Replies

1. 
   VinceCarbone | Jul 19, 2005 01:06pm | #1

   Gail ,

   call your local building inspector, he'll be able to tell you what the code is.

   I live and work in NY state and I've never seen a poured foundation without rebar.

   Who told you you don't need rebar,friends, neighbors or your mason? I wouldn't let them pour until you resolve this question.

   Vince Carbone

   Riverside Builders Franklin NY ICQ #47917652

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 20, 2005 06:58am | #12

   I remember from growing up in WNY, that nobody used rebar in residences. Some even used block. Everyone had cracked, buckling, leaking foundations. This crete guy must be trying to bring back the "good old days" 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   VinceCarbone | Jul 20, 2005 12:50pm | #14

   Paul,

   Had steel been invented yet when you were a boy in NY state ?

   Some people still use block around here,I can't understand why,I don't think I've seen one yet that wasn't heaving and leaning into there basement.Vince Carbone

   Riverside Builders Franklin NY ICQ #47917652

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 21, 2005 04:07am | #17

   I seem to remember steel. That was thje scoop part of a shovel they handed me when I was fifteen and they wanted me to shovel out all the mud aand broken CMUs from somebodies basement.
   I guess they hadn't invented backhoes yet. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Notchman | Jul 19, 2005 01:16pm | #2

   "..it isn't in the code"

   What code is being referred to?

   Even without any seismic considerations, UBC, CABO and IRC codebooks have spec'd rebar in concrete walls in residential construction for years; at a very minimum of 4' centers on the vertical and 2' on the horizontal.  And the verticals are normally tied into the footings with the appropriate laps (length of overlap is usually 40 diameters, i.e. #4 bar, or 1/2" is lapped 20").

   Here on the West Coast, the rebar schedule is much heavier than the above because of seismic concerns, and I would think that NY, with some seismic history of it's own, would also address extra reinforcement.

   In addition, it's been my experience that foundation walls, when over 4 feet in height, require engineering, particularly if they're to be backfilled.

   And it's also been my experience that the reinforcement in foundations must be approved by a building inspector prior to a pour.

   So what's going on?

   Is a bonafide, legal, competent contractor doing this?  Is there a building permit? What is described on the foundation plan? (There should be elevations with reinforcement details along with strength specifications for the concrete).

   If this is a foundation for your home, and you're paying for it, You should call a halt to the concrete pour until you're satisfied with proceeding.

   To educate yourself, first off, get on the phone as soon as the building dept. opens and ask to speak to a building inspector.

   And don't leave us in suspense!  Either you're not giving accurate info, or you're being taken for a ride.

1. 
   AdamGreisz | Jul 19, 2005 10:31pm | #9

   I agree with the Notchman that this information should be on your plans stamped by an engineer. It might be in the form of a chart describing steel and footing requirements for differant height walls.

   The plans should have been reviewed and signed off by the local building department. Around here (Seattle) the contractor does not make any callouts. The building dept. makes sure the engineer of record has designed within local building regulations. Then before we can pour a local building official inspects to make sure the contractor has built to the approved set of building plans.Adam Greisz<!----><!---->

   Owen Roberts Group<!---->

   <!----><!----><!---->10634 East Riverside Drive # 100<!----><!----><!---->

   <!----><!---->Bothell<!---->, <!---->WA<!----> <!---->98011<!----><!---->

   http://www.owenrobertsgroup.com<!---->

3. 
   dIrishInMe | Jul 19, 2005 02:14pm | #3

   My guess is that your local inspection dept (if there is one) they don't inspect foundations.

   Remember that each state has adopted a specific building code, and even if your state may have adopted the some model code as mine, typically, each state inserts their changes, and often even local building inspections departments add some of their own stuff (although typically do not "subtract" stuff).  So, you need an answer as to what is code from someone who, at the very least, is familiar with NY state building code.

   That said, I too have never seen a poured basement without rebar.

   Bottom line is if whoever you have hired to pour the walls (or build your house) was not planning on putting steel in the basement walls, and their price was based on no steel.  If you want steel, you are likely going to have to pay extra.

   Just out of curosity, briefly, what is the situation with this house?  You are the owner acting as the builder?  You have hired a builder to build a one of a kind custom house?  It is in a subdivision where there are a number of homes being built by this same builder, some of which are very similar to yours?  It is a large national builder?
    

   Matt
1. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 19, 2005 05:28pm | #6

   "Remember that each state has adopted a specific building code,"Just for the record all states don't have codes or complete building code.In those areas cities and counties select their own, if any.IL, MO, and KS are a couple.

4. 
   moltenmetal | Jul 19, 2005 03:29pm | #4

   Don't know what "code" is in NY, but up here in Toronto a typical 8" thick x 8' tall basement wall backfilled no more than 5', with the floor joists running across the short distance (i.e. reinforcing the top of the longest walls) and supporting a frame structure (i.e. no masonry and no more than 1 storey of brick veneer etc.) does NOT need rebar to meet code minimum.  That said, just about everybody puts rebar in.  Then again, just about everybody does concrete block up here because it's cheaper.  According to my structural engineer, vertical bars are more important than horizontal in such a wall.

   Your plans should also spec the strength of concrete required. 

5. 
   constantin | Jul 19, 2005 03:51pm | #5

   I too was told that it was not required to have rebar in my basement walls. However, I specified a commercial-grade basement wall with #4-60 rebar on 14" and 16" centers to ensure that the basement would never get destroyed again the way the previous foundation was. In areas where there is a lot of freeze-thaw and/or clay soil that expands/contracts a lot as it wets and dries, I would always use rebar.

   Putting in rebar properly is a royal pain and expect to pay extra. Getting the many corners right was just as much fan as putting in a shelf for the extrnal brick wall to keep the historical society happy. We used two rows of rebar in the 12" thick sections, and one in the 8" sections. The rebar ideally is 2" from the surface of the concrete wall, IIRC, and the walls should be tied into the foundation footings in some fashion (we used even more rebar there). Also, be sure to separately rebar all re-entrant corners to prevent crack propagation from window wells, etc.

   I had a lot of fun helping the foundation guys put in all that rebar. It taught me a healthy respect for the trade as I had to undo about 1/3 of whatever I put together when I later discovered that the rebar was not plumb enough etc. The resultant basement walls have performed 100% to date, so I'm very happy.

6. 
   csnow | Jul 19, 2005 07:02pm | #7

   Never seen one go in in the northeast without rebar.

   Just curious, how much savings are we talking here?

7. 
   SamT | Jul 19, 2005 08:35pm | #8

   "It isn't in the code".

   Code is the absolute minimum required for general safety.

   If you are building a home as cheap as possible, go with code.

   SamT

8. 
   vanwarren | Jul 20, 2005 05:22am | #10

   I've never seen a concrete foundation wall without steel (rebar).

   As the earth pushes against the concrete it is going to bow, like a rope does for a tightrope. Think of the walker on the rope as the earth pushing against your concrete wall.

   Concrete doesn't stay together when you try to bend it. The steel does that (tension). Concrete is great as a support where something is pushing down on it (compression).

9. 
   Piffin | Jul 20, 2005 06:55am | #11

   Gail. Regardless of whether the loaclly applicable code requires it or not, you need rebar. Especially with NY clay soil and freezing winters.

   So herre is what you do. you tell the subcontractor - " Here's the code, crete boy. Read my lips. Pour this concrete without at least two courses of continuous #4 rebar, and you will not be paid."

   If they diodn't include rebar in their estimate, it would be fair to cover the cost of the steel. it ain't much.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   paule38 | Jul 20, 2005 07:37pm | #16

   Piff, I agree, bar is essential otherwise nightmares will be the end result, I might even bump it up to #5 bar as well....

   Spent almost 5 years in Batavia/Holley..was glad to get transferred back to upstate, near Watertown......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 21, 2005 04:11am | #18

   I grew up in java, south of Warsaw, started cellege in Clarkson, Potsdam - so we've driven some of the same raods. Two brothers still in Hamburg and misc. family around WNY 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   paule38 | Jul 21, 2005 02:30pm | #19

   Back in the day when I lived in Gouverneur, I did a couple projects for Clarkson, they put up a huge Science center about 5 years ago, we had the portion of the contract dealing with the grading, pavers, sidewalks, etc.......and did the dorm renovation down the hill right before that......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....

1. 
   dIrishInMe | Jul 21, 2005 03:41pm | #20

   Isn't to cool when we all can actually agree on something? :-)

    Matt

10. 
    fredsmart48 | Jul 20, 2005 08:06am | #13

    Are you acting as the General contractor?   if not jack up your General Contractor and make sure he does his job. to make sure that the creetboy does the job right and some hack work. 

     

    you need to besides rebar, spell out how square you want the walls how plum  and how flat you want the top of the walls and the floor,  and if you want a slope of the basement floor to run to a sump or a floor drain before it gets pored. 

     

    I hope you got a construction attorney to go over all contracts between you and the contractors,  and made sure your are protected from bad sloppy work.  made sure you have redress for bad work preformed. 

11. 
    paule38 | Jul 20, 2005 07:32pm | #15

    I lived in upstate NY for years (and am moving back soon) with dreams of building my house from the ground up.  This is going to include a full basement as well.  There's no way I'd even consider not using rebar in the crete.  It's going to be in the slab and in the walls and the walls are going to be at least a foot thick.  Call it over-engineered on the thickness, but it's my money and I'm only planning on building one house for myself.

    Don't even consider pouring the walls without bar.  Seismic activity and freeze/thaw cycles are factors.  What part of the state are you in and do you know what your soil conditions are?  The area I'm used to up there is heavy clay for the most part.

    Did they put a good waterstop in the slab when they poured it?  That may not be code either, but my line of thinking is that I can live without fancy trim upstairs but I can't live with a wet basement..........

    If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....

12. 
    arrowpov | Jul 21, 2005 05:30pm | #21

    Call your building inspector, and ask if they can mail, fax, or refer to the code section for you. The code section is 404 and tables are 404.1, you should also have rebar dowels from the footing to foundation wall.