Conduit vs Romex I am just outside of Chicago and have the green light to run Romex however my local electricians all run conduit like dear old Dad. Does anyone have an idea of the costs should differ between the two systems?
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green light? you mean as in OK by the local building dept?
Yea, they are not advertising but the use of Romex is allowable in my area.
square 668
I run conduit in the basement but once out of the basement it's all romex.. the time to run romex is a tiny fraction of the time required to run conduit.
You'll pay for that time differance..
The reason for that distinction is romex is behind walls and protected while in the basement it isn't afforded the same level of protection..
I am try to get a feel for how much of a savings I can expect to see, the electrican I use most often has never bid romex and his bid is pretty much what I would expect for a job run in conduit. You would think from his reaction I had asked him to sell his children. The local guys have had no exposure to romex and have been told it is the root of all evil.
square 688
Do him a favor and get several bids.. he needs to consider conforming to currant rules in his bids and if he doesn't know how much faster and easier it is to run romex he can't ever learn to be competitive..
On the other hand the cost of materials is up dramatically. So be fair and allow him last look..
Are you trapped in some kind of a timewarp? What year is it where you are? Or are you living on a planet other than earth? LOL!
Conduit? The entire house? OUTRAGEOUS! Not that I have seen every house ever built, but I have never seen conduit used other than in unfinished garages and even there rarely.
WOW.
Even today the City of Chicago and many of the adjoining suburbs REQUIRE EMT ("conduit") or better in their houses. Chicago initially required "pipe" and in many cases (including the house my grandparents purchased in 1910, and had wired for electricity in the early '20s) the electrician used the now discontinued gas pipes for electricity. And, the junction boxes were lucky to be 3 inches; some were 2-inch octagons (DON'T LOOSE THE COVER PLATE WHEN DOING WORK!!!).
Because the gilsonite/cloth insulation was shielded from light and air and heat, it was still flexible when I added a circuit in the basement in the '80s.
conduit between ALL outlet boxes and all switch boxes? WOW! Holy Crrrrappp!
You are allowed to use greenfield whips for I think 6 feet or less.
The electrician's unions in and around Chicago are very influential with the building departments.
Conduit = More Labor = More Work / Pay for union electricians. When you consider that well over half of all work in the Chicago area is done by union labor it all makes sense.
My house was built 2 years ago in Northwest Indiana. Every circuit is run in conduit from the panel to the last device. I think the low voltage wire for the garage door eyes were even run in flex since that wall is unfinished. I'll have to look tonight.
Boiler has it right. The five counties arround Chicago in Illinois all require that all the wiring in a residental building be in EMT. It's more work for the labor unions.
Anyone have a feel for what the difference in cost might be?
I bet that they are pretty good with EMT in order to do all that.
yes...... we are ! and FYI the Unions also provide an additional 5 YEARS on workmanship in addition to whatever the builder provides... at no charge that program is in effect across the country.
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I heard it was done (started) due to rodents. I think I heard it from that nit wit Bob V. Is there any truth to it?I admire a good pipe job. I wish I could post pics of my garage.
I had heard that too. but early on just armored cable was used and with gas being phased out for illumination the next evolution was to simply run the cable through the gas lines. or use the gas nipple too hold up a pancake box and use the spot for a fixture and junction box...
it was interesting as the lines would sometimes still have gas in themthat same black gas pipe was used to make conduit runs probably because the companies that sold the stuff were going to be out of business otherwise. there may have been some backdoor deals made....... hey it is Chicago the stuff was awful to use and a bear to pull through.. it was NOT a great idea but was the only pipe available since EMT really didn't become popular until the 30s IIRC.why can't you post pictures ?.
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i think you are on to something there. My primary wires are run in black gas pipe. I also found some fittings that look a lot like gas in some of those old boxes. when I redid my kitchen I did it all to code, there is a lot of planing in that endeavor.
south carolina I think is all romex in homes except commercial and maybe common wall houses/condos- I do not know about those
we also do not have the stupid air gaps devices on dishwashers/disposals
Edited 3/8/2008 9:02 pm ET by edwardh1
NM is just about everywhere, here is some from a big buck house in NJ......... I posted this in the past, it is not my picture nor my work, but the electrician who did it is very good with the stuff.
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You got the link to that? I remember it posted here once.
the last one was wrong....try this onehttp://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65679.1.
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thanks!
OK I finally dug it out,
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/122256/page/2#Post122256.
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Muchas grassyass.
Is there anywhere else in the US besides the Chicago area that requires conduit for conduit? Romex is OK here in GA.
I don't think that anywhere else but Chicagoland requires conduit.
But, just for your interest, I visited some relatives in Norway while they were building a new house. They use "conduit" -- Plastic Tubing like you sometimes see here. And, of course since it it 220 volts, the wire was typically their equivilant of 16 and 18 gauge. And, you should see the stuff they use for surface work--it is no bigger than 16 ga zip cord. Although, it does have a grounded shield on it.
I think some towns in Lake County, Indiana require it .I will say that around here just about every electrician I talk with has run pipe in his own house, and most of them prefer fuses over breakers.. which is my choice as well.
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>prefer fuses over breakers.. <
Easier to slip a coin in them? I'm clueless as to why the preference of fuse over CB. Care to learn me something?
a fuse will always blow, and will even tell you why..short or overload....of course some clowns will ALWAYS try to defeat the fuses which is why we have circuit breakers.
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Fuses over breakers? Never heard of that one. I know that breakers can get weak over time, but my understanding is that it only happens if they trip. And they really shouldn't be tripping. Fuses also get old and blow for no reason, and that's no fun.
old fuses just blowing........ I can't say I've ever seen that..and breakers should be exercised periodically, that is turned on and off several times preferably without a load on it .once a year,
or
when you change the clocks,
or
whenever you feel like it.
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I've never thought of the advantage of a fuse over a breaker in a residential panel. Makes sense.
I have always liked the idea of all condiut though. Do you have any pictures of a typical run in a wall? Do they run it on the outside then use furring strips?
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
the stuff is run just like rope, right through the studs and plates ! I have an open wall here I'll snap a few pics of the pipes tomorrow..since we're beating up on Chicago, they used to put ALL critical circuits on fuses, stuff like exit signs,
battery lights,
night lighting,
jockey pumps,
fire alarm.
CCTV
all were fed from fuse panels so no one could accidently turn off the wrong thingof course the panels were made in ....Chicago.
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Ohhh so they're not using sticks of conduit. More like Greenfield.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
no, it's pipe, and it gets bent before it goes in the wall.
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I'd like to see as many pics of that as I can. Sounds like a bear to do. Obviously it's not as bad as I'm thinking otherwise it wouldn't be cost effective. How do they get by over riding the NEC?
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
huh?.
the NEC doesn't apply in Chicagothe CEC does that's why some folks here are ticked off
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Edited 3/9/2008 9:26 pm by maddog3
I like the idea. I'm from the school that believes the code is the very minimum that you can do. How the heck do you get a ten foot stick into a drilled stud wall?
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
it will slide through the holes in the first two stud bays and then you simply pull it through the rest with a little elbow grease or you drill out the whole wall and stick it in from the end,
the real trick is getting it strapped near the boxes, and inspectors want it strapped on the horizontal, not just supported by the hole it runs throughit is solidly in the wall, no rattles, and looks real cool too, of course the plumber and HVAC, has to go somewhere too so we have to noodle the pipe around those guys , Lo Voltage stuff all gets sleeved to the basement or closetand it has to be done in a "workmanlike manner " the Inspectors sometimes walk around and whack the pipes with a bender to see if they're tight.
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I'd definetley like to see pictures. I'm asking a lot of questions because Chicago is known for the EMT in residential codes but I've never really been able to ask anyone about it that actually does it. Like I said before. It seems to me like the best way to do a house.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
i"ll get those pics today.once you run a few thousand feet of it it starts to look pretty good....
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Edited 3/10/2008 6:27 am by maddog3
Am I misreading something, or are you guys just looking for pix of residential conduit runs?
If so, here's some from my house. Combination of original work (from '74), DIY prior to me and Do-It-Myself over the past few years.
Of course you know that CFL + power plug combo is a bad idea in the basement pic? ;-) Or is that white cord feeding another light?
It's another light, but if it tweren't, why would that be a bad idea?
(p.s. I'm starting to hate CFL's and all the odd rules to follow with them. Give me a good ol' light bulb please. )
Edited 3/10/2008 11:33 am by JMadson
Running a cord out of a light socket adapter is not a good idea for a few reasons.
1. A light socket is not rated the same as the cord. Wattage ratings on whole light fixtures are usually mostly concerned with bulb heat, but the conductors are also a factor.
2. The circuit the light is on was likely not designed to accept the possible load coming from a power tap in a socket. In other words, lighting circuits are (should be) designed with the loads of the lights in mind, not outlets. (yes, I know many people put outlets and lighting on the same circuits... another bad idea) That outlet was installed assuming a probable max 150 watt bulb I am guessing, so plugging in just about any appliance could overload the circuit.
3. Connections in light sockets frequently loosen up over time due to vibration, etc. This can potentially lead to an arcing situation in the socket. (Since you're using a CFL, the heat problems of an incandescent bulb are avoided.) Any arc is bad, but one up there near the joist... well that's ugly.
I've done the same myself, so my preaching is limited! The problem comes when someone decides to plug a vacuum or some other appliance in there. Basically, light sockets are for bulbs, and power outlets are for plugs. I would only use a socket tap on a temporary basis.
Be safe and run another piece of EMT and install a box for that other light. You know you want to. :-)))
I had the same thought, especially when the porcelain fixture is a "keyed" one with the recpt built in. I usually try to get the switched (pull chain) one witht the recpt if there is any chance you would want to plug something in or individually turn off that fixture if there are multiples on the switch.
That way his cfl would be about 2 more inches out of harms way.
Here's my local code:
5-1F-2: AMENDMENTS TO THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE AND THE ICC ELECTRICAL CODE:
5-1F-3: WIRING METHODS:
The wiring methods specified in chapter 3 of the NEC will be permitted by this article, except as noted below: (Ord. 02-31, 2-19-2002, eff. 4-8-2002)
3. Article 336 - Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall only be permitted to be used in the following: Temporary wiring in accordance with NEC Article 590 or low voltage lighting systems less than 30Volts in accordance with NEC Article 411.
4. Article 338 - Service-Entrance Cable: Type SE cables shall only be permitted to be used in Temporary wiring in accordance with NEC Article 590.
actually Gunner wants the pics those are good shots, would you mind tearing open some more of your walls, like say the kitchen and a living room ?
it would really help...:).
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Edited 3/10/2008 5:55 pm by maddog3
Got any more then what he had? I'd like to see the whole house roughed in.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I took some yesterday of what I have but it's not the whole house,give me a few days I'll call around.
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Kay.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
Ok, I'm starting to see some of the logic behind this. In my last post, I used the word 'maniacal,' which was probably a bit harsh.
PVC is nicer to work with than EMT, though, in my experience. Is PVC not allowed?
. . no a few reasons why it's a poor substitute....
it needs a separate ground wire,
it offers some protection inside a wall, you can easily drive a screw into it,
it's not intended for interior use
you WILL cut a groove in the elbows when pulling wire in it
any exposed PVC can be damaged..
and there is no easy way to bend it ......unless you use heat. or buy elbows
that cold bending snake that is on the market is a waste of time IMO and hard on the kneesand there is ENT....... but I have never used it .
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Obviously Smurf tubing is the way to go.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
obviously.I would probably use it, if I did could not bend pipe anymore.
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It's a good argument for EMT. I'll agree with you first: for this kind of application, EMT is a better choice. But I'll offer some points.
- I wouldn't want to count on EMT to provide a continuous safety ground. I don't think that's even allowed here - I'm 90% sure that our code demands a separate ground wire even if using EMT.
- It's easy to bend. . . if you have an oven for it. It's like a limp noodle, then. Not so good without an oven - true. I've always had access to one.
- The chances of hitting a properly placed wire with a screw are not high, so I'm not intrigued by the idea of using conduit as a sort of continuous nail plate. If it was that big a deal, all copper pipe would have to be armoured, too
- Um, glue joints are really fast!
My father was an electrician when I was a toddler. When he turned to farming, we ran a lot of conduit on the farm, over the years, and used nothing but PVC. I guess I'm biased from experience.
Edit: Do mice still chew on new Romex? They loved the paper in the old stuff. I'm pretty sure it's just the paper they were after. . . Although my cocker spaniel/poodle cross chews up the power cords on all our appliances. Turning on the lights for the Christmas tree had some extra pyrotechnics.
Edited 3/12/2008 9:22 am ET by Biff_Loman
I understand the argument for the separate ground but in the Chicago area it's just never done. Yes, the connections need to be done correctly but they do for the ground with romex also. I think with the EMT set screw type fittings this is fairly easy.
EMT bends easily, quickly and accurately. It is pretty forgiving with a couple 90 deg bends. Easy to adjust by hand.
You can't glue with the wire in the plastic pipe. With EMT you can feed the wires as you go along.
Please understand I am not arguing. I just want to help demystify EMT because it's not that hard.
Good point on pulling wires as you go. That solvent will eat right through wire insulation.I'm just biased, I guess! In any case, it'll be a cold day before I pipe my whole house. It's just not done here.
Sorry don't have time to read all the posts don't know if this was mentioned but as a point of interest This Old House did a Chicago house when Steve was still on. They were surprised on the need to use conduit in a house and that code required it almost to the point that they made fun of it. Steve kept saying I know, I know but that is what we need to use. My thought is as some have mentioned very very strong union presence as well as the suppliers lobbing. I am not anti union my electrician is a strong union guy. it just gets me when the unions dictate what I can and cannot use in my house when it is a method used and accepted in every state in the nation.Does anyone know can BX be used in chicago instead of conduit before the rule change. Because if I remember sch 40 or 80 could not be used either.Don't know how things turned out, but Square I would keep shopping till I found someone who said romex no problem we use it all the time.Wallyo
BX can be used for "old work" and the inspectors on permmited jobs keep a tight leash on it's use.
IOW you are not going to rewire a whole house with the stuff , unless you leave the walls intact.....
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PVC would be the best choice on a farm ...EMT would just be a rusted mess in a very short time. they can also be very difficult places to electrifyI have used PVC coated rigid ( RobRoy¯ ) in many places, like pickle houses at the steel mills and water treatment plants..... but I wouldn't wish that on anyone since it is a royal PITA to work with.
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I have used PVC coated rigid ( RobRoy¯ ) in many places, like pickle houses at the steel mills and water treatment plants..... but I wouldn't wish that on anyone since it is a royal PITA to work with.
Plus, it costs an arm and a leg.
90% of my work as an electrical engineer is water and wastewater treatment plant design. I've spec'd out a lot of Robroy in the past, but we don't use it much any more because of the price. In the corrosive areas of water plants (the chemical rooms where they keep the chlorine and fluoride) we use PVC, and in the nastiest parts of wastewater plants that also need explosionproof wiring, more and more we're using aluminum conduit - it holds up to the corrosive atmosphere pretty well and it's a lot cheaper than Robroy. EMT or even rigid will rot out in no time flat in those places.
I could work with Aluminum all day long.. it's just a little messy to handle
but for some reason the steel mills only want rigid....I guess you can't have your competition in the house.. :)XP ain't cheap either way .. :).
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I know very little about Romex and mice......but there have been several ways to connect EMT , set screw fittings are the latest and cheapset way to fasten pipe together but before that there were myraid styles , most are no longer used and the best is just too expensive the best IMO, were steel compression.. very expensive to use and you needed two pliers to tighten them properlythere was a crimp fitting that needed a special indenting tool ( Breigel ) and is still around, under the RACO Brand. IIRC
the fitting was a one shot deal so the whole thing had to be cut off if you needed to make changes, and then the pipe was too short to reuse. but it was fast and made a very strong bonding connection...... FWIW the Sears Tower is supposedly full of these fittings some plumbers have offered me big $$$ for my Breigel crimpers.. someday I might sell them.. if I ever meet a plumber I don't want to kill :)there were also some really crappy expanding pieces of crappy #### that actually had a reduced throat which made pulling wire a real treat, since you skinned some of the wires as they entered the box.....these were inserted from inside the box and a set screw tightened,but they were banned from use because of that little wire stripping featurewhich brings us to the ubiquitous set screw fitting, .... cheap, unless they were Regal¯ ..... fast, die cast and somewhat dependable.
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Edited 3/12/2008 8:36 pm by maddog3
would you mind tearing open some more of your walls, like say the kitchen and a living room
The ripped out wall was the back of the kitchen from the living room. I should be in the attic soon, maybe I can get some pictures up there. All the conduit is run over the rafters in full view with a little push of the insulation.
I could tear out more, but I'll have to get permission from the DW first ;)
oooh...... the attic, .
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Please excuse my ignorance.
IIRC, emt is to be strapped no further apart than every 10'.
How close is it required to be strapped when entering a box?
For some reason, 18" sticks in my mind. Sorry, I don't have a current code book handy, since we have no building codes in the great city of Findlay!
I was wondering, since I see very few straps close to the boxes in your pictures.
Thanks, Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
36".
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Thanks!
I checked with my retired electrician friend who knows the code, and knows where to find it in the code book if he doesn't know it off the top of his head. He told me the same thing today, and showed it to me in "The Book".
Still, looking at those pictures, it appears that some of the conduit is not strapped according to code. By code, it can be up to 5 feet max. if there are no structural members to attach to any closer than that.
So, are the inspectors a little lax in their inspections? Or, since conduit could be considered overkill by many, the strapping is not as important?
I have installed hundreds of feet of conduit, and I would just like to know. I will still go by the book anyway.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Two reasons I can think of for the condition you speak of in my pix.
First, some of the newer work has never been inspected. It's either do it yourself work or a small basement remodel which doesn't require permits.
The other reason is that the house is 34 years old. The town I'm in has gone from around 15k people back then to around 150k now. Codes, rules and enforcement have changed drastically since then.
to add to what Joe said, there used to be two big shops in his area, so the inspectors had a tendency to inspect from the driveway because of many previous inspections..
same shop
same electricians
same quality of work all of which led to some shortcuts like the one you noticed from time to time if somebody was under the gun to finish a job.... back then we were expected to run at least 500' a day, today I think it's more like 700' that's about 100' / hour.
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Thanks to both you and Joe for replying to my post.
That explains the pictures. I was hoping that that was not the current level of inspections, since the Chicago area is big on conduit.
700 feet a day? I couldn't run that much nm in a day, unless I didn't care what it looked like.
It's nice to be a one man show, and that people appreciate the quality and will pay for it. But then, I am sure I don't charge for labor what you can get in Chicago.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
it takes a few people to help get to that amount of pipe,
one fella would drill studs,
one mounts boxes,
and the third hand just pipes it all together. and that is in tract homescustom homes are a different animal since there is usually more money... (time) in those.
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My electrician friend said that one time he and another electrician installed 800 - 900 feet of pipe in one day. They were on a lift about 35' high in a factory. But, he said it was all straight run. And, I think he said they were installing multiple runs.
Still, I would like to see some more pictures in the new homes being built.
We await them patiently.
Thanks, Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
I will have mine back today,
but I was not able to speak to the apprentice co-ordinator until Thursday, he is looking around and asking his instructors if their classes have anything recent.that may take a week or two.
If i lived closer I would be happy to just find a house and get them myself,.
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lets see how this goes here are some shots of a few the many things I have to finish around here. sorry, I don't have any whole house pictures it's been many years since I actually roughed a whole house, I'm gettin too old :( I just happen to have these walls open still and I realize after looking at them that they really don't represent " how to " run conduit
but maybe you will get the general idea until I wrangle some from the apprentice office.
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GUNNER !!!.
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hope those give you some ideas.
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Sweet! Nice work there. Got any pictures of it in like a long wall running horizontal? That's what I can't get my head around.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
Thank You
I'm sorry I didn't have more to show you, but running it horizontally is really no big deal. Just get it through the first two studs and then pry it into the third and maybe the fourth by then the pipe is mostly straight or it has a slight wow to it, so just ram it through the rest of the wall and you can get the full 10' in the wall doing it like thisthe real trick is drilling the first few studs without getting too close to the edge, but giving you a slight entry angle to get the pipe started....not too hard to figure out.
3/4 pipe can be a little more troublesome, and if it gets really tough, just use more couplings until you get the hang of it.
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Thanks. I try to use 3/4 for everything. I can see where 1/2 would be better in these kinds of deal. I'm going to wire my next house and I'm gonna do it all in conduit. (I say that now anyway) I think it woud be better.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
if you don't build your ouse between now and the Peachfest, I can have a class on pipe bending for all y'all.
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I can bend pretty good. Don't fall for the live demo at the fest scam. It's a way for everyone to drink beer and heckle you.
Is pipe a common term for conduit there?
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
It is here.
Where?
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I've entered my location!Anyways, if you want to be that technical, it's all 'tubing'. 'Pipe' is anything that's threaded. No threads, no 'pipe'. Or so I've been told.
It's always good for a laugh.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I just assumed you didn't run to much of the stuff, my apologies but I can ignore drunks when I'm trying to explain something.... :) yeah we just say pipe. Everything is pipe of one form or another around here, it just depends where you working when someone says " you're running pipe today ".
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I've never ran it in residential. It probably sounds stupid from your view point where it is common. It's just something that is never considered here.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
according to this thread, running conduit sounds stupid.
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Yeah, I've never even seen it walk.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
eh, that took a minute.... ! Tom slaps himself in the head DOH !.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess. I wonder if the anti conduit people are Licensed electricians? I've kind of skimmed over the arguments in this thread as arguing electric code and theory is just stupid to me. It is, what it is ,and it's never gonna change.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
personally , I have only run rope twice and hated every minute of it.
we should just play to our strengths BTW only a few towns in Indiana require a license, I am not licensed nor is anyone between here and Iowa
as Illinois does NOT either, but there might be a few burgs along the way with a local requirementand personally I don't care what a individuals affiliation is, as long as they can do their job and leave mine alone.
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Here everyone has to be licensed. It's nuts. Technicaly even if your just upgrading a device. Say taking out a single pole light switch and installing a dimmer switch.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I misspoke, in the big city there is something they call a "supervising electrician" and you have to test to get the title and number but that fella is the ONLY one who can pull a permit from the building dept. you don't have to work for the shop, they just need to have a SE on the payroll... in one form or another, so some folks "lease" their # to one or more shops, or so I have heard...:).
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That would be a sweet gig. Here your supposed to have a Master electrician on the job itself.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I think in Michigan, everyone has to carry a license on the jobsite.but nukes are exempt.
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You would think on Nukes they would have to have two licenses. LOL I'm not sure how the breakdown is here. You have to have a Master on the job to supervise. They do have regular electrician licenses but I'm not sre of the ratio of electricians to masters. I don't work on jobs big enough to worry about it. Mine will cover me and anyone under me without a license as ling as I'm on site.
You are supposed to pull a permit and get an inspection even if you are adding a circuit. It's pretty crazy. Of course nobody does it. I've only had problems once in Paducah the inspector just happend to be driving by and saw us working on an island ATM. We were changing the circuit from 60 amp 220. To a 30 amp 110, and a 20 amp circuit for a canopy another contractor was putting in. Didn't have to pull the meter or anything but stiill had to get the permit and inspection. Paducah is a harcore town though.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
BTW I like the license thing here. (Partly because I happen to have the golden card) But mainly because they have something to hold over the head of crappy electricians. You are more accountable if they can take it away.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I agree, the license thing has been kicked around here a few times ,
don't know why it never happens..maybe everyone is afraid the Unions will get big again.
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Edited 3/16/2008 11:05 pm by maddog3
I think they thought that here too. I don't know if it's helped or not.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
One thing that is has helped though is guys like me can get into the union as Journeymen just by having a masters license. I don't know how common it is but it does happen.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
that's good to have available, if you ever get tired of your present job and like to travel around the USis your license reciprocal with other States ?.
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I think the hall here is empty now. Meaning everyone is working. My license is recipricol in Ohio and Virginia. That's the last time I checked. There might be more now. No I don't like traveling like that for work.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
wonder what the total amount of wasted labor is for putting conduit in single family homes over the last 50 or whatever years has been. Sounds like some strange European thing from the dark ages, sounds like the people who fought to keep cast iron pipe and not go to plastic
I talked to my electrician (we're in Idaho) about it today he thought it had more to due with fire code, His feeling is a lot of code is based on and originated from preventing fire and if any town would be cautious about fire, it would be Chicago that would not want a repeat.
So that is why he thought conduit.Wallyo
there are some folks who would argue that safety is not a waste of time !.
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But like everything it can be overdone.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
yeah, kinda like my place....:).
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I hear ya. it's not that I ever had a burning desire to see Ohio either, :) but work is picking up between here and Chicago again, so I can stay closer to home and hopefully finish up and get out by next Fall.
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Very cool. I've got several more falls before I can finish up. LOL
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
oh well, the clock on the wall says it's time to go to work..gotta finish cleaning the electrostatic precipitator at the big ol carbon spewing powerhouse
by the Lake.
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I got home from ork about an hour ago. Nasty day out there.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
you had a long day, crummy weather all over the placezero vis fog and rain for the second half of mine.
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One thing that is has helped though is guys like me can get into the union as Journeymen just by having a masters license. I don't know how common it is but it does happen.
I think the second stipulation for that to happen is a genetic link to someone in Local 369. I don't know about other locals in the state, but in our area 369 rules.
I am in 2100 (utility) and when we wanted to cross over durring one of the down sizing periods, they said " sure, you can put your name on the book."
A couple of guys signed up as willing to be travelers. Never got a call. One of them even went to the hall every morning for two months. A BA finally told him to wise up and stop wasting his time, he wasn't high enough up the food chain in 2100 to even get a smell in 369.
Kind blows the whole "brotherhood" bs out of the water, doesn't it?
Now Dave, you know us Inside "A" guys are the top of the food chain... :).
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Yea, I envy you guys out there in the mud, blood, and beer. While I'm stuck in this one cozy old building, cherry picking my jobs, making the same money :(
I'm sorry Dave, I wasn't intending to pizz you off, I don't have a clue what you folks have to put up with or if your Steward is a good one
plus, Ed Hill can suck my ...k
because it's all about per capita any more so if you don't like it too badand your BA was an jerk for acting that way........ 369 has too many classifications for their own good...
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That was just tongue in cheek.
I got the world by the azz as far as employment. Mostly good people and conditions to work in, with the exceptions on the normal sprinkling of DA's around to keep it interesting.
I work with a lot of guys out of 369. They are good guys all in all. It is the leadership that is a little wacky, but I would guess that is true anywhere.
alrighty then... :).
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Hey, I stand corrected on a couple things. I asked my old man about PVC vs. EMT, and he said:- You absolutely can use the EMT as a safety ground, here, and
- He likes working with it a lot better, especially with a hydraulic bender.I never had the opportunity to help him install any EMT, although a lot of it is in the house as rods for clothes hangers, and that kind of thing. ;-)
Edited 3/23/2008 2:07 pm ET by Biff_Loman
All right then, tell your dad you're off the hook.
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Oh yeah the brotherhood.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I don't know the whole story. But my dad was in the union. He might have been a founder and/or an officer.But my mother made the comment once that he was real upset with what they become. But I really don't know what that was about.But that was in the late 30's or early 40's..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
odd there has nver been a requirement to lable romex, like by circuit number or in some manner
I'm not sure that numbering wire is a requirement. It is done with conduite pulls because there can be multiple circuites in one conduite. It is a whole lot easier to read wire numbers than ring out each wire. It is also the best way for an electrician to follow a set of prints on a large commercial or industrial job.
As maddogs attachment shows, there can be some complex romex work, but simply writing on the cable sheating works very well. I think CAP even recommends it in one of his articles for FHB.
Now, labeling breakers in a panel box is required. Making sense out of those descriptions sometime requires ability to transcend reality and communicate with the dead <G>
since Chicago has 17,355 members and the surrounding locals probably add another 7000
and control a large portion of the work,
it is a considerable number of people to just give a license to the other guys would have had to take a test to prove their background or, in another scenario, provide an extensive resume' and therein is the opposition to licensing.
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That is how I got my permit. Lend would be a better word in my instance. Friend of a friend so they say. But that was just for the move of the service.
Forgot in my last post. Most people get excited about having a demo then could care less when it actually comes time to watch it. If it goes on more then fifteen minutes most people get up and start walking around.
Then reason I asked about the pipe thing is it's never called that here. I get on new guys when they say it. "You sh1t in a pipe, you run wire in conduit." That's my saying anyway. LOL
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I have to say I never thought of it that way.. :).
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Been there done that, Actually it is the only way I know. I actually like it. I rehabbed a house in the city and it was all hard pipe, you know the black kind. Real easy to take out the old cloth covered stuff and replace with new, also really easy to add on to with the new stuff. Well except for that buried box I found and had to clip my fish and abandoned until I opened up a wall to find the box some a hole buried in the floor. I have corrected that problem.
Anyway, going to a house in the country and the maze of romex makes my head spin, I can't figure out where it all goes as there is no highway, just a maze of wires overhead in the basement.
I learned my electrical from a union guy, taught me some cool tricks like using a vacuum to pull a fish wire. I am going to take some of this to an area where it is not required where I think I may need some new circuits someday. I am also going to run a couple empty for future use.
Seriously, romex seems more confusing to me then pipe and whips. It is all so well thought out from the start.
I'm not going to rehash the romex vs. conduit argument, especially because I'm not an electrician.I will say that there are good romex installations and there are bad ones. A good one often has the look of a "map" like you mention. All wires neatly grouped and organized. Others just try to go as the crow flies. I don't know if it makes a big difference but the customers seem to appreciate a clean installation much more.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
when both are done well it's a thing of beauty.....both places we have had here were the same rural electric I especially liked the cable to the lamp socket without a box, just nail it too the ceiling and you're done anybody can do it and usually did
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and looks real cool too
That's the best part.
Do you ever notch the face of the studs or only drill the center?
Edited 3/10/2008 10:54 am ET by JAlden
notching is not allowed, it is run pretty much like NM we just dont use those little nail plates
pipe has the same problems as NM in the same places there are some instances like an outlet under a bay window where it gets tricky and kitchens can be a challenge, but if a mistake is made in the circuiting we just pull another wire since everything is tied together.
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"How the heck do you get a ten foot stick into a drilled stud wall?"I understand that there are 3 different ways tht they do it. 1) They get the plumbers in with a sawzall and just cut notches for it in all of the studs (Union rules, only the plumbers can use sawzalls).2) They have a big cannon like device. Get on an outside corner and fire the conduit through the sheathing and through the studs. Unfornately the device still needs some improvement. The last time that they used it they overshot a little. In went out the oposite wall in to the GC's brand new truck.3) They drill the holes in all the studs. Then get the carpenters to string the stud on the pipe and then build the walls. Just like stringing beads.Actually I suspect that most of the pipe is up and down the walls and that turns are down in the basement or ceiling.You asked about how they override the NEC.The NEC is NOTHING but the title of a book. It has absolutely no authority. The "local" governement has to adopt a sepecific code and any modifications that they want. And until they adopt new amendments or a new code the current one rules. While Chicago might have there own code book, some of the subburbs in the Chicago area use the NEC, but have amendments that prohibit NM.One city that I looked up IIRC it was in Indiana) was still the 1993 NEC with amendments that said something like "and section #### (NM) is deleted".I know that some area the building codes have enough modifications that instead of addopting a code and list the modifications they license the national codes and the rewrite the sections that they want and publish it as a state building code.BTW, here is the electrical code for Evenston, IL."4-7-1: ADOPTION:(A)Pursuant to the authority granted by 65 Illinois Compiled Statutes 5/1-2-4, and pursuant to its home rule powers, the city of Evanston hereby adopts by reference, as criteria for the issuance of construction, reconstruction, alteration, or installation permits, the provisions of the 2005 national electrical code.(B)Any reference in said 2005 national electrical code as to "administrative authority" or "building official" or "code official" shall mean the assistant director of community development, building division, of the city of Evanston or his or her designee. (Ord. 26-0-05) ""4-7-3: AMENDMENTS:(A) The following amendments to the 2005 national electrical code adopted hereby are made:Article 210-52 (E) Outdoor Outlets: Add the following:For each dwelling unit of a multi-family dwelling where the dwelling is provided with a balcony, porch, deck or similar area, that area shall be served with at least one GFCI protected receptacle outlet not more than forty-eight inches (48") above the grade or decking.Article 230 Services: Add the following:The maximum number of branch circuits allowed for a 100-amp, 120/240 volt, single phase service is twenty-four (24). The maximum number of branch circuits allowed for a 200-amp, 120/240 volt, single phase service is forty (40).Article 230 Services: Add the following:No additional fuse or breaker boxes shall be installed without the prior written approval of the building official.Article 250-91(a) Grounding Electrode Conductor: Delete and substitute therefor:(a) Grounding Electrode Conductor: Copper wire shall be used for all ground conductors and water meter jumpers.Article 334 Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable: Types NM, NMC, and NMS: Delete.Article 338 Service Entrance Cable: Types SE and USE: Delete.Article 362 Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing: Types ENT: Delete.Article 422.25 Unit Switch(es) As Disconnecting Means: Delete and substitute therefor:Unit Switch(es) As Disconnecting Means:(A) Unit switches which are a part of an appliance shall not be considered as taking the place of the disconnecting means required by part D (Control And Protection Of Appliances) of this article, unless there are other means for disconnection as follows:(1) Multi-Family Dwellings: In multi-family (more than two) dwellings, the disconnecting means shall be within the apartment, or on the same floor as the apartment in which the appliance is installed, and may control lamps and other appliances.(2) Two-Family Dwellings: In two-family dwellings, the disconnecting means may be outside the dwelling unit in which the appliance is installed. This unit permits an individual switch for the dwelling unit.(3) In Single-Family Dwellings: In single-family dwellings, the service disconnecting means shall not be used.(4) Other Occupancies: In other occupancies, the branch-circuit switch or circuit breaker, where readily accessible to the user of the appliance, may be used for this purpose. ".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill. I could have answered my own question if I wouldn't have been so lazy. That's pretty common.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
2) They have a big cannon like device. Get on an outside corner and fire the conduit through the sheathing and through the studs. Unfornately the device still needs some improvement. The last time that they used it they overshot a little. In went out the oposite wall in to the GC's brand new truck.I have a funny story similar to this but I gotta head out. I"ll catch you this afternoon.
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You guys don't know what installation fun you're missing with EMT.
Of course, you should only cut center holes in studs for horizontal runs and use perfect offset bends to meet the boxes. (I just opened up a wall in my house and found a nice hack job on studs and joists for both EMT and HVAC.)
Generally it's best to try and run up or down to connect a box in a single stud bay to avoid the "threading" necessary with long horizontal runs. Of course, many guys just cut a 10' conduit section in half and use a junction to make installation easier, but this can make cable pulling/pushing harder if junctions aren't tight.
FYI, in Chicago hospitals and medical facilities, ALL data cables that may ever carry patient data need to be in conduit or closed cable trays. This can add serious dollars to computer networking projects but does have the benefit of preventing some yahoo from accidentally cutting the data cord on your heart monitor in the ICU. I once had a city inspector insist even the data cables in a hospital accounting department had to be in EMT or trays!
EMT does provide EMF shielding and so is a nice choice when parallel runs of both power and data have to be installed.
Although I don't completely understand shielding, it seems to me one other advantage of EMT is that it might cut down on electrical interference from the high voltage lines to things like cable TV and TelComm wiring. Is that the case, and if so, how much does it help?
The coax cable is sheilded. And modern telecom/data cables use twisted pair that is "self canceling".In residential wiring there is no advantage to any additional shielding.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The susceptability of higher data rate transmissions to interference is well documented.
Common unshielded twisted pair cables (UTP) are "self-canceling" only from the standpoint of the EMI they generate themselves, not from that of potential neighboring high voltage current cables or other sources of interference. They accept the external interference, it's the transmission electronics that actually reject a signal based on the difference in polarity between the wires in the pair. Try running a UTP network near an AM radio station transmitter or even some high voltage transmission lines and you'll see what I mean. As the S/N ratio drops, there goes your effective data rate.
With more and more people expecting high-speed internet connections to be continued throughout their residential networks on existing UTP cabling, interference is a growing problem. (though still no comparison to the interference problems wireless networks face) With computers passing files, people didn't notice any retransmissions. With audio and video streams, any introduced transmission delays are very noticeable.
While I agree that 95% of people will face no serious issues with UTP, making a blanket statement that no benefits can be derived in residential wiring from additional shielding is incorrect.
Quite apart from interference issues, I recommend people run their data cabling in EMT so that they have a means to easily replace the cabling in the future should their needs change. (if they can afford it, they should just run dark fiber today)
No, the twisted pair will cancel external noise.It is only noise is so large that the noise plus signals exceed the CMR (common mode rejection) range of the receivers.More often the problem is in other areas.Had dampening control system on a newspaper plant. Each tower had a local controller and there was a master controller. Now this was all slow speed data. But used a singled, unshield TWP cable. that dazy chained from unit to unit.The system worked fine untill the presses started running. The installed claimed interfernece and had the electricans run new grounds and installed ground rods.Still had the problem.Put a scope on the data lines and as soon as the presses started up they went crazy. Started opening up boxes and isolating the cable segments.Found one that there was a couple of strands of wire that did not make it into the connector and when the pressure where running the wires viberated and was shorting out against the case.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"the twisted pair will cancel external noise."
Sorry Bill, but twisted pair cabling just doesn't "cancel" external noise. No metal cable is completely immune from external EMI, that's just physics 101. Some cable types are better than others, but EMI is a reality in all metal cabling.
Consider ALIEN (no, not little green men) crosstalk and PSANEXT as great examples of how UTP itself does not cancel all external noise. And that's EMI coming from other UTP! This is why the newer (CAT6 and up) high speed TP cabling standards frequently use PIMF (pairs in metal foil) beyond adding twists to increase noise immunity.
"It is only noise is so large that the noise plus signals exceed the CMR (common mode rejection) range of the receivers."
So if noise can reach the receiver, that means it got into the cable from somewhere. Why didn't the UTP cancel it all out as you state it should? Because this is impossible. That's why there's a DSP chip at the end, and why S/N ratios are important.
Probably the biggest issue for non-EE's to understand when installing UTP is that sharp bends in the cable disrupting the regularity and proximity of the twists are very bad. This creates little loop antennas which are very good receivers of external interference. Installing UTP in conduits all but guarantees the cable is safe from sharp bends or installation damage and provides some small amount of EMI rejection as well assuming it's grounded properly. That's why this topic is still somewhat relevant in a conduit vs romex thread. :-)
As I said originally, 95% of people will never bump into interference issues in their homes using UTP, but that doesn't mean they can't exist.
>> "It is only noise is so large that the noise plus signals exceed the CMR (common mode rejection) range of the receivers."> So if noise can reach the receiver, that means it got into the cable from somewhere. Why didn't the UTP cancel it all out as you state it should? Because this is impossible. That's why there's a DSP chip at the end, and why S/N ratios are important.Bill was correct, within a couple of orders of magnitude at least. Twisted pair cancels out about 99% of the noise. Of course, as you state, no twisted pair scenario is perfect, and certainly using conduit adds another roughly one order of magnitude noise protection (though best if the conduit is only grounded on one end).From my TV days I know that it's far more important to have a balanced line with differential inputs than to have a shielded line. I've seen the difference in both audio and video.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"Probably the biggest issue for non-EE's to understand when installing UTP is that sharp bends in the cable disrupting the regularity and proximity of the twists are very bad. This creates little loop antennas which are very good receivers of external interference."EXACTLY!
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Presuming the conduit is grounded, it will make a very significant difference is the amount of radiated energy. Just like the shield on a co-ax cable.
But if the conduit is carrying any current that will get induced into the cables inside. This is why, in sensitive electronics, cable shields are only grounded at one end.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
There might be some truth to that. A few years ago a family of squirrels moved into the attic of a house in town. They munched through some wiring in the attic and started a fire (pity the critters). The house burnt to the ground. Luckily no one was injured because the fire was in the morning hours at dawn. Someone was up and walking around and noticed smoke billowing from the attic vents and alerted the occupants.
A year or so ago The IBEW Journal said that the locals in Chigago are the conduit champs of the country.
Want to learn how to run any type of conduit?
Go to Chigago and get in the IBEW appernticeship program.
locals in Chigago are the conduit champs
Yup, they are. And I would bet they could compete with the guys running romex as far as speed goes.
That said, I'll fire a shot. There are definately advantages to conduit jobs.
No ground wire, less fill in boxes. No nail plates, staples. Color codes for switch legs are maintained, three way as well. Multiple circuits in one pipe. Ability to pull more (sometimes).
And the biggie for Breaktime, No reason for buried junction boxes.
J- Living in Cook County
Edited 3/6/2008 12:58 pm ET by JAlden
I must be part of the brainwashed masses in the Chicago burbs. I would never run romex anywhere, can't stand it. It scares the he!! out of me to have, IMO, bare wires in the walls. I hang too many pictures and make too many remodeling changes to my house that somewhere along the way, I would have hit a wire.
I do custom woodwork and the thought of hitting a wire in a customer's house would be enough to make me close up shop or triple my insurance.
No thanks, keep it in a pipe please.
You ever worked with romex? It's a heck of a lot tougher than what you imply. It's used safely all over the country.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
The logical side of my head says that it must be safe, because, as you say, it's used all over the country.
But the apprehensive side of my head won't let me use it.
Again, I'm probably brainwashed, but I can think of worse things to be brainwashed about.
When romex is properly installed, and inspected, its pretty darn safe, so unless you are using 3" nails to nail in trim, or using a recip saw with foot long blade to make cuts through drywall, its safe in my opinion.
Any romex within 1 1/4" of the face of a farming member (running through a hole) maust be protected by a nailing plate.
The best practice for runing nm cable is to center all holes in the framing.
Can you still get a nail into the romex ? You bet, you can, but it takes some dumb planning by the electrician and any of the trades that follow them.
Course all bets are off if it is a DIY project by someone that just doesn't have a clue.
Course all bets are off if it is a DIY project by someone that just doesn't have a clue.
This might be part of my apprehension to using romex. The only time I see it in my area is when a homeowner does it. I had some in my garage and it didn't look good -surface mounted and out in the open. I replaced it with conduit before I closed up the walls.
not exactly home wiring, and it's actually one of the few pictures with me in it... :) it's up by Fermi, @ Eola and Butterfield.
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OK, which one of the guys with thier butts up are you, or are you just leaning on your knee shooten the breeze ? (g)
Nice work, BTW
I 'm wearing the blue T on the left. the guy in the foreground is my buddy Scott... he was foreman......and the other two guys standing up were apprentices humping pipe into the ditch and helping that guy working in the background glue up all the PVC. The first two tiers were steel for I&C and we were just tying the chairs down before they started extending the plastic
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Right there with you... Chicagoland boy as well. While I am no electrician, I can bend and install conduit pretty fast.
Every time I watch Romex being run willy nilly into plastic boxes on the TV shows I cringe. Nothing wrong with it I am sure, just old habits...
Then you'll luuuuv watching PEX being installed.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Very funny...
I never count on the pipe for ground, too many ways for things to get loose.
Never seen a ground wire in anything I've opened up - but I guess this is a Chicago thing.
not if you do it right. Coming from this to Romex is interesting. I like the pipe Where I am rehabing a house I can now use romex and there are pluses to running conduit. Well at least if that is the only way you know how to do it. This third wire thing is a PITA and it also makes people lazy in the way they run wires. There is so much #### all over the ceiling that I don't know what to do. If you have to plan it all out it is more efficient.
not if you do it right
It might be done correctly to start with, but even in commercial work we have found that it is better to just pull a green wire in with the other pulls. Depending on the conduit to provide a continiouse ground through out the life of a system is just wishfull thinking IMO. I have seen way to many additions, subtractions, and modifications over the years to say that if a system is in conduit it is properly grounded.
My point exactly. It just gives a place (actually many) for a failure to occur. My last commercial job was converting a florist and antique shop to a credit union.
It was right next to a railroad track. The emt had several loose connectors and about half of the lay-in troffers used non-metalic flex with no ground wire. I sold the cu point of contact that we should have the electrician go through every wire and box and ensure proper ground.
I have seen soot trails where the conduit was loose and sparking had occured.
I've never heard of a ground coming loose in conduit. Not that I'm some experienced electricion by any means. But I would think that would come up in the 15-20 old homes I've had something to do with.
That is what caused the MGM Grand fire in Las Vegas, in 1980. 85 dead, close to 700 hundred injured.
The fire was caused by an electrical ground fault inside a wall soffit. The wiring inside the wall was used to power a refrigeration unit for a food display cabinet in the deli. The vibration of the machine caused the conduit to loosen, loosing the ground, and the wires to rub against each other. The friction damaged wires arced and developed into a fire, which was detected hours later by a hotel employee. The fire also spread to the lobby, fed by wallpaper, PVC piping, glue, and plastic mirrors. The burning material created toxic fumes and smoke, which caused the majority of the deaths.
"I have seen soot trails where the conduit was loose and sparking had occured. "
Current flowing through your grounds is a much bigger problem than loose EMT connections. Bad grounding connections can occur regardless of the cabling/conduit choice. I hardly think EMT has fallen out of favor due to safety concerns.
Call me old fashioned, but I sleep well with all the conduit in my house and the knowledge that one little picture hanging nail won't ruin my day.
I would agree that current flowing through ground ckt is worse but even worse is current not making it through because someone did not properly tighten a setscrew. I am happy you sleep well but I would sleep better if there was a dedicated ground wire in my conduit if I had it.
But hey, the older half of my house has old romex with no ground.
I may be totally off base with this comment. But, I thought that there was NOT supposed to be any current flowing throught the grounding conductor.
My understanding is that it is ONLY for safety purposes.
If there is current flowing through the ground wire or conduit, isn't there a problem that should be addressed and corrected?
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
I was not indicating that it normally should, just when it should be clearing a fault or discharging from a surge suppressor. If you were expecting it to do it's job and there was a loose connection it might fail to do that.
As the person I was replying to said, grounds can be screwed up many ways, not just conduit. I think a properly done wire nut will have less likelihood of getting loose vs a conduit clamp or lock nut. Just my opinion and I am not an electrician.
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAHAHyou're too damn funny.
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The electrician's unions in and around Chicago are very influential with the building departments.
Conduit = More Labor = More Work / Pay for union electricians. When you consider that well over half of all work in the Chicago area is done by union labor it all makes sense.
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAHAH
you're too damn funny
do you disagree with what he is saying ?
while i see the value (to some extent) of conduit in a residence, i am sure that the average homeowner in Chicago couldn't give a #### whether they have conduit or romex. particularly when it would mean more money in their pocket to buy a bigger screen tv. i'm sure you guys are quick with your pipe, but it's still a much much more expensive job than romex and the whole thing is driven by the unions.
and i'm a union guy. we still joke with the old timers about when circular saws were illegal in unions because they saved too much time and took away work from the men. or the bricklayers unions that outlawed speed corners.
i'm sure the same people that came up with those rules would argue that competition is unhealthy in the construction business environment.
wishing i could afford emt in my own home............
carpenter in transition
it was a blanket statement, that I happen to resent... partly because it's the same broken record I have heard for years, but when you protect your business and clients from hacks and jack-legs and quick buck artists...... that's OKI try to protect mine and I'm the A-hole, and honestly I don't really care if the HO gets to buy a TV or truck or whatever, because I can't believe that ONLY the electrical pushes the price up, and FWIW Dupage County, one of those five collar counties, and is about as Republican as you can get, adopted the Chicago Code(s) for it's own with no arm twisting head smashing goon squad union tactics..... ironic ain't it ?.
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"because I can't believe that ONLY the electrical pushes the price up"You are right.A couple of years ago I looked up the code for one of the subburbs. They did not allow any building techniques invented after the 19th centery.No SIPS's, no IFC, no ABS/PVC drains, no PEX..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
.." They did not allow any building techniques invented after the 19th centery." now THAT'S funny.
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I'm a union member also. IBEW to be exact.
We have been pushing for stricter licencing laws in KY for many years, with little success. Finally in 2001 with a state wide adoption of the UBC and IRC we were able to make some progress, but it wasn't untll 2004 that the state legislators got a wake up call, that they started to look at the whole electrical maintenace/construction inspection process. We were not a big factor in waking them up.
A child was electrocuted by touching a steel overhead door. The door operator and the whole garage had been wire by an unlicensed hack hired by the previouse HO. No permits and no inspection, and no license for the guy that did the work.
It took the childs family two more years to get legislation pushed through to correct the laws pertaining to permits, license reguirements to pull a permit, and fines for illegal work, and a code of ethics for electrical contractors.
Both IBEW and non union electrical contractors supported the legislation. It was close to what we had been pushing for for years,but could not get passed. It took a childs death, some high powered attorney's and a lot of letters and petitions by people that supported the family's position to get the new law passed.
Guess who got accussed of pushing the legislation through? The unions of course.
We will take the bad mouthing for it. We don't care. We got what we were hoping for,... tougher laws tha will maybe make people safer.
Did we get more work because of the law? I don't think so.
Sometimes the forces behind codes aren't what they seem to be.
"A child was electrocuted by touching a steel overhead door. The door operator and the whole garage had been wire by an unlicensed hack hired by the previouse HO. No permits and no inspection, and no license for the guy that did the work."Actually the HO had a garage built. And the garage builder hired a LICENSED ELECTRICAN AND CONTRACTOR.The electrican had an unlicensed employee doing the wiring, suppositly supervising him.What surprised me was that there was no apparent action against the electricans or contractors license..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
after re-reading your post I have to add that I doubt hardly anyone would see the savings of one material over the other unless they were acting as the GC on their own home .I think a GC would pocket the difference and sell the house for whatever the market will fetch himbut your saw story reminded me of my early days when we had hardly any power tools either I used a hacksaw to cut the service feeders, a bit and brace to drill studs, and
the job steward told me on my first day to get rid of my Craftsman tools since they were not union made !!! and the newfangled GFI breakers were so expensive, the foreman was the only one who could install them and he kept them locked up.
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Unions in Chicago are often quite different from unions elsewhere. They do have a great deal of political pull (ask Walmart) and they do influence the building codes to their advatage. Low voltage wire not in conduit didn't become legal until the late '70s.
And then there are the union affiliations with the 'boys'. Which is why WGN TV (just one example) demanded a separate local be created to serve that one client exclusively.
Chicago is known as 'the city that works' because we can fix anything.
The Chicago building code specifies conduit for AC. Heck, it used to specify the same for low voltage door bells!
When you have the world's toughest (aka impossible) building codes, it offers greater opportunities for 'negotiation' with the inspectors, who tend to dress very nicely.
Conduit is pipe, I think your thinking of BX, it is a flexible metal shield covering the wires.
Conduit is pipe, I think your thinking of BX, it is a flexible metal shield covering the wires.
Some electricians call ridgid "pipe", and make a distiction from EMT, or IMC
You say just outside of Chicago. Are you sure your local jurasdiction will allow romex?
You also have asked twice for a pricing difference. Unless you find a guy or company that works outside of the area, you may keep getting quotes that are identical to conduit. Everyone around here runs pipe and may not be familiar with romex, hence the similar pricing.
But if you went somewhere else in the country, there would probably be a big price difference. Just a theory.
Yea I was pretty shocked myself but the are allowing ot however they are not forthcoming with the information I kind of backed into it because I was looking for a varience so I could use SIPS panels for my exterior walls. Turns out I dont need a varience and Romex is now legal. I was kind of hoping someone out there had done both and give me rough idea as to the savings labor and material one might expect ie..5-25% just trying to temper my expectations.
I'm with the other guys that are okay with Romex.
I grew up in Chicagoland and thought that EMT was all there was. You look in someone's basement or garage and you will see conduit everywhere.
When I moved out of the area, I saw Romex and thought it was awfully cheap. "What happens when you hit a wire with a trim nail?" But you know what, that rarely happens. If nail plates are used properly and the wires placed in the right place, you are very unlikely to hit a wire.
Chicago is different. I remember working on a house built in the 1960's with 3" cu DWV piping. I hate to think how much that would cost to do now.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Wow. In Ontario, it's nothing but Romex for residential installations. There's something incredibly anal - no, make that maniacal - about piping an entire house.
Relying on the conduit to provide a continuous safety ground is hardcore stupid though. You can't do that, here.
Edited 3/9/2008 1:04 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Finished wiring my workshop/barn with emt about a month ago. Bought my supplies at a combination of big box and the local electric supply house. Cost just around $2500. That included nearly 3000 feet of 10 and 12 ga THHN (rather surprised at how much wire it took), about 300 feet of 3/4" and and 100 feet of 1/2" emt, 30 or so boxes, couple of boxes of end fittings, support brackets, 40-120v 20 amp duplex recepticles, 4 240v 20 amp recepticles, and 2-240v 30amp recepticles, plus coverplates for all and 1/2 a dozen light switches.
Hope this helps