Hi folks,
I’ve got about 60 feet of 2′ wide by 8″ footings that I need to pour for a brick retaining wall. To get to the footings there is about a 4′ rise off the street and then the footings drop down 8′ in the last section of the wall. Total pour is about 4 cu yards. I haven’t found any good articles in regard to the steps, responsibilities and “rhythm” of getting this done correctly and safely. I’ve never ordered ready mix to day, but rather mixed my own.
Here’s my take on the setup and schedule – please let me know where I goofed.
1) Get the pumper truck on scene and setup
2) Have the ready mix arrive
3) What’s typically the lead time a ready mix shop needs to get material on site?
4) Not sure whether to start at the low or high end of the job – I’m concerned about lugging around the hose (this will not be a boom truck job but a “luggable” hose job). Thoughts?
5) About that hose, I think it is 4″ and there will probably be 60 or so feet spooled out. Any thoughts on how many folks are needed to drag it around?
6) Also does the pump operator typically say with the pump or the hose end?
7) How much “cleanout” is there of the pump and any thoughts on how to capture it.
Thanks,
John
Replies
4 yards is a relatively small job for a pump. Lat time I asked, the pump rented to $1000, plus you paid per yard of concrete pumped through it. Thats on top of the concrete it self. There isn't any way to either get chute up to the footings or buggy the concrete to where you need it?
Agreed on the size of the job being small. The issue is the change in elevations would make it very difficult to move the material efficiently via buggy or wheelbarrow. In talking with the local pump contractor - he thought it would come out to about $400 - $100 setup, $100 cleanup, $100/hr. He thought 4 cu yd would take about 2 hrs. I originally thought about mixing on site in a mixer but I would have to lug about 240+ bags of concrete mix to the mixer. While doable, cheaper and easier to control it is huge amount of labor - again its an access issue. If I did mix onsite one question I couldn't find an answer to was how to manage the mixing/setting issue, i.e. I think I could mix about 12 or so bags an hour but my impression is that the mix would start setting up in a 1/2 hour or so. What's the largest size pour that fits within the constraints of a powered mixer (2 bags at a time), setting time and working time? I looked into getting a retarder admixture but its not common up here in the Pacific NW. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
If I were doing that job for a client, I'd go the short load and pump truck route. You might want to call around and price some different pumpers... I've gotten a boom pumper for bigger jobs than yours for just a little more money than you're talking about... makes the pour a bit easier.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
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We don't want a bent one
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From a big brass cup
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If things loosen up
You might try pricing out a small crane and a bucket, instead of the pumper.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Get a pump rig with a 3" hose. Have the pump operator and the batch plant coordinate their arrival times without you as go-between. Get a couple of extra guys on site to handle the hose--one guy on the nozzle, another guy somewhere behind him helping to move the hose. A third guy (you) uses rake/shovel/screed to get the right amount of mud in the form as you go. Ask for a low-slump mix so that isn't too much bulge where the forms step down, otherwise you get concrete spilling out of the lower form. A smart batch plant person will ask what you are doing and how much experience you have. A smart pump operator will run the pour, telling you where to start, which way to move, signalling the truck for more mix, etc.
By all means rent the pump, and you certainly shouldn't be spending $1000 on a non-boom pump, $400 sounds more reasonably.
Start at the the high end. It's much easier to drag a hose full of concrete downhill.
Ask the ready-mix company about hose size. Usually they want a 3" hose for 3/4" aggregate.
With 60' of hose you should have 2 guys, plus yourself and the pump guy.
30 minutes to an hour is plenty of time to set up the pumper, but it's a good idea to ask the pumper to coordinate with the ready-mix company. In my town, the ready-mix company actually dispatches the pump.
The pump operator stands wherever you tell him to, but always in sight of the pour (with luck you should get some help out of him). He carries a remote start/stop switch on his belt to control the pour as per your orders.
Before the pour, they pump about 5 gallons of release goup through the hose. Just have a couple of buckets on hand, and then he takes it with him.
I think thats all the questions. Hope this helps, Adriel
John,
Given the distance, I'd also go for the short load and 3" pump.
Where I am it works like this:
You place the order for concrete a day (or more) ahead, specifying what you want and when. You should tell the plant what you're doing (and that you are using a 3" pump). The plant tells you when they can be there. If you order early you get to pick your time.
You hire the 3" pump and specify when. With a pumper I know, I give the pumper the concrete order number so he can fine tune the delivery time (he will also call me) if he's running ahead or behind.
The pumper will place concrete in a route you specify, but usually he will have a prefered route that will also be your best route. The pumper will have a helper to lay and move hose. The pumper will work the end of the hose with a remote controlling the pump. The truck driver will keep the pump hopper fed (with direction from the pumper at the end, there shouldn't be much to clean out of the pump when you're done).
You and your crew (maybe thats just you for this job) will vibrate and strike off.
When concrete is placed, the pumper and his helper will clean their gear, the driver will wash out his truck, you will finish.
NB:
To start, the pumper will lube his hoses with a clay mixture. Make sure this DOESN'T go into your forms at the start of placement.
Probably not relevant for your job, but the hoses near the pump are likely to jump when the pump reciprocates. If the moving hoses cross your forms, provide an inverted wheelbarrow (or such) for support so the moving hoses (which are very heavy) don't trash your forms.
Good luck.
Jim x 3
Edited 8/26/2009 7:54 pm ET by jimjimjim
If a concrete truck can get to the pour you can pour out a chute that's nearly horizontal to the truck and a tremmie hooked to the last section of chute off the truck. Guy stands at top of truck on that little platform assisting the mud out the chute with a round point (10-12' in the air). Just have the driver turn the drum slow. Pour some in high end to allow it to set up in the bottom some(if footings are step formed) than go to far low end working back up. If a strait sloping form is the case start at the low end.Pump truck around here is always a last resort that must have a significant margin of advantage over extra labor cost, be the only access route, or be a min. of 50yrds.
IF you do go with the pump, here is a few "tips" I have: That hose WILL buck like a mule when the pump is running. Most people will have a strong rope around the end of the hose, this goes over your shoulder so you can both move AND control the hose. Between truck loads, SWITCH the guy on the end of the hose! That's a LOT of HARD work, and the hose will beat the heck out of you. The hose will be in sections, as you work back towards the pump, drop off a section, less hose to move around. Have a sheet of old plywood nearby, when the pump is cleaned out, you'll have a place to put whatever is left in the hose. The way the hose is cleaned out is a rubber ball being "pumped" through the hose. That pile on the plywood? You'll need it for when you finish the top of the pour. When pouring into wall forms, have a guy on the other side with a shovel, his job is to keep the concrete going into the forms and not all over the place. Between trucks, "shovel guy" can drop back and float out what has been poured. One cannot have too many "helpers' on these type of jobs. Also, when the hose sections are seperated, have a piece of plywood for the ends to sit on, these will leak some concrete out as they lay there. How do I know these little things? A whole bunch of second story floor pours, and yes, I've ridden that "mule" ( sorry, Pedro) more than once.
I have better luck starting with the step. I shoot enough in the step for it to spliiout the low side and then pour all the low side first, then go back and pour the high side of the steps. The low sides set enough in that little time to keep the high side pours from pumpimg out.
Just the way I learned I guess.
I also pour low slump and use a water reducer add mix when I need it for multiple steps in walls and footings.
Ya that's basically what I meant. Pour the high side so it'll spill out into the low, till it half #### plugs that section and go to far low end continuing back up. Some times a piece of chicken wire or even just 4" mesh across here gives it just enough resistance to hold it's place long enough.
I sometimes tack a scrap plywood cap over a lower step after it's filled and vibrated so we can hit the upper areas without worrying about spilling.
can you get a front bucket of a rubber tire hoe in there. Or boom truck with bucket. four yards I get twenty day helps
Hey, just a thought. Why don't you go watch the pumper in action at another of his jobs so you can see what you're in for?
that was a great recommendation.
I think most of us have seen or done this for many years that it has become second nature.
I think most of what we learn is by watching, at least it is in my case.
I am still an amateur but have done numerous projects on my houses with concrete ordered from the batch plant.
I just call the dispatcher and describe my project and ask him for recommendations. He coordinates directly with the pumper and I don't get involved in their timing other than saying when I want the concrete to arrive.
I usually call two days in advance if I want a delivery first thing in the morning. Afternoon deliveries I can call the same day.
Four hundred sounds about right for a pump and the pump operator has always stayed with the hose end and operates the pump with a remote control. The truck driver takes care of keeping the pump supplied.
I usually have them cleanout into a large mudbox that is the size of two wheelbarrows.
I like Brownbaggs tractor bucket idea. Last time I ordered concrete it was two or three yards and I was contemplating tailgating it into wheelbarrows and rolling them 60 feet around a structure to the forms.
Thankfully I recognized that it would be much easier to tailgate into my little 16hp Kubota's front loader and drive that to the forms. It worked fantastic
Just a dumb but cheap DIY here (who has mixed poured at least 1000 yards) who cannot pass on costs to a HO or client.
Cannot even conceive of hiring a pumper for just 4 yards.
My take would be mixer at the top of the footing slope, your 240 bags are those tiny little 60# bags (get the 80#, lots cheaper - oh yeah, you are passing the cost on, so what?).
With some teenage help from neighborhood kids who would love a few bucks you can schlep in the bags, mix an pour at about a minute a 60# bag (3 at a time). Cannot you drive small pickup near the footing ?
HOW ARE YOU GETTING THE BRICKS TO THE JOB SITE? Use the same method for the concrete?
From my cheap knothole, faster than the pumper also.
With my crew of three, mixing 4 yards from sacks and distributing to a strip form by wheelbarrow would take most of the day. Pumping 4 yards would be done in less than one hour. Total cost of the pump pour would less to the customer than the manual labor approach, by far. IIRC sak-crete is around $2.75 per sack here, need ~60 for a yard, so it's around $150/yard, which is slightly more than I pay for a quality readymix.
My take would be mixer at the top of the footing slope, your 240 bags are those tiny little 60# bags (get the 80#, lots cheaper - oh yeah, you are passing the cost on, s what?).yall do know bag mix on material alone is almost double of ready mix mud, plus the time to mix. 27 bags at over $4 a bag plus hauling, picking up, stacking mixing. You can save $70 by picking up the phone
Well, usually what I mix is 'reclaim' I pick up in my 4x4 dump for $14/yard, can get it into near anywhere, that plus 4 or 5 bag mix and set to go.
Tilt the dump bed up facing the mixer, arm swing away, have a stack of cement bags by the mixer, measure by the shovel, mix, dump, etc. Have done > 2 yards and hour this way, cost about 60% of ready mix.
Have NEVER done anything 'for hire', only all volunteer or for self, so can ignore workman comp, etc, etc.
I do take pity (contempt??<G>) on the physically able HO so is so lazy or ignorant they cannot DIY; OTOH, thos folks pay the pros livelyhood.
Still would like to know that if you get a pumper for a footing for a brick wall to a difficult position, HOW DO YOU GET THE bricks and mortar there???
Can you pump bricks??? New to me <G>
BTW, hope everybody knows that I just like to 'rattle the pros cage' every once in awhile <G>
Edited 8/27/2009 2:09 pm ET by junkhound
Junk,
Maybe this should be a separate thread, but -
Just a dumb but cheap DIY here (who has mixed poured at least 1000 yards) who cannot pass on costs to a HO or client. ... With some teenage help from neighborhood kids who would love a few bucks you can schlep in the bags, mix an pour at about a minute a 60# bag (3 at a time).
In California those teenagers would be your employees. Do you have workmen's compensation? If I don't, I could lose my contractors license. Are you deducting FICA and filing the quarterly forms? Are you submitting premiums for unemployment to the EDD? Do you have the relevant notices to employees posted at your place of business - you can't just tell them or give them copies, the notices must be posted. And the state has staff who will call you or visit to verify. Are you aware that construction is considered hazardous and there are big penalties for exploiting minors, with some exceptions? And there are other requirements as well.
Your approach might work for DIY, but paying a batch plant to mix and deliver and a pumper to place makes a lot of sense from where I am. But it also means there are a bunch of kids that are sitting on their butts playing video games instead of working, learning, and earning.
Regards,
Jim x 3
first call would be to a ready mix plant. You might get a converyor truck, though they are not nearly as nimble as a pumper. There are also small pull behind pumpers. The ready mix plant should be able to fill you in. They may even have a pumper they contract with.
The pumpers I have used all have a boom that is swung right over the pour. The operator runs it from a joystick. Someone has to hold the hose but it's no big deal. The only time you have to wrassle a hose is if you are pumping in through a window.
But call your ready mix company first.
sounds like the perfect setup for a conveyor. in chicago i would pay about $500 for the conveyor, we pay travel time, time on job, and per yard. the oporater will put the concrete were ever you want it. you should be able to pour 4 yds with two guys, or by yourself if your up for it. you don't have to worry about the wash out, every thing will go into the over dig. for me it's a no brainer.