Condo crawl space dilemma continues
whatever419
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Situation: Attached 2-story, 20-year-old condo buildings located in south central Indiana (Bloomington), with 4 connected first floor units above approx. 1000 sq ft. vented crawl spaces approx 24″ h. The crawl spaces are connected in pairs. A year ago we shared our pre-buy inspection report with the HOA. The main crawl space issues were that a lot of fiberglass insulation was hanging down and the vents needed to be repaired or replaced.
I assumed they would clean the place up and replace any batts that needed it. Instead, the HOA board contracted to have the spaces “conditioned” without seeming to understand the complexity of this particular situation. I raised questions here (http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/breaktime/energy-heating-insulation/condo-conditioned-crawlspaces-ventilation) and then with them. Eventually, I got an agent in the city Planning Dept involved, and he pointed out design problems and requirements for fire retardant barriers, dampers, etc. Unfortunately, by the time they paused in the process to reconsider their approach, the contractor had removed all the fiberglass insulation, installed a new vapor barrier (and probably removed the old one) and installed 2″ rigid extruded polystyrene insulation on the exterior walls.
The city agent suggested 4 possible options. The simplest and probably least costly seemed to be that of sticking with the vented system. The board agreed, but informed me that they would use spray foam instead of batts. Sounds nice, but…
Possible problems that I see are:
* The HOA board seems reluctant to communicate with residents living over the crawl spaces (to determine or alert re allergy/health issues, precautions during application, etc.) In a situation such as this, what info or precautions are residents typically given re application day and afterward?
* I read on another site that 2″ deep spray foam might cost $2 sq ft. x 1000 sq ft @ = $8k. (sorry for number mistype earlier) The board has not said what the actual quoted price is. Does this sound accurate? And would that include the required fire barrier?
* Perhaps more to the point – can a thorough job can be done, applying this spray to a surface about 24″ above the floor while lying down in an unlighted crawlspace?
I’d appreciate any feedback/opinions on proceeding from here.
Replies
"cost $2 sq ft. x 100 sq ft @
"cost $2 sq ft. x 100 sq ft @ = $8k" I think your math is wrong. 2 dollars/sf x 100 sqft is $200, not 8,000. If 1,000 sqft, it would be $2,000. $2/sf for foam doesn't sound too far off. I paid $1/sqft to have my house insulated w/ fiberglass. 2 inches, however is only like an R14. Standard energy code might be around R-25 to R-30.
Not sure if a fire barrier would be required if the crawl is no longer proposed to be used as a heating/cooling return/supply plenum. It still has combustion air and it is a combustion air plenum ... not sure if the foam would have to meet a fire requirement ... fiberglass, though is similar ... left exposed, I don't think it is fire rated and must be covered. Definately a question for the building official.
Having a HOA reluctant to inform owners of any change seems like opening themselves up to liability. But I have no idea how HOAs work in this manner. Not sure if there are issues with e.g. fumes/health. May depend on the foam type. But it's a sealed crawl, so not sure if this should be a major concern.
Don't know about access and working space. Work lighting is easily provided. Don't know about spraying foam above you 24 inches away.
Sounds like the contractor got way ahead of himself doing a bunch of work. Who is or is going to pay for his work? Or can you tell him to pound sand because he was premature in thinking what he could be doing?
While the building department may be part of the planning dept., this is a building code issue, not a planning issue ... probably semantics on your part. The building official or building inspector are the ones that should call the shots. If a permit isn't required, the contractor would be well advised to seek the opinion of the building official to protect him from the liability he may well incure in doing work that may violate code requirements.
regs, liability
"Not sure if a fire barrier would be required if the crawl is no longer proposed to be used as a heating/cooling return/supply plenum."
The Buildings Dept. (evidently, it is under Planning) inspector said the spray foam does require fire barrier. I can double check re fiberglass, but since replacing it would be considered "maintenance" it would fall under the regs in place in 1990 and prolly doesn't need barrier.
I have advised the board of my opinion that they might be liable. Of course, their lawyer costs/insurance costs would probably be paid by us, the HOA.
Re foam/health, I sent them this link: http://www.spraypolyurethane.org/checklist Discussing SPF Application with Building Owners and Occupants checklist
I believe the contractor was doing what the board agreed to. Whether the contractor or board is responsible for not confirming regulations, I have yet to determine.
"If a permit isn't required, the contractor would be well advised to seek the opinion of the building official to protect him from the liability he may well incur in doing work that may violate code requirements."
I agree, but wonder if they have their thinking caps on. I would be happy to alert them, but have been instructed by the board not to question workers anymore. Seems I "bothered them" (according to the board). There was a moment when I finally got from one worker that they were going to tap into my HVAC system to condition the space and I was probably so incredulous that the board would do this without my permission, that my reaction may have freaked them.
I know what you are saying. A bit awkward. I don't know how the power of HOA works and the potential associated liability they might incur w/ their powers and how that may relate to making changes w/out the approval of owners.
If the HOA hired the contractor ... he would generally be liable for all work, workmanship, meeting codes, getting permits, etc. If the HOA directs him in a manner that e.g. violates laws, the contractor is still liable ... and should respond with e.g. 'I can't do that, because it violates codes.'
But just because he's liable and chooses to proceed, doesn't mean it's a good idea to allow him to complete work that creates a life safety hazard ... 'cause then you deal with the difficulties of e.g. 5-10 yrs down the road, something happens and he's liable, but he's also long gone. Better to meet current codes than planning on taking legal action later (what happens is someone actually died as a result of his work, choice of materials, etc.?).
Maybe goodle general liability, responsibility, and powers of HOAs in general to see what the HOA can or cannot do in terms of 'making changes' on behalf of the owners as a whole. Can they do stuff like ... change the entire landscaping w/out consulting the owners? Interesting issues, I think. I've owned a couple condos, but don't recall reading anything about the HOA rights and responsibilities, but that wasn't something I focused on.
Power of HOA board
I've read the bylaws and related docs and I think they purty much have the power to do what they want. If a member grows concerned and can get 2/3 (?) of the membership to agree to call a special meeting, that might be a way to go to get info and answers. The board could also be removed at such a meeting. My goal, however, is to work with the board to try to fix this.
I have also asked them what kind of spray foam they plan to use. Unfortunately, it takes weeks to get answers.
Interesting. They may be taking on a bit of liability if they knowingly direct a contractor to violate e.g. a code. I agree, though ... do what you can to work with them to ensure their project is both successful ... and safe. That can be tough if they have their mind made up to do something really dumb (not saying that is the case, here) based on half baked science and theories about how to do it.
SPF - polyurethane. There are other foams, I think being used on the market. Is that the material they are planning to use?