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concrete shower

| Posted in Construction Techniques on April 2, 2005 04:13am

Anyone know about making a shower out of concrete? I want to make the pan and the walls out of the same material. Any good books on the subject? Experience?

Edited 4/2/2005 9:20 am ET by passiongirl


Edited 4/2/2005 9:21 am ET by passiongirl

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  1. User avater
    PaulBinCT | Apr 02, 2005 05:13pm | #1

    Best resources for concrete design (IMHO) are Fu-Tung Cheng's website (and books)

    http://www.concreteexchange.com/index.jsp and Buddy Rhodes http://www.buddyrhodes.com/

    I'm a big fan of concrete as a medium, have done a couple countertops.  My recollection is there are others here that are much more advanced than myself, I'm sure someone will chime in.  Good luck...

    1. laurab1 | Apr 02, 2005 05:16pm | #2

      Thanks for your input. I will check out the link and research his books. How do his books compare to Bob Harris'?
      Thanks
      LB

      Edited 4/2/2005 10:17 am ET by passiongirl

      1. User avater
        PaulBinCT | Apr 02, 2005 05:26pm | #4

        Isn't Harris mainly a finishing guru?  Stamping, staining etc?  Rhodes and Cheng are the big kahunas of concrete fixtures such as countertops, sinks, furniture etc. 

        1. laurab1 | Apr 02, 2005 05:33pm | #5

          I'm looking for the Big Kahunas! Checked out Cheng's and Rhode's web sites. They look exceptional. I e-mailed Cheng's outfit to see what they recommended. I am an artist/designer. I want to learn how to build a steam shower/spa out of concrete. If this project goes well I would like to know how to resproduce the design i have and do it for profit. I am very interested.about learning decorative options with concrete. Looks like Cheng might be a good option as that is his background was also artist/designer. Thanks for the advice!LBEdited 4/2/2005 10:39 am ET by passiongirlEdited 4/2/2005 10:40 am ET by passiongirl

          Edited 4/2/2005 10:40 am ET by passiongirl

          1. User avater
            PaulBinCT | Apr 02, 2005 05:39pm | #6

            Glad to help..

            BTW, since you exceeded the two post limit you oughta fill out a profile before the Profile Police chastise you ;) ...

            And welcome to Breaktime, lotta exceptionally sharp people here (and a few like me).

          2. laurab1 | Apr 02, 2005 05:41pm | #7

            Oops! Thought I'd followed all legal processes. Will do. Thanks.
            LB

  2. User avater
    EricPaulson | Apr 02, 2005 05:17pm | #3

    Try here..

     

    http://www.johnbridge.com/

     

    Eric

    I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

    With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

    [email protected]

  3. timkline | Apr 02, 2005 05:45pm | #8

    where do you want to put it ?

    in a wood framed home ?

     

    carpenter in transition

    1. laurab1 | Apr 02, 2005 06:01pm | #9

      Yes. I am remodeling a house. I am tearing out an old sauna and want to install a concrete steam shower in it's place (about a 6x6 space).
      LBEdited 4/2/2005 11:02 am ET by passiongirl

      Edited 4/2/2005 11:02 am ET by passiongirl

      1. timkline | Apr 02, 2005 06:26pm | #10

        As far as I know, any precast panels for such an application would have to be custom.  They would be thick and extremely heavy. And not very practical for humans to install in a residence.

        If I were to do this, I would cast the concrete in place by forming and pouring it on site.  Once complete, the whole thing would weigh as much as a small automobile. If you would like to do this in a basement, it would only mean jackhammering a section of the existing floor to install the necessary plumbing and foundation to support the weight. 

        If you want this on any other floor, it means jackhammering the basement floor for the foundation, and then building a structure that will support your small automobile. This could be done with structural steel or concrete block.  It would mean opening the floor above the shower location to pour the concrete in the forms.  It's almost like building a big chimney. The whole thing would be quite labor intensive and invasive if the clients are living in the home.

        It would involve a structural engineer to design the load transfer.

        And it would be quite expensive.

        But cool.

         

        carpenter in transition

        Edited 4/2/2005 11:29 am ET by TIM_KLINE

        1. laurab1 | Apr 03, 2005 01:23am | #11

          Thanks for the info. I am looking into all of these issues, Need to talk with the plumber and ask about the load transfer issue. I believe that part of the house is supported by 2x8's or 6's. I'll ask a concrete guy about the weight for that size of room. Good point.Thanks,
          LB

          1. timkline | Apr 04, 2005 12:53am | #12

            I'll ask a concrete guy about the weight for that size of room

            I'll save you some trouble.

            Let's figure the stall at 6'x6' with 8' high walls and concrete floor and ceiling.  The minimum wall thickness (reinforced with rebar is a must) would be 4" while 6" would be better.  You will have 21 lf wall  (-3' for a door)

            21 lf wall x 8' height = 168 sf

            floor                          =  36 sf

            ceiling                       =  36 sf

            Total                         = 240 sf

            240 sf  x .33 (4" wall thickness)  =  79.2  cubic feet of concrete

            79.2 cf  x  150 lbs per cf  (typical for concrete)  = 11,880 lbs

            When I said this would weigh the same as a small car in an earlier post, I was wrong.  This thing will weigh as much as a small UPS truck.

            2x6's or 2x8's won't even come close

            It's gotta be a masonry or structural steel frame for support.

            While I was roaming around today, I found this site, I'm sure it will be of interest to you:

            http://www.geocities.com/flyingconcrete/tims.htm

            By the way, lightweight concrete isn't the solution to your weight problem. I just thought as a designer, you might appreciate the link.

             carpenter in transition

          2. User avater
            EricPaulson | Apr 04, 2005 02:54am | #13

            240 sf  x .33 (4" wall thickness)  =  79.2  cubic feet of concrete

            79.2 cf  x  150 lbs per cf  (typical for concrete)  = 11,880 lbs

            How 'bout just floating the walls on wire lathe??

            You could diminish the above solution by 75% I'm sure.

            Now where looking at 3000lbs. Still less than a regular tile job. What you get is a float job with no tile atteched.

            Sometimes things in here get way off track.

            Eric

            EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

            With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

            [email protected]

          3. timkline | Apr 04, 2005 05:24am | #15

            Sometimes things in here get way off track.

            You're right, sometimes they do.

            Then sometimes they don't.

            Wire lath and plaster is an excellent suggestion as a weight saving measure.

            As far as looking like poured concrete ?

            I guess it depends on who you ask.

            To me, it's not even close.

            Why don't you email Buddy Rhodes and ask him why he doesn't rub cement slurry over all of his pieces to "finish them off"  ?

            Plastering a shower stall gets you a shower done in stucco.

            Doing one in poured raw concrete gets you a beautiful piece.

            Apples and oranges.

             

            Do I want one ?

            No, personally I think it would turn into a cold, slimy, green moldfest with things growing in all of the little air pockets in the concrete.

            But that's not my call.

             

            carpenter in transition

            Edited 4/3/2005 10:42 pm ET by TIM_KLINE

          4. User avater
            CloudHidden | Apr 04, 2005 05:46am | #16

            We regularly do exterior vertical shotcrete walls (with rebar) and the thicknesses per the structural engineer are closer to 2" or 3". Tri-D Panels usually use 1.5" on either side of the center insulation for a structural application.You mention Flying Concrete. I met Steve Kornher last June. He's produced some real nice stuff. One thing I learned is that he does most of his work by gut feel rather than engineered specs (for example, he figured his walls were maybe 1000 psi vs the 4000 that my engineer aims for) and that waterproofing is a trial and error process. Most of his work is in Mexico (hence his nickname MexicoSteve) and they build something, wait to see what leaks in the next rain and patch that, repeating as necessary. This was by his own description.In a shower application, and especially with steam, I'd be interested in how the permeability of concrete was handled...drainage, waterproofing, etc.

          5. timkline | Apr 05, 2005 06:48am | #20

            i was hoping you would see that link...

            i had read something about his leak repair methods a few years ago in some other article.

            talk about a niche market.   wow.

             carpenter in transition

          6. User avater
            CloudHidden | Apr 05, 2005 07:01am | #22

            >talk about a niche market.Yeah, but he keeps working, so it seems he has that market well understood.Mini story. He's stated a few times that he's not a fan of the big residences, such as mine and another notable one. So it was interesting to share a stage with him. After he saw a few of the ones I've designed and have been built recently, he said, "Hmmmm, I think I'll have to change my mind about air formed stuff."Those ferrocement guys are an interesting lot. Get around a group of them and you swear you've been teleported back to the 60's. The air-form guys looked clean-cut by comparison. Interesting demographic differences for methods that have so much in common. But they all drink beer, so...

      2. Don | Apr 04, 2005 04:32am | #14

        Passion Girl: Lemme give you a few random reasons why you do NOT want the floor made out of concrete. I have owned a house w/ a terrazzo shower base, & have been in concrete floored showers. All of them suffered erosion of the concrete matrix, exposing the aggregate. Didn't take very many years, either. House was less than 7 yrs old. Solved the problem by using a lot of sandpaper w/ a ROS, backed up by copious quantities of elbow grease & patience. If your water is the least bit acidic, it will erode that stuff like warm butter. Better off going w/ a tile floor.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!

        1. laurab1 | Apr 04, 2005 04:38pm | #17

          Thanks for the input. Wow! Everything is pointing in the direction of using tile. Guess that's the direction I'm leaning towards. I have one more person (a concrete specialist) to consult with today and I'll let post what I find out.LB

          1. Scooter1 | Apr 04, 2005 07:34pm | #18

            There is no friggin way I would want to install a concrete shower. Here are my top ten reasons:1. Weight2. Absorbtion3. Mold4. Lack of Membrane5. Code won't let you6. 2 Part Clamping Drain Won't Work7. Wicking Issues to Framing8. Hard to get Walls Straight and Plumb without Forming in Place9. It will never dry out10. Dificult to Maintain.That being said, if you hire a structural engineer, and a very good architect with a knowledge of Code and Tile, I am sure that one could be constructed and installed. It would have to be membraned. The walls would be a very big challenge.
            Regards,
            Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          2. laurab1 | Apr 05, 2005 06:21am | #19

            Ok. I know a lot of you who have been giving me input on this project are not going to like what a local concrete contractor told me today. He says 1) I do not need to do a pour- I can basically "stucco" the concrete on over wonderboard as I would tile, 2)it will not weigh that of small car or more, 3)it will not be any more susceptible to "mold" than tile will, 4) although yes, I will have to reseal every few years. So...I'm gonna do a cement shower...and I'll let y'all know how it comes out.Passiongirloncement

            Edited 4/4/2005 11:24 pm ET by passiongirl

          3. timkline | Apr 05, 2005 06:51am | #21

            good luck.

            please get back to us in a year or two.

            and let us know how your brush burns are healing.

             carpenter in transition

          4. User avater
            CloudHidden | Apr 05, 2005 07:03am | #23

            Please keep track of the sealants you use, the drain installation, the treatment of corners (especially wall-to-floor). It'll be interesting to see your results.

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