Our installer obviously thought bamboo is easy to install, but obviously never actually installed it. He had trouble with the psi, the nail guns and– flatness of the subfloor. The installer is the GC who did our entire kitchen remodel.
The floor is fully installed. And we are the big losers. He shimmed the floor w/ asphalt shingles? but it just created hollow voids and dips everywhere. Level, but not nearly flat. It feels like a cheap floating floor. This is the 1/2″ Teragren Synergy. It seems like a great product, and gorgeous. But obviously the installer treated it like 3/4 hardwood. His comment was that this is acceptable for an older house.
I have full access to the subfloor from the basement. Do you think I could drill 3/8″ holes up through the subfloor, try to jack it from below and inject PL Premium etc? Do you think this would fill the voids?? What could go wrong?
The other option is to confront the GC. Again. I have had 2 architects 3 handymen and another builder all say this is not acceptable / they would not walk away from this in good conscience.
The GC walked off the job and has not returned my calls in almost 8 months now.
Any thoughts?
Replies
your GC is an idiot. But if he hasn't talked to you in 8 months I think your SOL. I would try to take up the floor and start from square one. Sorry.
Sounds like he made an honest effort to make the best of an un-level subfloor.
I don't know why tradesmen will sometimes disparage the work of another. There are other ways to approach it. Seems very unprofessional to me. Not that this is specific to the building trades.... Kinda like lawyers: you: " what do you think of this document?" Lawyer: I wouldn't have written that way. If I did it it would be better". :-)
Personally I think what you have is a product of the subfloor and the product you choose.
BTW - shimming subfloors with shingles is not uncommon.
I don't understand this whole "omerta" thing. We are allowed to slag HD, architects, the Chinese - just about anyone but other builders.
If you go into an old house to lay flooring surely it is up to you to create a suitable substrate onto which the flooring can be laid? This guy didn't. Using shingles may be common but there are a variety of leveling compounds that do a better job so that you don't end up with a cheap feeling floor.
This is great insight.I just can't rip it up. It would mean a complete tear out of the kitchen. I am going to go forward with the goofy "jack up each floor and fill all from under technique." My kids will learn some new words on the day I do this!!I'll try chasing the GC. Why can't people just admit when they screw-up?
Umm , were you not aware that your floor was not flat before the flooring started going down ? I'm no builder but I certainly would have asked the installer how the uneven nature of the floor would be dealt with prior to letting him put the new floorboards down. Perhaps the guy installing it should have stopped and warned you of the perils of continuing with the current plan.. but if you were aware of the uneven floor and did not address it either, then I am not so sure that all of the blame lies with your GC/installer.
The problem is that the GC/installer should have known better because he is the GC/installer.
I agree that there is some responsibility by others but when it comes right down to it the GC/installer should know better.
How can you exspect the home owner to know? "There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
"I just can't rip it up. It would mean a complete tear out of the kitchen."That is definitely not true. Where do you get that silly idea from?If you want it to be right, you have to do it right from the start. That means starting over. Anything less is a waste of time.
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Me tinks' he is worried where the floor goes under the cabinets.
Doesn't know our tricks!>G<
Toe kick saw.
We have a winner!>G<
*DING!*The subject of this thread is giving me deja' vu......Although I have feeling it won't go on and on like Wanda's. :o)
Edited 9/11/2009 9:49 pm by kenhill3
ord I hope not.
There is one confusing mess there!!!
"If you go into an old house to lay flooring surely it is up to you to create a suitable substrate onto which the flooring can be laid?"Thank you. Good post.
Yes, it is not hard with ANY flooring to read the instructions.
Anyone can find them in pdf form online given the name and model of product line.and those will detail the minimum acceptable substrate or underlayment to have in place, what kind of leveling material to use, and what degree of flat plane is necessary TO START installing the flooring.My own suspicions go this way -
The contractor chose to skip using an underlayment over old 1x10 boarding boards for some reason. Likely cost and/or in-experience.Cost could have been driven by a low bid situation. Low bidders always leave customers with this sort of dilemma
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shimming is common, but not with asphalt shingles, and it is obvious from the description that he did not do a good job of it, and did not use any floor leveling compound either
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When you do a floor that is all out of whack like described - would you "float out" to flat the whole subfloor? Or just in areas?
I generally add wood shims or cut to shim then overlay with 3/8" underlayment. Sometiomes better to add floor levelor to some spots then the underlayment. It all depends exactly what IS there to start and where I need to end up. For instance, my underlayment is going to be a lot flatter for these tiles than I would need it for 6x6 quarry tiles.So I look at the product I will install, then at what I havently have to work with, then build to what I need.
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The 2nd house i built the wife did not like the height of one of the cabinets that was an ideal height for the husband, who thought he would likely be the most prolific user.
Tore the whole thing out and rebuilt to the wife's specifications.
We've been married almost 40 years since then (and 5 before<G>).
Your floor had dips and voids before, they were not caused by the new flooring installation. The 1/2" bamboo feels like a cheap floating floor.
Forget the PL injection, rip it up and install 3/4" hardwood and be happy. Anything else is a waste of time and money.
If the job was unacceptable but you paid him anyway, you may be SOL.
If those other contractors and architects are willing to back up their statements under oath, you could take the GC to small claims court.
The difficulty would be determining the dollar value damages of serviceable-but-not-right versus a proper installation.
"The difficulty would be determining the dollar value damages"Nothing difficult at all - it is the cost of redoing it right. Whatever the new flooring guy charges.
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If the OP had not paid for the work, it would be easier to sell a judge on the floor being totally unacceptable. At this point I think the OP has to convince a judge (who probably knows little about craftsmanship) that a complete re-do is the correct remedy instead of a partial refund based on the value of a serviceable, but not up to top standards, job.BruceT
Edited 9/12/2009 12:43 am by brucet9
couple of ???
the gc/installer....why did he walk?
what, per s.f. did the installation cost? was it higher or lower than industry standards?
if you do anything to "correct" the work, his problem is over.
after he walked, was there unfinished work you or others completed?
was he owed a balance?
just ?? a judge might ask.
"if you do anything to "correct" the work, his problem is over."Normally true, but not necessarily so in this case, because he is not returning calls, but that letter notifying the guy of time to correct would certify the situation, and then the OP can proceed.
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that depends on the judge for sure.
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"The GC walked off the job and has not returned my calls in almost 8 months now. "
I think 'confronting' him will do little good.
What you can do is document what you have as problems with the opinions of the other builder and the architects, and have your lawyer write him a letter listing the concerns, with a notice that he must correct these within ( the amt of time required by your state or a reasonable period like 30 days if the state law does not so stipulate) or you will correct it yourself and hold him liable. This would mean notice of intent to go to court.
Then start talking to other flooring contractors for replacement. After the time period is up, get the chosen guy to work on making it right, and file against the first guy in court. Small claims court should be able to handle this.
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Listen to Piffin. Once again he hit the right points.
He's a Yankee from Western NY and knows all that CAN be known. I'm also a Yankee from WNY and I know the rest. (but don't tell him that).
What Piffin said. This isn't the first bamboo floor I've heard of with problems. Start over. You can always work up to cabinet bases.
Jeff
PL Premium will act properly as a glue but it is not intended to fill void. You'll be gluing the underside of your bamboo to a hole. I see PL Premium dripping back through the hole onto your face. Yes, I think the kids will learn something....a whole new vocabulary of profanity.
I just envisioned a screw lead auger point coming up from below..I wonder why?
First time I cut the tang off a jennings auger and used it in drill press was pretty exciting, maybe I can't shake the memory 35 yrs later?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I would caution against trying to correct the problem yourself, if you start futzing with it, you are now part of the problem. I agree that it ought to be torn up and done correctly, the lack of an underlayment sounds really bogus.
I also think it is time to talk to the lawyer, which sounds like your only hope of recovering the cost of making things right.
Good luck.
I may be wrong but legal action because it sounds like a cheap laminate floor may be difficult to proove in court.
Even cheap laminate floors (and I don't think this was cheap) will have instructions for sufloor prep prior to installation. They were obviously not followed. Shouldn't be all that hard to prove, but will likely be very hard to collect.Installer sounds like a hack, unfortunately.Here's the mfg subfloor requirements. I suppose it would depend on how the contract laid out who was responsible for proper subfloor prep, but if it wasn't to those specs, it shouldn't have been put down.Site PreparationA moisture-vapor retardant such as 6 mil polyethylene film must be placed in crawl spaces. Subflooring surfaces must be clean, dry, and if gluing the flooring directly to the subfloor, be free of contaminants that would interfere with an adhesive bond. Fix any squeaks or movement in the subfloor prior to flooring installation. The subfloor surface must be level and smooth prior to flooring installation. Subfloors should be checked for flatness prior to installation and any low spots or voids should be filled to a minimum of 3/16" within a 10' radius or 1/8" in a 6' radius, and high spots ground to surface. Teragren recommends using 3/4" CDX plywood as a nailing substrate or for a glue application, 5/8" CDX plywood for 12" on center and 16" on center floors, and 3/4" CDX plywood for 24" on center floors. A subfloor of 1-1/8" plywood over joists at 16"on center is recommended for an optimal installation. Edited 9/11/2009 6:56 pm ET by TomW
Edited 9/11/2009 6:57 pm ET by TomW
You might want to go back and read the original post.
The only problem I can find is...."It feels like a cheap floating floor"
Perhaps the courts in your area are more caring in the feelings department or might even rule in an existential sort of way..... around here thank God .... it's still evidence and proof that wins court cases.... and feeling cheap isn't going to carry much weight.
Bamboo floor is cheap and expecting it to feel otherwise is just.... well I have to be blunt here....
Stupid.
Here is another topic you may or may not want to tackle....
I bought a VW and when I drive it ... it's nothing like my Porsche. Aren't they the same company?
I read the first post, maybe you need a refeshed on it. >>>>>>He shimmed the floor w/ asphalt shingles? but it just created hollow voids and dips everywhere.<<<<<<<
The pretty much tells me the installer did not prep the subfloor per the mfg specs. Not real surprising that the floor isn't performng satisfactorily. I would venture to guess that not all bamboo flooring is cheap. I happen to have a VW and a Porsche in my garage right now. The VW drives at least as well as the Porsche. But that isn't really the point. His floor should perform as it was designed to, and with a poor installation that's not going to happen.
Yah, his floor is performing like one spark plug is missing entirely
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"The only problem I can find is...."It feels like a cheap floating floor""I think YOU need to re-read the OP again if that is all you noticed wrong.
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Oh I read the original post and probably read in way more then was put into that post.
I was suspect that the customer knew so much about the flooring....."Teragren Synergy." Google it. I did.
Now why would a GC be installing flooring?
There is way too much here that isn't passing the smell test....
Flooring installed first but not a problem till months later.
Flooring of choice sold on the net by Amazon?
Installed by GC?
Doing the job correctly not possible at this point?
Sorry I'm not buying it......
You are reading a lot into it. Where does it say that he bought it off amazon. There are 39 flooring stores around Atlanta that sell that bran, I'm sure there are several in the OP's area, wherever that is.Where does it say the problem just started. Maybe he has been chasing the contractor for 8 mos.Not out of the question for the GC to have installed the flooring. My parents have had small remodel jobs done where the GC and one helper did the majority of the work and only subbed small portions.There just isn't enough info posted to really know the whole story.Why so surprised that the homeowner knew the brand name of the flooring. There are lots of products to choose from. Maybe he was deeply involved in the product selection. I wouldn't think that would be all that uncommon.
Why so surprised that the homeowner knew the brand name of the flooring.
Maybe there's an extra carton in the garage for future repairs."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
See I knew someone would come thru and show just how much was left out of the story....
Thank you Tom.
I also noticed this from the original post:"The floor is fully installed. And we are the big losers. He shimmed the floor w/ asphalt shingles? but it just created hollow voids and dips everywhere. Level, but not nearly flat. It feels like a cheap floating floor. This is the 1/2" Teragren Synergy. It seems like a great product, and gorgeous. But obviously the installer treated it like 3/4 hardwood. His comment was that this is acceptable for an older house."
Level, but not nearly flat? How does that work?
Other than using asphalt shingles for shims (I wonder if he used cedar shingles instead and the OP just got confused, but I will take it at face value) I'm not sure there was really anything wrong done.
We installed some 5/16 engineered flooring a few months ago. It looks good on a sample board, but it mars pretty easily and does not have the solid feel of a 3/4" strip floor. The client did get a good deal, so I hope they're happy.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Probably used 3 tabs, archys woulda felt better under foot..them nasty rain channels ya know?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Yeah, I have a lot of questions here on this too, but trying to be polite with guests. I mentioned my suspicion of lowest bidder - and it does sound like the GC is also the prime or only mechanic on site.You raise an interesting Q about the timeline - that if the flooring was installed before the cabs, then it might have been noticed earlier, but if I installed flooring first, I would have it well covered and protected, to the degree that a resident would not have noticed this problem, not to hide it, but to protect the floor.Anyways, that is all in how this came to be, but one fact rises to the top =- that he did NOT install properly because he failed to provide a flat underlayment to lay it on. If he had done that, and it still felt like a cheap floor, it would likely be because it was a cheap floor rather than a cheap install.
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I am not defending poor work or not returning phone calls...As usual, we have half the story replete with incomplete information. We have no idea if the "GC" recommended; replacing the subfloor or adding filler and 3/8" underlayment and was rejected because of money, with the admonishment that the adjoining floor heights must match, etc.Perhaps the H.O. was to take care of the floor install and bailed with the cabinets sitting in the driveway...On the other hand, maybe the guy was just a hack...
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Let's see some pictures.
Was this new work where the flooring was installed?
If not, what was the existing floor finish when the work was quoted, and did the installer see the subfloor or was the floor finish still on when he quoted?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA