!!!
Life's a beach and were the pebbles.Thanks for the links. Nothing is simple. I will research those cement companies.
I like historic buildings because of the integrity of the trades that built them. Beautiful as well a functional, You don't see badly built historic buildings one poorly chosen material can be the downfall of a structure over time.When I started building you needed glasses and a pencil to count and mark the winter rings on a 2x4 now you can stand 5' away. The houses you refer to have very dense ring structure and all heartwood. The house I referenced to I will list the materials to construct it. Stone, lime mortar, lime plaster, lime stucco, appropriate timbers for there purpose, brick, clay roof tile, glass, lime/milk paint. Its cool in summer requiring only small fans and warm in winter the family that sold me the house only had a very small wood cook stove. It has all the wrong materials to be efficient and no insulation. I would trade it for any wood house i have lived in. For aesthetics especially, I would not want to be in it in a earthquake.It would be very hard for me to separate my stylistic aesthetic and my drive to find a better way to build. I happen to like substantial historic buildings. I have been building 40 years and 30 of those I have been trying to figure a way to build thick walled houses in a cost effective way. I like fat walls. The cement I have been using for years can be used in thinner walls but until my engineer gets finished testing i could not say how thin a wall could be approved.the romans invented concrete. and with vaulting have been building masonry structures a long time.
Something I'm not clear about... Are you planning to produce a type of concrete that has a higher R-value than standard concrete?
Also, I'm not a big "concrete constructor". Most all of my concrete work is footings, flatwork and monolithic slabs. Anyway, aren't metal forms usually the way to go?- assuming this is going to be a repetitive thing... Don't know - just asking...
BTW, I know this doesn't pertain to what you are talking about, but what do you think of Superior Walls?
Edited 2/21/2009 3:03 pm ET by Matt
Yes, exactly what it is I cant say at this point. What I like about it is it is better than concrete for my needs and it is something I can manufacture, anyone for that matter can. by taking minerals and mixing them yourself you side step most of the greedy fingers in the building materials trade, that today is a considerable portion of the cost of building.Im planing on buying a crane and possibly an old concrete truck so purchasing metal forms probably isnt in the cards for me. they are rediculsy expensive, everyone I have talked to
about there form product I ask is that your pre of post depression pricing. Its starting to look like I'm going to have to go back in time and make my own. Historic forms?
I've used Gates forms and do not like them. Getting the rods run though the ties is a huge pain. I would look into Duraforms or Advanced forms (google them) and get 6' forms and stack them to get your 12' wall height. I think you will find them much faster to set and only slightly heavier. Also, consider that forms should be higher than the wall pour to account for footing variation. Basically, if you really need 12' high walls get 4' and stack 9' on them for a 12' wall or pour a 11'-10" wall with two 6' stacks. The wall will have some more fins where the forms butt together so plan on grinding after the wall is poured or framing and rocking the walls for better looks. Make sure to talk to them about your wall width, wall height, if you plan on vibrating the walls, and suggested pour rate or you run the risk of a blow out or pillowing the wall. Hand setting symons forms is another option but they are heavier than Duraforms. I am a big fan of Meva forms and 100 ton cranes though. Good luck.