I’m getting ready to drywall my bathrooms. Some areas will be tiled. I know that cement board will need to be installed where the tile is used, but I’m uncertain about the usage of greenboard on the ceilings and remaining wall surfaces. Can regular drywall be used anywhere in a bathroom? Can greenboard be used around a tub or shower?
Thanks for any feedback.
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Yes. But dont put tile on it.
Use durrock or equiv (hardi is nice to work with) at the tub shower areas behind tile, and then use greenboard or MR rock for the adjacent areas around the shower/tub.
It is smartest to rock the whole bath in MR but technically not required the way I interpret the code (and inspectors in my area)
I usually have MR above the tile in the tub shower areas if I am not tiling to ceiling, MR on the ceiling above and in vicinity of shower and maybe along the vanity wall minimum.
In January, 2006 the old greenboard was discontinued. Today the new greenboard is also mold resistant. The old greenboard on ceilings had to have joists at 12" OC, not sure about today. You can tile over the old and the new but Hardi backer is much better..stay away from cement board.
Note, some of the new greenboard is not green.Some is purple and some is white (the paperless stuff)..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Zano, why not cement board? I've been considering it for a tile wainscoting project at the house. I do like Hardiebacker and have had considerable experiance installing it (even a tile wainscoting job), but cementboard just seems a little better for longevities sake.
Cement board is difficult to work with, when scored with a knife and cut, it does not break evenly and under long water use it will deteriate. HardiBacker will not be compromised by water.Hartman,The purple board is made National Gypsum.
i've heard a sawzall is the best way to cut cement board, though I can not personaly confirm this. I like Hardie, I've got the stuff hanging on the outside of my house. It has some installation issues, but once up, it is good stuff. You'd think that I wouldn't even second guess putting it in the bathroom, but its the woodfibers in it that concern me. I might just be overthinking it, and heck, its just three feet of the wall anyways.
A sawsal IMO, is one of the worst ways to cut cement board.
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Just use the Kerdi membrane and then no need to use anything else in the shower area. And if you have enough ventilation you won't have mold problems either.
If the drywall gets wet, it fails regardless of the grade. It is important to seal it with a good primer on all drywall installations.
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Do not use any gypsum product in any wet areas, period. No discussion.
Wet areas receive cement board or hardibacker.
Greenboard is only mildew resistant. Resistance is limited up to the second contact with moisture. After that, there is no difference with regular gypsum board. The green chemical is expended.
The green protection sprayed on the board weakens the paper, which gives the board structure, so it should not be used on ceilings. It is rated for 12" O.C. but that usually interferes with lighting schedules, so why bother?
We never use greenboard. Mold is the least of your worries if the sheathing gets wet.
Frankie
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Greenboard does hold up to moisture considerably better than regular drywall. Of course "considerably better" is kind of damning by faint praise, but the difference is significant enough to make the use of greenboard worthwhile in "might get wet sometime" areas.However, as noted, the old greenboard is passe, and there are several newer products that hold up better against moisture.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Let me pose a variation of this theme ....
Supposing one has a small bathroom, with areae not to be tiled. Or, say, you're re-doing the area around the kitchen counter.
Is it possible to treat cement board, or the other tile backers, as ordinary drywall? That is, can you hang them, mud them, sand them, and paint them ... and have it come out blending in with 'regular' drywall?
I ask this for three possible reasons: greater impact strength, some moisture exposure, and the ease of handling smaller pieces in a tight space.
I'll bet you would have better results with texture, orange-peel knockdown, etc......I've never seen it done, though.
The Durock or Wonderboard type material would have a rough surface which I think would be difficult to finish. The Hardibacker is smoother but still doesn't have the tapered edges of drywall which will make producing a smooth joint more difficult. I think it would be difficult to get a good looking finish. You probably don't gain much water resistance if you use regular joint compound and texture materials as they are pretty water sensitive. I presume that you could tape using thinset but you better be good with a trowel as sanding will be hell.
This is the latest tile backer that is becoming popular with archies, good warrantee.
Eliminates the need for additional vapor barrier
http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=4684 Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
"..... a barrier that prevents moisture from entering ...."
Thereby hangs the tail! That is, you can't help but damage that barrier when you penetrate it. While -perhaps- you can get away with the little penetrations for drywall screws, the larger penetrations for plumbing and for mounting heavier things (like sinks) make me wonder.
After all, that's where my bath is failing ... moisture got in behind the inadequately supported sink, and turned the drywall behind the tile into something with the strength of foam rubber.
Still, as the link says, this just may be perfect for behind kitchen backsplashes.
As for surface treatments .... as I think this through .... the joint compound and various textures seem to hold up well, even in fairly wet places. (Popcorn ceilings being another matter). Perhaps they are sealed by the paint, or they aren't thick enough to catch much moisture.
The failures I've seen are from the underlying material becoming saturated, not from some surface blemish. So, perhaps, a skim coat of joint compound over something like DuRock (of a matching thickness to any drywall) just might work.
It's funny how we've done a 180 over the years. I recall when greenboard was 'just the thing' for behind tile, and in shower stalls. Well, time is a harsh critic, and our practices have changed.
As has drywall itself; today's stuff isn't nearly has tough as the older material. Some of it is even noticeably not quite white! Maybe that's why I see a greater use of plywood and blocking behind drywall in certain areas ... the drywall doesn't hold anchors like it used to, either.
I really ought not complain ... the kitchen and bath I'm concerned about were made in 1940. But, time wounds all ... and I have some remodelling in my future.
Hi RenoI must respectfully disagree with you concerning Dens Shield. I use it almost exclusively in my installs, and have been for the last 7 years. In that time I have had no call backs for backer board failure. I use it for the following reasons.1. Light weight.
2. Vaper barrier included
3. Lifetime warranty
4. Cuts and Finishes like drywall (this is in answer to some above posts)
5. Its membrane does not wick moisture form my thin set.1/4" needs to be thinset and screwed.last year I used around 7800 sq ft of 1/4" and a little over 3000 sq ft of 1/2". The 1/4" usage was down because I had a large project ( historic building to condos) that had to be set using self leveling.Thanks CraigEdited 2/8/2009 8:19 pm ET by chairmon
Edited 2/10/2009 1:07 am ET by chairmon
Thank you. This is NOT my area of experience ... and there's often a difference between claims, disclaimers .. and actual experience.
You are welcome.
Yes possible, but I would not use premixed mud for something like that. Go to Durabond hot mix or plaster veneer coat.
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That sounds like a very good idea.
You asked, "Is it possible to treat cement board, or the other tile backers, as ordinary drywall? That is, can you hang them, mud them, sand them, and paint them ... and have it come out blending in with 'regular' drywall?"Yes, it is more work, but not that difficult to do. You need to skimcoat the whole surface; I use hot mud for this, as it is more resistant to moisture, and also a stronger material mechanically.Having only read the first 20 posts, someone else has likely answered you already. I remember Jeff Buck once posted about doing this on one of his jobs.Bill
i agree with frankie. greenboard is useless junk. expensive useless junk.
There is a new drywall that the face "paper" is actually fiberglass. It's a little rougher surface than paper, but it works the same. Some people complain about being itchy working with it, but I've never noticed. It works great, but it seems a little easier to overdrive drywall screws into it.
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DensArmor Plus, baby!!! That is the only thing I buy. I have considered the green stuff, but I think that you guys just made up my mind. I've seen gypsum with a vinyl face, it is being used right now as we speek on a commercial job my company is doing the electrical on. I still don't like the idea of gypsum in a wet location, I don't care what anyone says. I will say one thing about the builders for that job, they're spending allot of money. Greenboard everywhere! I think that it would make a great dry location wallboard, but I'm just sold on the paperless stuff everywhere else. If its good enough for exterior wall sheathing in commercial construction, its good enough for my bathroom!
my 2 cents...I used cement board in our shower, no vapor barrier behind it. Mortared, then 2 coats of that red paint-on moisture barrier membrane (who's name completely escapes me at the moment!)The logic being that it's painted on AFTER the screws, so no penetrations, plus it's closer to the 'wet' side of the wall than a plastic sheet would be behind the cement board.If I ever do it again, though, I'd definitely go with the newer backer boards. Cement board is rather flimsy and rough as hell.AS for the rest of the bath, I went with DensArmor (I also used it for the basement). Cons: It's HEAVY and, yes, you will itch like hell if you work with it in July and refuse to wear sleeves (a few showers usually remedy it). The plus, as stated, is that it's not paper faces, so no issues.Granted, we added a fan when we remodeled the bath, but in the 4 years or so of heavy use (only bath/shower in the house) not a single sign of mildew/mold anywhere.
To take your questions in order:
I know that cement board will need to be installed where the tile is used,
Not necessarily. Cement board (or CBU, as it is known) is required in wet areas that will be tiled. A 'wet area' is defined as any wall, floor, or ceiling that will be exposed to direct contact with water as a result of normal use of the room. Showers, tubs, sink backsplashes and countertops, etc., all qualify as wet areas.
but I'm uncertain about the usage of greenboard on the ceilings and remaining wall surfaces.
'Green'board is specified for humid areas. These are areas in which it is expected that normal occupancy and use will generate high atmospheric humidity, such as laundry rooms and kitchens. The non-splash zones in a bathroom--walls outside the tub/shower enclosure and ceilings--can also qualify as humid areas instead of wet areas, thus greenboard could be used, even where tile will be set in those areas. (An exception must be made for tiled ceilings over tub or shower enclosures; CBU is indicated there.)
Can regular drywall be used anywhere in a bathroom?
Regular gyprock should not be used in a bathroom or any other humid area.
Can greenboard be used around a tub or shower?
Greenboard should not be used in a tub or shower enclosure.
Final note: for all wet or humid areas, the use of thinset is required. Do not use mastic in any wet or humid environment, over any substrate.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
"Regular gyprock should not be used in a bathroom or any other humid area."Is this an East Coast thing? Houses in my tract in So Calif, all built in '65 with regular gyp board in the bathrooms, have not had problems. We do have less than 50% relative humidity most of the year though.BruceT
Edited 2/9/2009 12:41 am by brucet9
You are correct, if regular drywall is not good enough, there is a serious moisture problem that needs to be addressed. Most homes have the lowest grade bath fan there is available and that is the first problem.
And if you use the Kerdi membrane for the shower area, it is waterproof and can be installed right over top of drywall with no need for hardi backer or equivalent.
Houses in my tract in So Calif, all built in '65 with regular gyp board in the bathrooms....
I am not sure MR gyprock existed in 1965; I don't seem to remember hearing about the stuff until sometime in the late seventies. But that could be more me than anything else as I was doing other things in those years and paid little attention to developements in building materials. (When I started building things again, I remember being somewhat surprised at not being able to find Spackle or blue gyprock nails on the shelf at the local big-box store....)
We do have less than 50% relative humidity most of the year though.
There's that 'California Dreamin' again, LOL.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"I am not sure MR gyprock existed in 1965;..."Of course it existed then. The stuff was invented in 1916 as replacement for wood laths for plaster underlayment. My 1965 house is all drywall. No plaster at all. Houses in the next tract over were higher priced and they featured real plaster walls.I know that drywall was used extensively by the late 50's in place of plaster, because I remember seeing advertisements that said "Knock on the walls. Demand REAL lath and plaster."BruceT
""I am not sure MR gyprock existed in 1965;...""MOISTURE RESISTANT that is what he was talking about..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks. I didn't catch that.BruceT
Thank you, sir. You have saved me from my abbreviations....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
definitely do not use greenboard in wet areas like tub or shower surrond. That calls for cement board.
green board is MR which only means moisture resistant, not water proof.
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"definitely do not use greenboard in wet areas like tub or shower surrond. That calls for cement board. green board is MR which only means moisture resistant, not water proof."
OK, this is where I'm confused. I plan to tile around the tub and in the shower stall...but not all the way to the ceiling. What should I install in the perimeter above the shower head? What should be installed on the ceiling?
This house was built in 1969. The bathrooms were partially tiled and it had regular drywall throughout. I didn't find any mold when I gutted it.
BTW, I've noticed that some of you reply to "ALL" with your responses sometimes. I wanted to do that with this response but I couldn't figure it out. How do you guys do that?New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
I use MR and hot mud everywhere in a bathroom except the shower and tub walls.That space immediately above a FG or acrylic shower gets MR.I have seen plenty of places where regular was fine after 20 years, but too many where it was gone to hell after ten years.
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When you click "Reply" and the post screen comes up, click the little down arrow on the "To:" line just above the main editing window and select "ALL".
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I don't seem to have an arrow next to the "To" line. Just the name I'm replying to. Is there a way you could do a screenshot of it?New knowledge is priceless.
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Are you in Basic view?If you are in advanced view you will see this at the very bottom of the messages."Rate My Interest:
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Yep, that's probably it. In basic view the pulldown doesn't show up.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Nope, I don't see any of that stuff. I must be in basic view. How do you switch to advanced view?
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
scroll this screen frame to the bottom below my reply you are reading. You will see the buttons to toggle between basic and advanced right there.
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Sometimes you have to hit "Advanced view" two or three times to get it to take.
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I didn't know that. I only hit it once, way back in the dawn of time when I first signed on here with prospero
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Yeah, same here, except just now when I was experimenting to see what was happening with the To: line. Then I was having problems -- requiring 2-3 clicks to switch each way.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
That did it. Thanks!New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
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The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Go with Densheild above the shower. Its yellow and you can find it at Lowes. Greenboard is more commonly used. If you waterproof the shower surround enough before you paint, it would be fine too.
The last time I used Denshield, it was gray.
`OK, DensArmor..............yellowboard. You can use yellowboard behind tile, but I wouldn't recommend it. Hardibacker or Cementboard would be much better. Use yellowboard for the rest of the bathroom. If yellowboard is too expensive for you (about $15 a board here), than greenboard would be OK too just spend a little extra quality time with your favorite caulking gun.
Edited 2/10/2009 8:16 pm ET by arcflash
denshield behind the tile, and on the wall above the tile also? finish like drywall and paint? or drywall on the painted areas? in the past, i did hardi backer up to the tile line, then drywall above. i used a coped tile edge to cover the transition from hardi to drywall.