Anyone
I am in the planning stages of building my house and would like to try using the foam concrete forms for the basement (and possibly the upper level walls also). The issue or question I have is when I discussed this with two of the local termite companies they both flatly stated that they would not(could not) issue a damage Guarantee, they would issue a termite letter or bond (if termites are found they only retreat for free, no repairs) vs. repairing the damage, type guarantee. The reason given is the foam may act as both an attractant (due to moisture held in the foam (I can’t believe it does)) and it will also provide a hidden passage into the structure that cannot be monitored/seen (could be).
One of the termite companies even called and interviewed several (4) of the block manufactures to see what types of guarantees they would provide. He stated the block manufactures would only provide a 1 or 2 yr retreat (not repair) guarantee and they were very cagey about the subject.
So he believes that for this area ( Tennessee, lots of termite activity) this would be a poor choice. If I did go with the blocks it would result in a two company warrantee that seems sure to bring on a slue of finger pointing, if a claim was ever made, of who’s product failed (termite treatment or treatment of the blocks themselves) with me being out in the cold.
I can’t believe foam is that bad from a termite perspective as many, many, FHB articles show foam (in contact with dirt) used as not only concrete forms, but as below grade insulation.
What gives? Am I been fed a line by the termite guy or is this the dark side of a newer product.
thanks
Replies
it's pretty bad.. but in you part of the country , some of the ICF mfr's make their forms with Performguard, which is a borate treated foam.. your termite companies should be familiar with Performguard foams
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike is right on with this one. The specific active mineral in Perform Guard EPS is called "Timbor."
Your termite guy is being honest with you. Termites don't eat foam but they do tunnel in it like you wouldn't imagine. There may be others but Perform guard EPS is the only foam I am aware of that is infused with an effective deterrent.
You might also want to look into Structural Insulated Panels http://www.sipweb.com . R-Control SIPs use the Timbor treated foam.
Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
Edited 4/8/2003 3:43:47 PM ET by wrecked angle
There is a different type of ICF that uses a mixture of cement and usually (maybe always?) styrofoam chunks. The makers of these blocks claim they are impervious to insects. They also won't burn (not true of the normal foam ICFs, which need to have a fire barriers such as covering with a 1/2" of dry wall on the inside in most localities). They are, however, somewhat lower in insulating value and quite a bit heavier to handle when stacking in place. I understand that they can also create quite a bit of dust when they are cut.
I have run across three manufacturers that list this type of product: Rastra (which is a European company that has had some affiliates in North America but has severed ties with at least some of them), PerformWall (which is one of the companies that had been manufacturing Rastra ICFs but developed their own product, and Amazon Gridwall. I have been trying to locate a dealer for one of these products in the Northwest, but haven't received replies yet from the three manufacturers.
If anyone has used any of these products or knows of similar ones, I would like to hear about them.
Thanks.
sounds like Air Krete...pretty impressive product , but i only know of the foam-in -place applicators....
http://www.airkrete.com/Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks, I'll look into these products. I have learned since I posted my original question that the local ICF company recommend cutting a band out of the ICF and forming over it with ply, say about 4 inches such that all termites must come out of the form and over this "show" strip of concrete. This way the only activity that goes unmonitored is the tunneling in the below grade exterior foam. And that, only if the chemical barrier the termite folks put down fails.
I'm beginning to think the ICFs for all their benefits may be more trouble than they are worth.
Thanks. let me know if you learn anything more.
Edited 4/8/2003 5:49:58 PM ET by gstirling
SIPs, SIPs, SIPs... Only way to go.Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
Ok, I'll show my ignorance, what's a SIP, and why's it the way to go.
thanks
Structural Insulated Panel - I gave you a link to a SIP web site with a ton of info back around the third post in this thread. http://www.sipweb.com Here is a discussion I had with Frenchy about them recently.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=27749.1
Bottom line, they are EPS foam and Oriented Strand Board panels sandwiched together under pressure. Best bang for the buck out there. I'm ordering the panels for my own two story this week so needles to say I'm totaly sold on them. I've kind of been making the rounds on my bandwagon the last couple of days.Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
SIPs SIPs......Question......I always thought these panels took the place of stick framing....ala above ground work. Are you suggesting using SIPs for basement walls as well?
For basements, IMHO, nothing beats concrete. Since you're "sold" on SIPs....maybe you'll like this website concerning pre-cast concrete walls. I understand that from a cost standpoint and a performance and installation standpoint, this system is "superior" than normal cast - in - place concrete forms.
Check this out: http://www.superiorwalls.com
Davo
No- no SIPS below grade period. I'm with you 100% on concrete below grade.Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
Kevin
I've been in touch with several ISP companies recently as I want to see the advantages over a concrete guy with wood forms such as cost and availability of time.
I dont understand the question I see here that concrete is better below grade because using SIP's is just the forms. Concrete gets poured into them so why would that be a question. The panels come in all different thicknesses between them such as 6" and 8" etc etc.
I will be meeting with Eco-Block next week I think as we've been in touch.
There was another company that Andy E recomended to me but shipping costs made it cost ineffective. Hoping Eco_Block has a distributer in my neck of the woods here on LI NY. Also I like that Eco-Blocks are PANELS rather than blocks creating actual forms and they seem even easier to install so I shall see soon enough.
The only question about cost is I dont think I'm versed well enough to float out a 30x30 garage floor slab within all scopes of the work....
PS....I will be using the forms strickly for footings and foundation (no garage or above grade walls other than about one foot above grade.
a
"Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"
Alan Watts
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
using SIP's is just the forms. Concrete gets poured into them so why would that be a question
Andy, I believe we have a miscommunication here. I think you are talking ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) and I'm talking SIP (Structural Insulated Panel). ICF will give you a very good insulation value and excellent structural integrity but it will cost you out the wazoo. SIPs provide comparable insulation and structural integrity at a fraction of the cost.
ICF's do make a slightly better house but their cost is prohibitive and building with them is a pain compared to SIPs. Hence my conclusion that SIPs are the best bang for the buck out there.
SIPs are primarily a replacement for traditional wood framing. It doesn't sound like you will have a use for them on this project but you might look into them for future applications. Lumber aint what it used to be- SIPs have been around since the 50's so they are hardly new technology but there have been some major improvements in recent years. http://www.sipweb.com R-control is the manufacturer I'm hanging my hat on.
Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
Edited 4/9/2003 11:04:50 AM ET by wrecked angle
kevin... sips are great.. especially if you go with an R-Control franchise as you have.. all of the R-Control guys can provide Performguard in their product... here in RI, our supplier is Branch River Foam... a pretty neat companyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was going to run ICf to the roof (if I could afford it) mainly due to the sound deadening they provide. Do SIPs preform better in this area than a standard stick build wall (assume 6 in stick built)? I am building close to a road and wanted to deaden as much as possible any road noise.
Thanks for the idea of looking into SIPs
I am building close to a road and wanted to deaden as much as possible any road noise.
One of the biggest selling points to me. I'm building in the country and have a long driveway but it dumps onto a highway.
Depending on where you are the SIPs are going to be anywhere from 2% to 15% more expensive than common stick framing but they are virtually guaranteed to cost you less money. How so? Over a 30 year mortgage the difference doesn't add much to your mortgage payment every month but it knocks a whopping chunk off the utility bill. It's just smart to tack an extra $10 onto your mortgage to save $100 on your utility bill.
Additionally, you will save a lot on your HVAC system. A properly sized system in a SIP house will almost always be much smaller than in a comparably sized stick built house. YOU WANT TO BE SURE AND PROPERLY SIZE YOUR HVAC SYSTEM. Over size the HVAC and you may be scrubbing the mold off of your walls every month.
Richard Rue of Energy Wise Structures in Mansfield, Texas (817) 477-1387 did the energy calculations and load design for my house. He is one of the best. I have a BUNCH of BIG windows in our 2400 S.F. two story house but Richard's calculations showed that we will only require 3 1/2 tons of air to cool it- even in our relatively warm and slightly humid climate.
See if you can get your hands on this book:
Building With Structural Insulated Panels (Sips): Strength and Energy Efficiency Through Structural Panel Constructionby Michael Morley
Hardcover: 192 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.68 x 10.42 x 8.28
Publisher: Taunton Pr; (September 9, 2000)
ISBN: 1561583510
It is the best resource I've discovered so far. Good luck!Kevin Halliburton
"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -Elbert Hubbard-
thanks for the info, will look into the book, you (and the others) have given me an option I had not considered. The SIPs appear to do just what the ICFs I am/was(?) considering, as both systems seem to beat stick built in all comparisons - other than capital upfront, and finding an experienced carpenter/contractor to install.
My big decision after reading all the responses I got and all the archived postings on this subject (I'm learning how to use this site, slow but sure) is whether its "damn the torpedoes and try the ICFs below grade and try SIPs above or go to the eve with the ICFs. Or just cave in to convention and build filled block basement and a 6in stick built above grade or some combination. Will probably come down to the local area's ability to support each method and the %$$ difference in using the SIPs and or ICFs. I do have a local company that has experience with ICFs and I'm about to start looking at the SIPs, but have not run costs yet.
Your house and mine have several design feature in common, I too am in the country, have a little valley with a creek. Do to the grade and shape of the acreage I'm placing the house much closer to the "country" road than I would normally like, but am trying to design the house plan and construction to minimize that. And like your house it is basically all windows on the side over looking the valley/creek.
I'm also (just to make it harder) going with infloor heat and a geothermal heat pump. As it would be to easy to follow convention. So as you mentioned I'm concerned about finding a company that doesn't just wings it and then throw in an extra ton or two "just to be Sure". Humidity is to high here to have the cooling system short cycle.
thanks
Well bang your drum some more, I'm interested in them (now know exactly what you are talking about). But was under the impression like many cool "better mouse traps" they were still fairly expensive. I'd like to hear what sold you, I know I'd love a rolls Royce, but have to settle for a Chevy. Like the ICFs they may build better house, but can I afford that better.
thanks
Very good questions, I too am looking at concrete, instead of foam blocks I am considering this design. Will ask them about termite guarantee
please see link and let me know if you find out more.
What do you think of this concrete contractor/design ?
http://www.tricitycontractors.com/presentations/concrete_housing_presentation_netscape.htm
http://www.tricitycontractors.com/
http://www.engineeringtechpa.com/
Thanks
Tom Poe
Hi, I am just finishing my icf house i built it out of polysteel blocks with perform gard the termites wont eat it you can use it just below grade but i used it all the way to the roof line which is topped by wolminized lumber. the termites have a long way to get to food. If you dont use these type of blocks i would put in a termite inspection flashing it is a piece of metal that the termite would have to bridge around so you can see them tunneling up the side of your house.
Good luck
Jim III
[email protected]